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Old 11-26-2018   #41
Guth
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I'm only a hobbyist and not nearly as demanding of my gear as most here are. I ended up with a M6 TTL because the Leica struck me as the most straightforward and well built camera that was being made in 2000 when I was in the market for a new camera. Looking back at things now I'll readily admit that it was really pretty silly of me to purchase the Leica gear given the cost involved and my level of usage. But I had saved my money and that's what I wanted — it was a total geek purchase. Nobody that I knew had even heard of Leica. No one asked about my camera back then because no one cared.

All that said, I will add that I do find the M6 TTL to be a pleasure to use. In my case with 35mm, 50mm and 90mm focal lengths. However, some of those things that I really like about the camera are a turn off to many others here. For example I especially like the configuration and operation of the shutter speed dial. The built-in light meter is also a real benefit for me as I've never learned to gauge exposure on my own. I am finally working on addressing this by trying to gauge the exposure for myself and then checking my chosen exposure against the meter's reading. (Maybe I'd have better luck with this if it were actually sunny here while I'm first attempting to learn this technique.) I even purchased a SF-20 flash a while back. It's easy to use and works well on this camera. A nice to have item if ever needed. Of course there's no telling what the future holds when it comes to my M6 TTL. I honestly have no idea what percentage of these cameras have been impacted by electronics failure thus far but the lack of electronic parts availability is a concern. In addition, as someone pointed out above, the availability of skilled camera technicians down the road will also likely become more of an issue with the passing of time regardless of what model you happen to own.

Good luck with your decision. I hope that whatever model you end up with works out well for your particular needs.
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Old 12-19-2018   #42
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I have no rush and no free money. I'm using it as benefit to read and learn...

1. If I sell as much as I could and wait, I could get used M-A with some luck. (But I like M2 more).
2. I could sell still functioning M4-2 and one lens and get M4-2 after CLA. (I like M4-2).
3. I could sell R2M and one lens and get M2 after CLA.
4. I could sell one lens and get 35 1.4 Nokton for R2M. (I don't like this camera).
5. I could sell one lens and send M4-2 for RF rehaul and new Nikon metal curtains.
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Old 12-19-2018   #43
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You have been given many good advices on which Leica to get.

I have been happy with my M3 and M6. Both a very good film cameras.
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Old 12-19-2018   #44
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Old 12-19-2018   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I have no rush and no free money. I'm using it as benefit to read and learn...
In the time I've spent here on this forum I've really come to appreciate the tie-in between your personal story and your use of Canadian made Leica gear. I've enjoyed the images that you've created with the gear you've used. The Hamilton, Ontario series of images in particular spoke very directly to me. If I'm being selfish I'd simply vote for more of the same. But in the end I hope that you end up with whatever camera appeals the most to you personally and that you get a decade or more of trouble free use out of it. Best of luck to you!
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Old 12-20-2018   #46
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....Of course there's no telling what the future holds when it comes to my M6 TTL. I honestly have no idea what percentage of these cameras have been impacted by electronics failure thus far but the lack of electronic parts availability is a concern...

Hi,

If it will help, I don't think any one knows what percentage of cameras or any make and model have failed; we hear bout the failures on the forums but often people are repeating what they have read elsewhere as a warning.

And no one goes on the www to say they've just put another 36 exp. cassette through their camera and it all worked as it should but thousands of us do it. In your shoes I'd worry when it happens and enjoy it until then.

And by then someone else may have come up with the solution, I'm thinking of the minilux as I type this.

Regards, David
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Old 12-20-2018   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I have no rush and no free money. I'm using it as benefit to read and learn...

1. If I sell as much as I could and wait, I could get used M-A with some luck. (But I like M2 more).
2. I could sell still functioning M4-2 and one lens and get M4-2 after CLA. (I like M4-2).
3. I could sell R2M and one lens and get M2 after CLA.
4. I could sell one lens and get 35 1.4 Nokton for R2M. (I don't like this camera).
5. I could sell one lens and send M4-2 for RF rehaul and new Nikon metal curtains.

