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Old 11-15-2018   #41
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Hi Murray,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMur12 View Post
I've read elsewhere that the shorter shutter-to-flange distance in mirrorless cameras allows lens designers to produce lenses better matched to the performance characteristics of digital sensors. I would be curious to know more about this, myself.

- Murray
there is a lot of marketing and misinformation in such statements. From a technical point of view it only matters (a bit) in the field of extreme wide angle lenses (below 20mm) with wide apertures. They can be easier designed (and could be a bit cheaper) compared to (D)SLR extreme wide angle lenses.
But even as they could be made simpler and cheaper, they won't be cheaper offered.
We clearly see that for years now: Manufacturers offer their mirrorless products always at higher prices compared to DSLR counterparts. Whether this is because of much higher R&D costs, or just to get higher profit margins, I don't know. Mirrorless is more expensive compared to DSLR.

Concerning lenses: We have such excellent lenses for (D)SLRs even for extreme wide angles (and wide apertures) so the evidence is clear: Excellent performing lenses can be made and are be made in this field for SLRs, too.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 11-15-2018   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The appeal is less mechanical complication, quieter and hopefully more reliable operation operation for some purposes,
Concerning more reliable operation: In all the decades I am using SLRs and DSLRs I have never had one single problem with the mirror. Never, nothing, nada.
I am not convinced that an EVF will work for decades without problems. Have TVs or computer monitors life spans of decades? No, they haven't.

But I know from friends with their mirrorless cameras that they have more problems with dust on the sensor of their mirrorles cameras (the mirror is a kind of protection for dust, and that protection is gone with mirrorless).
And one has damaged his sensor because the camera with lens was pointed into direct sun light. You have to be really careful with mirrorless in such situations. DSLRs are robust and not in danger in such situations.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 11-15-2018   #43
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Something that's been baffling me a bit lately is the appeal of the new mirrorless cameras from Canon and Nikon.

I had thought that the appeal of mirrorless cameras was that they could be made smaller and lighter than SLRs and loose the big prism bump. Also that you could make smaller and lighter lenses.

However the new Canon and Nikons don't seem to be any less large and bulky than a traditional DSLR and the lenses are simarly larger.

So what are the advantages of it, from a consumer standpoint? I can't imagine that mirror blackout is that big of any issue for anybody really.
...
"If you want to lose weight, your best bet is to follow the latest diet."
"The department will become more profitable because it has been reorganized."
"Upgrading all your software to the most recent versions will make your system more reliable."
"Things are bad with party A in charge, thus party B will bring an improvement if they're elected."
"If you want to make friends, you have to wear the latest fashion and the trendiest gadgets."
...

Appeal to novelty
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Old 11-15-2018   #44
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Concerning more reliable operation...
I am not convinced that an EVF will work for decades without problems. Have TVs or computer monitors life spans of decades? No, they haven't.
Who seriously considers long-term reliability for digital cameras?

They're disposable tools, with the expectation that they'll be replaced in a few years - like modern cars - before components start failing through age and wear and tear.

I would never rely on a digital camera that's over about 5 years old. When my main camera is about 3-5 years old, it's replaced - always.

In addiction to reliability, I upgrade to gain useful advances in technology that make a real difference to my photography - higher usable ISO, and better dynamic range, image stabilisation, etc. Sony's pixel shifting is one I'm keeping an eye on - it noticeably increases the subtlety of colours and tone.

This is not change because of novelty but from necessity (i.e. need for reliability) and useful new features (i.e. improving my photography or ease of use).

In my view, a good mirrorless camera beats a good SLR hands down when considered only from the viewpoint of which is the most effective at capturing the picture you intend to take - simply because it does everything an SLR does but better.
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Old 11-15-2018   #45
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The main appeal of mirrorless cameras is that soon they will be the only cameras in production.
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Old 11-15-2018   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC View Post
Who seriously considers long-term reliability for digital cameras?

They're disposable tools, with the expectation that they'll be replaced in a few years - like modern cars - before components start failing through age and wear and tear.

I would never rely on a digital camera that's over about 5 years old. When my main camera is about 3-5 years old, it's replaced - always.
My opinion is different both from an economical and ecological point of view:
1. I am not so rich that I could afford an expensive digital system camera (no matter whether DSLR or DSLM) every 3-5 years. I have to support my family.
2. Replacing digital cameras just after only 3-5 years is very bad for the environment. Production of digital cameras has a very high negative impact on the environment because of sensor production. It is a very polluting industry.