1 . Many M-A buyers reported some kind of failure from new.
So even new M-A is not the most "failure free"
why I bought two in (re)place of my older other Ms
untill now, no failure (yet), I cross my fingers.
In your place, I would give M2 a try or


2. Keep your M4-2
3. Keep M2
4. No comment
5. Why not




As side notes...


- used Leica M are sort of loteries good ones are expensive
- in my experience of decades use of Leica M : every M needed repair or CLA every few years of use
- even when repaired or cla_ed, when use with confidence, I had some bad surprises on other parts of that M
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Old 12-20-2018   #48
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Well, I've had most Leicas up to the Typ 240 and I'd say that with film, condition matters more than model: my favourites are the MP (new type) and the M2. My M4-P (from new) was the roughest Leica I've ever owned: it took years of hard use to bed in to smooth running. With digis, I rather lost interest when they adopted the LED viewfinder frame illumination.

Can you put Nikon metal curtains into a Leica?

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-20-2018   #49
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Thank you all for replies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Can you put Nikon metal curtains into a Leica?

Cheers,

R.
In Leica M1-M4 servicing paragraph.
https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/price-list
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Old 12-20-2018   #50
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. . . In Leica M1-M4 servicing paragraph.
https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/price-list
Amazing! Thanks. I didn't know that it was possible. To have EVERYTHING done to my Rapidwinder-equipped M2 would cost about half a grand. If I can find the money I may be tempted!

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-20-2018   #51
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Amazing! Thanks. I didn't know that it was possible. To have EVERYTHING done to my Rapidwinder-equipped M2 would cost about half a grand. If I can find the money I may be tempted!

Cheers,

R.
This is what I'm thinking about while taking my time. Wear resistant curtains, new synthetic light baffle and RF, frames selection service, repair would be 500 USD.
I could have these money after selling of the lens I don't use or R2M.

Yet, M4-2 after CLA is possible at 800 USD...

I feel sentimental to sell this M4-2. First, it was lucky and tricky purchase. It worked as is for year or so. It went all over Canada and to USA and was in Russia with me. It never failed completely. Even after I dropped it on cement sidewalk or it has light leak (still has once in a while) or while something broke in film advance, I was still able to take pictures with it. It is like Soviet WWII bomber. All with holes, one engine shut, but it will bring you back with accomplished mission.
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Old 12-21-2018   #52
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

If it will help, I don't think any one knows what percentage of cameras or any make and model have failed; we hear bout the failures on the forums but often people are repeating what they have read elsewhere as a warning.

And no one goes on the www to say they've just put another 36 exp. cassette through their camera and it all worked as it should but thousands of us do it. In your shoes I'd worry when it happens and enjoy it until then.

And by then someone else may have come up with the solution, I'm thinking of the minilux as I type this.

Regards, David
Thanks David, your thoughts are certainly appreciated. To your point, I made mention of this primarily because it was brought up in the original post. Honestly, I wasn't even aware that this was an issue until joining this forum. So it goes with the search for knowledge.

When it comes to my use of this camera over the long haul, my main concern would be the continued availability of capable talent to work on these cameras as the years pass. I have a wealth of appropriate tools and am competent enough to work on my own cars and motorcycles. In addition there is ample detailed information available online to serve as a further resource to existing service manuals for most any vehicle I've owned. But when it comes to cameras almost none of the above applies. Until some sort of electronic failure actually occurs (and that's if it occurs at all during my continued ownership), there's little benefit to my focusing on (pun intended) the lack of parts availability.

All that said, I'm not familiar with that to which you are referring to regarding the minilux. Since it's not really pertinent to this thread I'll have a look around to see what I can find out instead of asking you to expand any further on this. If you're up to messaging me with more details please do. Again, I do appreciate the thoughts, and agree with the points you've made.
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Old 12-21-2018   #53
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Maybe it is minilux with failing flexi cable, which is available now from non Leica source?
Before this fix became available, the lens from this camera was popular for conversions.
And some individual came with conversion kit.

Main reason why I was thinking about M6 is because it is newer, fresher camera. TTL...
I took M4-2 to Boston and up North to Hanover trip two weeks ago. And I left light meter at home.
The only not good enough exposures were with 1/4 and f1.5. Not enough light.
So, then M6 (TTL) electronics will be not serviceable by Leica (as they already not have some TTL electronics), perhaps someone will come with conversion kit as it was suggested earlier in this thread.
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Old 12-21-2018   #54
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Ko.Fe. you do have lots of options. I've used most of the M Leicas except M7 and M3 (always been a 35 guy). While the M6 has the meter. I like the earlier models with the brass top plate. I don't know which framelines /lenses you prefer, but the M2 (with rapidload upgrade) has always been one of my favourites. I had a new version MP and was almost going to have DAG mask the framelines, when I found a blackpaint M4 in Victoria BC and just sold the MP. There are at the moment both M2 & M4 on E*** for $800-1000 (lowest prices). I did find these smoother operating than the M4-2/M-4P. A well-serviced one should work flawlessly for you
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Old 12-21-2018   #55
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Thank you for the info. I like then it is 35mm and only one framelines.
50mm is also in use, just because the only fast (f1.5) I have is 50mm lens.
I also would like to have 28 frames, but I'm fine with 35 frames all VF or just Winogrand style with external VF.
I'm not going to use e... this time, but those who sell after CLA done by DAG or another two USA based techs. I was in touch with couple of them earlier on and it should be no problem to send camera to Canada.
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Old 12-21-2018   #56
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Ko., I wanted to have my M4 adapted for Leicavit & almost no one had parts, not Horst Wenzel in Vancouver, nor Gary in Midland, or Youxin Ye. So DAG did the cla for me and adapted the 'vit. Smooth as it came out of the factory in '67. Good luck!
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Old 12-21-2018   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Maybe it is minilux with failing flexi cable, which is available now from non Leica source?
Before this fix became available, the lens from this camera was popular for conversions.
And some individual came with conversion kit...

Exactly, and it put paid to the conversions. Although there are still people doing simple conversions to old lenses. Here's one to please Konstantin:-



Actually, I am optimistic about future camera repairs. Someone will look at a failed camera and wonder how to fix it and eventually end up as the international expert on weird repairs to old electronics. It happens all the time because some of us don't like to be twarted.

Regards, David
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Old 12-24-2018   #58
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I'm thinking of replacing two M mount film rangefinders by single Leica.

I have M4-2 which has to go and R2M to follow.
Can't get connected with Bessa. M4-2 ... as RFF member Pioneer mentioned it just an old overobused horsie.

I had Bessa L, R and T before R2M. TTL is handy. I had M4-P and M3.
Newer one was less refined and M3 has no 35mm frames, which is my most and most likely only focal length I'm considering to use.

I would like to have M6 TTL to match M-E controls, but M6 TTL electronics (some of them) are not available anymore as spare parts from Leica.
M6 seems to be not affected, but I might be wrong.

MP, M-A are out of my reach, they are around 4K used.

Yes, M5 is nice, but I like small cameras. One of the reasons I can't get alone with R2M.

So, I'm thinking between M6 and M4. Which one will lasts another ten+ years with available parts and not separating RF optics?
Ok, I am late to this - just seeing it now. BUT . . . KoFe didn't you fairly recently pick up the Bessa virtually new at a good price from someone in British Columbia much to your delight? (yes, I looked it up: January 19, 2018 - you acquired a Bessa 2RM). And you bought that because your M4-2 had a "creeping light leak" and you had previously dumped a perfectly good M3.

I've seen some of your stuff and have liked it - so you know what you are doing, but you seem to be having trouble adjusting yourself to perfectly good equipment - while having the misfortune of attaching yourself to equipment that doesn't work.
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Old 12-24-2018   #59
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Ok, I am late to this - just seeing it now. BUT . . . KoFe didn't you fairly recently pick up the Bessa virtually new at a good price from someone in British Columbia much to your delight? (yes, I looked it up: January 19, 2018 - you acquired a Bessa 2RM). And you bought that because your M4-2 had a "creeping light leak" and you had previously dumped a perfectly good M3.