I am using my cameras as long as possible (film and digital). My oldest DSLR is about 14 years old and still working (meanwhile used as a backup). Best for my wallet and the environment.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 11-15-2018   #47
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The main appeal of mirrorless cameras is that soon they will be the only cameras in production.
Completely wrong. DSLRs and SLRs will stay.

The same (complete production stop) has been told in the past concerning rangefinder cameras and instant film cameras.
But what happened instead? Just the opposite.
The demand for Leica film rangefinder cameras is increasing (official from Leica at last Photokina).
And instant film cameras are now the most successful camera type in the photography market:
Last year about 8 million instant film cameras (Fuji Instax, Lomography instax cameras, MINT, Leica Sofort) were sold.
For comparison:
Only 4.1 million DSLM cameras have been sold last year (and about 7.5 million DSLRs).
DSLMs had their peak sales already in 2012: Since then no growth anymore in that market. And despite all the new DSLM cameras this year the market demand is also flat this year so far.

Currently the manufacturers invest lots of money in this flat market. Some DSLM manufacturers (like Olympus) haven't made any significant profits in this market for years. With the increased competition now I would not be surprised if another 1-2 brands have to follow Samsung in the future and stop producing DSLM cameras because they can't make a profit in this overcrowded market.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 11-15-2018   #48
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Old 11-15-2018   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
My opinion is different both from an economical and ecological point of view:
1. I am not so rich that I could afford an expensive digital system camera (no matter whether DSLR or DSLM) every 3-5 years. I have to support my family.
2. Replacing digital cameras just after only 3-5 years is very bad for the environment. Production of digital cameras has a very high negative impact on the environment because of sensor production. It is a very polluting industry.

I am using my cameras as long as possible (film and digital). My oldest DSLR is about 14 years old and still working (meanwhile used as a backup). Best for my wallet and the environment.

Cheers, Jan
I can appreciate that. I'm coming from purely an image-making viewpoint - what will make my photography easier or better.

But I get the environmental angle. I made the decision a couple of years ago to buy only used electronics when feasible - so my new Sony A7R II is only new to me. The amount of e-waste and the speed it's increasing at is worrying...
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Old 11-15-2018   #50
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Good for you. I've not had any quit on me either. But plenty do have problems... and the Nikon F that I was given had a jammed mirror from years of sitting.

Dust on the sensor of a mirrorless camera is inevitable since the sensor is exposed by default to provide the through lens viewing. The shutter in a RF or a SLR shrouds the sensor, not the SLR's mirror. But I get just about the same amount of dust on my Ms as I got on my SL or CL. And E-1, and D750, and *istDS, and K10D, etc etc.

Of the benefits I mentioned, the most important one to me is the better viewfinder of an electronic TTL camera for various purposes that I happen to find myself working a lot. Absolute framing and focusing accuracy, the ability to see DoF live, the ability to see better in very low light circumstances, and the ability to work with any lens, consistently and efficiently, that I can rig onto the front of the camera means a lot more to me than decades of use. I'm not going to last that many more decades myself, and I'm going to buy new equipment along the way anyway, so why be kidding myself about decades of use?

My only remaining DSLR is now 15+ years old. It's still working very nicely. I expect it and my M-D and my CL to still be making nice photos as I approach my 80s, another 15 years from now. Whether I'm still making photographs at that time remains to be seen. Whatever other equipment I've acquired in that time may get the bulk of my use anyway.

But enough of this silly thread. They're cameras, just like the pinhole, instant film, point and shoot, RF, and SLR devices are cameras. They're the unimportant part of photography. The photographs are far more important, however you make them.

G
Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Concerning more reliable operation: In all the decades I am using SLRs and DSLRs I have never had one single problem with the mirror. Never, nothing, nada.
I am not convinced that an EVF will work for decades without problems. Have TVs or computer monitors life spans of decades? No, they haven't.