I've seen some of your stuff and have liked it - so you know what you are doing, but you seem to be having trouble adjusting yourself to perfectly good equipment - while having the misfortune of attaching yourself to equipment that doesn't work.
Very much true indeed...

I'm too emotional. I'm attached to some of my gear. R2M came to me special way. It is not just another camera, but honor and respect.

Yet, since I had it, it was set to go numerios times ...

It is no go camera for traditional neck strap and on the chest (or lower part)
The only way to have it straight on the neck strap (it seems) is via hand grip. It will make this camera even more bulkier than M. And it will worn out its dermantine, rubber and paint on the tin (a.k.a the back door).
I already worn out letters on the back of M-E and lost screw-in thing on M8 VF at very first not coke and burgers hike.

The only way (it seems) to have R2M not trashed is the half-case. But it is same way as sex in condom.
I need no protection from my hand and soul tools. Who plays violin while it is in the wrap?

Currently, I'm trying to convince myself for half-case and wrist strap with R2M. But it just not who I'm. I need both of my hands to articulate while I walk, climb under no trespassing gate, hold abandoned house rails, hug some tree on the steep trail, wipe my sweat and have some water in the bottle. Give a hand to my daughter and else. I need no shmack wrapped to the leather in my hand, it must be on my chest or lower part and not f--g going lens f--g up

So, should I get hand grip to be able to wear it at neck strap and trash it just as mint R was trashed within couple of years? I'm ain't gear collector (thank you as you notice), I'm collecting photos.
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Old 12-25-2018   #60
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Very much true indeed...

I'm too emotional. I'm attached to some of my gear. R2M came to me special way. It is not just another camera, but honor and respect.

Yet, since I had it, it was set to go numerios times ...

It is no go camera for traditional neck strap and on the chest (or lower part)
The only way to have it straight on the neck strap (it seems) is via hand grip. It will make this camera even more bulkier than M. And it will worn out its dermantine, rubber and paint on the tin (a.k.a the back door).
I already worn out letters on the back of M-E and lost screw-in thing on M8 VF at very first not coke and burgers hike.

The only way (it seems) to have R2M not trashed is the half-case. But it is same way as sex in condom.
I need no protection from my hand and soul tools. Who plays violin while it is in the wrap?

Currently, I'm trying to convince myself for half-case and wrist strap with R2M. But it just not who I'm. I need both of my hands to articulate while I walk, climb under no trespassing gate, hold abandoned house rails, hug some tree on the steep trail, wipe my sweat and have some water in the bottle. Give a hand to my daughter and else. I need no shmack wrapped to the leather in my hand, it must be on my chest or lower part and not f--g going lens f--g up

So, should I get hand grip to be able to wear it at neck strap and trash it just as mint R was trashed within couple of years? I'm ain't gear collector (thank you as you notice), I'm collecting photos.
There is no perfect camera. You know what the problem is? Too many options. It used to be like this: you want to have a rangefinder? most advanced is Leica, next is nikon/ contax. If you can buy most advanced, do it. If not buy the next step down. Want a TLR? Rollei.. can´t buy it? Get a Yashica.

Now we have options, forums, film, digital.. companies give you cameras to write about. You can make your own book of photographs also. You can do everything and have anything.
There is no perfect camera. Anyone who says this camera is bliss is lying or dellusional. You just get used to shortcomings.

Get used to your camera and stop buying gear.
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Old 12-25-2018   #61
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There is no perfect camera. Anyone who says this camera is bliss is lying or dellusional. You just get used to shortcomings.

Get used to your camera and stop buying gear.
There are some cameras that feel perfect in your hands and sometimes you need to go through a few to figure that out. That said, once you find something comfortable, you do have to just stop buying and use what you have.
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Old 12-25-2018   #62
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My M3 1155... is 51 years in pro service!
Lots in "Interesting times"..
Was on floor of car between shoots, to protect from theft.
Major services, drum was cracked, shutter curtains replaced,
RF unit replaced 80's.
Vulcanite falling off, chrome worn away showing brass..
I don't believe that your is worn out!
In 1986 my count on M3 more than 5,000 rolls of BW alone..
Constant use since, now in Canada.

Maybe send to Youxin..maybe not factory trained but a natural..
I purchased M6TTL 'cause i "thought" M3 worn out..mm.
That was 18 years ago!
The M6 feels like a cheap copy..
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Old 12-25-2018   #63
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Garry told curtains needs to be new to get rid of light leak, plus frame lines have ghosts after earlier, guick repair (sidewalk dropped, thanks to wrist strap) and I have some dots in RF patch...
The rest is like new, including Asahi Leather. M4-2 was shedding its original vulcanite .

It just came to me this morning. Maybe I could install neck strap mounts on R2M half-case.
To have them in normal position and to have camera not going lens up on me.
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Old 12-25-2018   #64
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Try a black and nickel Leica III (1934/1936). They can be had for next to nothing. Add a SBOOI, a black paint Color Skopar 50mm f/2.5 and an original leather Leica strap from the sixties. Incredible outfit. Lasts forever.


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Old 12-25-2018   #65
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Garry told curtains needs to be new to get rid of light leak, plus frame lines have ghosts after yearlier, guick repair (sidewalk dropped, thanks to wrist strap) and I have some dots in RF patch...
The rest is like new, including Asahi Leather. M4-2 was shedding its original vulcanite .

It just came to me this morning. Maybe I could install neck strap mounts on R2M half-case.
To have them in normal position and to have camera not going lens up on me.
No and no.
1. Why repair a camera (M4-2) that has given you such bad luck? Dump it.
2. Earlier you said that using a half case while shooting a camera is like having sex with a condom on. You also said you don't like the camera. Don't fool around with it - sell it.
With the money from the sales get a M2 and never look back.
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Old 12-25-2018   #66
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No and no.
1. Why repair a camera (M4-2) that has given you such bad luck? Dump it.
2. Earlier you said that using a half case while shooting a camera is like having sex with a condom on. You also said you don't like the camera. Don't fool around with it - sell it.
With the money from the sales get a M2 and never look back.
What´s wrong w/ sex w/ condoms? That´s a bad analogy.
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Old 12-25-2018   #67
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I agree... bad analogy. As my grandma told me when I was 18, "Sex with a condom may be like having a shower with a raincoat on, but at least you're getting a shower...." She had some other, really colorful advice too, and it was good advice in hindsight. Using a half case isn't like a condom in my humble opinion. Also, repairing an older camera can give it years of good life when it is a fundamentally good design, like a Leica.

Scott
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Old 12-25-2018   #68
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MP, M-A are out of my reach, they are around 4K used.
There's an M-A in the Classifies for $2.8k ... maybe that's within your reach.
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Old 12-25-2018   #69
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I checked, if I sew in triangular strap rings to the half-case it should allows to keep R2M as normal camera on the neck strap.
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Old 12-25-2018   #70
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If you don't want the camera to go lens up, then put a heavier lens on it like one of those 0.95 Canon's!

But seriously, Konstantin, most cameras are a compromise in one aspect or another. You did right by asking, but then that invites folks to pile on.

Just write yourself a list of specs that you require, see if anything comes close to matching that, then go with the least different model you find.

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Old 12-25-2018   #71
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I checked, if I sew in triangular strap rings to the half-case it should allows to keep R2M as normal camera on the neck strap.
Or get a 35mm f/1.7 ULTRON. I have the LTM version. It is a very good lens and large enough to keep my Bessa R balanced on its straps. No half case needed. I suppose working this balance thing out, one way or another, is not a bad idea; it keeps the Bessa working for you.

Main point: it will not kill your desire for a M, although he Bessa will always be good as a backup - if you can afford to hold on to it.
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Old 12-25-2018   #72
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After reading through the thread.. I'd go with an M2. I have one and love it. The loading takes a little getting used to, but it's easy once you get the hang of it.

I also use my 28mm lens with an external voigtlander finder. I wear glasses and can see the framelines in the finder, so I use it on my M6 too, since the 28 framelines in that body are useless with glasses.
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Old 12-26-2018   #73
Sumarongi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
The only way (it seems) to have R2M not trashed is the half-case. But it is same way as sex in condom.
I need no protection from my hand and soul tools. Who plays violin while it is in the wrap?
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Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
No and no.
1. Why repair a camera (M4-2) that has given you such bad luck? Dump it.
2. Earlier you said that using a half case while shooting a camera is like having sex with a condom on. You also said you don't like the camera. Don't fool around with it - sell it.
With the money from the sales get a M2 and never look back.
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What´s wrong w/ sex w/ condoms? That´s a bad analogy.
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Originally Posted by skucera View Post
I agree... bad analogy. As my grandma told me when I was 18, "Sex with a condom may be like having a shower with a raincoat on, but at least you're getting a shower...." She had some other, really colorful advice too, and it was good advice in hindsight. Using a half case isn't like a condom in my humble opinion. Also, repairing an older camera can give it years of good life when it is a fundamentally good design, like a Leica.

Scott
Errrm, there have been quite strange —— and actually highly offensive —— things said here.

Simple fact is: For anyone, who loves their country, (heterosexual) sex with condom is high treason, basically.

One has to do it for the Kingdom, the Empire, the Republic —— ergo, there's no place for a condom!
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Old 12-28-2018   #74
skucera
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Well elucidated, sir.

Scott
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1917 No. 1A Autographic Kodak Junior
1940 Kodak 35 Rangefinder
1955 Leica M3
1969 Canon New Canonet QL17-L
1976 Konica Autoreflex T3n
1977 Canon 110ED 20
1979 Minox 35 GL
1979 Olympus XA
1980 Pentax Auto 110
1987 Polaroid Spectra
1996 Canon EOS Elan IIe

Last edited by skucera : 12-28-2018 at 17:42. Reason: Emoji error
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Old 12-28-2018   #75
Ko.Fe.
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How is it in English.. "In a mean while"?


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Old 12-28-2018   #76
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In the meanwhile.

- Murray

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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
How is it in English.. "In a mean while"?

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Old 12-31-2018   #77
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Originally Posted by Sumarongi View Post
Errrm, there have been quite strange —— and actually highly offensive —— things said here.

Simple fact is: For anyone, who loves their country, (heterosexual) sex with condom is high treason, basically.

One has to do it for the Kingdom, the Empire, the Republic —— ergo, there's no place for a condom!
Oh, "highly offensive" - oh gee whiz - my grandmother had more moxy. Pathetic.
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Old 12-31-2018   #78
Sumarongi
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Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
Oh, "highly offensive" - oh gee whiz - my grandmother had more moxy. Pathetic.
Furrfu much? Then I'm so sorry
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Old 12-31-2018   #79
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You have been given many good advices on which Leica to get.
+1

Just don't understand this attraction to the M4-2 when it has been very nearly the death of you - by which I mean it has been a money sink or a bottomless pit. Old expression fits here - avoid "throwing good money after bad." Take your lumps and move on.

The Bessa 2RM is more or less in the same category - keeping a camera you don't like? Perhaps . . . but that invites the question - why, to what end? As it is new and reliable, I could see it as a back up camera for a while. In other words it is more useful than the M4, but ultimately not what you want.

It seems you know you want a M2. Sell the M4-2 and get it.
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Old 12-31-2018   #80
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Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
+1

Just don't understand this attraction to the M4-2 when it has been very nearly the death of you - by which I mean it has been a money sink or a bottomless pit. Old expression fits here - avoid "throwing good money after bad." Take your lumps and move on.

The Bessa 2RM is more or less in the same category - keeping a camera you don't like? Perhaps . . . but that invites the question - why, to what end? As it is new and reliable, I could see it as a back up camera for a while. In other words it is more useful than the M4, but ultimately not what you want.

It seems you know you want a M2. Sell the M4-2 and get it.
Thank you for keep on checking on me!
With neck strap applied to the half case it made big difference.
I went on 10km hike with R2M on me yesterday and it was not driving me nuts. Just not Leica, but OK camera. VF is super clean, RF is so so due to short base. .

Now I could sell M4-2 as is and get another M4-2 after CLA.
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