But I know from friends with their mirrorless cameras that they have more problems with dust on the sensor of their mirrorles cameras (the mirror is a kind of protection for dust, and that protection is gone with mirrorless).
And one has damaged his sensor because the camera with lens was pointed into direct sun light. You have to be really careful with mirrorless in such situations. DSLRs are robust and not in danger in such situations.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 11-15-2018   #51
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Surprised no one mentioned video as an advantage of mirrorless. Mirrorless use phase detection vs contrast AF for most DSLRs. DSLRs have better battery life. There are advantages to EVF as previously mentioned. However, I'll take the better battery life over the EVF. I'm on team DSLR but get the appeal of mirrorless.
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Old 11-15-2018   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Cameras can be too small. My Olympus OMD-EM10mk2 is so tiny I had to add the optional grip to make it more comfortable to use. But the lenses are very small, so it remains balanced.
I find my D850 much more comfortable to use than my Z7, because it is bigger. I have medium sized hands and it just fits perfectly. The Z7, and all it's competitors, are really only comfortable when you add a grip. Which makes it larger.. Z7 does not have a grip at the moment.

Ultimately the deal is they use the same size sensor as the equivalent DSLR, so the lenses will be the same size. Upside for me vs my D850, is that I can use any lens on it with adapters (so it may replace my Leica depending on how well it works with wides), the single point AF absolutely nails focus 100% of the time at 1.4 with my Sigma Art lenses (D850 is about 80%), the incredible EVF (best I've used) which makes manual focus crazy easy even w/o aids, and the ability to see the actual exposure real time is perfect.
Huss,

If you are still looking at this thread, are you finding the files from the Z7 to be better, worse, or the same as the files from the D850 in terms of malleability, color depth, usable dynamic range, etc?
Or, too early to tell yet?

Larry
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Old 11-15-2018   #53
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Quote:
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Surprised no one mentioned video as an advantage of mirrorless. Mirrorless use phase detection vs contrast AF for most DSLRs. DSLRs have better battery life. There are advantages to EVF as previously mentioned. However, I'll take the better battery life over the EVF. I'm on team DSLR but get the appeal of mirrorless.
Don't really get the wailing about battery life - my Sony A7R II takes about 250-350 photos per battery. People seem to think that's terrible but that's at least a day's photography. (Or 10 rolls of film in old money.) If you're shooting much more than that without good reason, you're doing photography wrong...!

Also, it's not exactly time consuming to change a battery. Faster than, hmm..., loading film!
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Old 11-15-2018   #54
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Quote:
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Don't really get the wailing about battery life - my Sony A7R II takes about 250-350 photos per battery.
I'd be delighted if my little Sony a6000 did that well. I think it uses the same battery as the A7.... But I might get about 40-50 photos and then the battery life is displayed at something like only 30% remaining. Maybe my battery is just a dud (both of them).
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Old 11-15-2018   #55
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I own two mirrorless cameras.

One is an iPad.

The second is an iPhone.
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Old 11-15-2018   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
Huss,

If you are still looking at this thread, are you finding the files from the Z7 to be better, worse, or the same as the files from the D850 in terms of malleability, color depth, usable dynamic range, etc?
Or, too early to tell yet?

Larry
Hi Larry

I'm kinda the last person to ask that question as I minimally process my files! And I really only use these cameras to scan film - but once my Leica adapter arrives for the Z7, I may actually use it as a camera!

This thread may answer your questions though:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1570123
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Old 11-15-2018   #57
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Quote:
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Don't really get the wailing about battery life - my Sony A7R II takes about 250-350 photos per battery. People seem to think that's terrible but that's at least a day's photography. (Or 10 rolls of film in old money.) If you're shooting much more than that without good reason, you're doing photography wrong...!

Also, it's not exactly time consuming to change a battery. Faster than, hmm..., loading film!
People using the Nikon Z7 are getting 1500 shots per battery charge.
So one Nikon battery = 5 Sony batteries.

Something to consider.
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Old 11-15-2018   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post

But I know from friends with their mirrorless cameras that they have more problems with dust on the sensor of their mirrorles cameras (the mirror is a kind of protection for dust, and that protection is gone with mirrorless).
And one has damaged his sensor because the camera with lens was pointed into direct sun light. You have to be really careful with mirrorless in such situations. DSLRs are robust and not in danger in such situations.

Cheers, Jan
My friend has had trouble with dust, a lot of trouble.
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Old 11-15-2018   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
People using the Nikon Z7 are getting 1500 shots per battery charge.
So one Nikon battery = 5 Sony batteries.
This, exactly. I don't necessarily think its a mirrorless vs. DSLR issue; Sony just has crummy batteries. I can use my DSLRs daily or leave them on a shelf for months and the charge barely goes down much at all. But if I shoot with my a6000 on Saturday, I MUST re-charge the battery or I won't be using it on Sunday at all.
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Old 11-15-2018   #60
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Quote:
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This, exactly. I don't necessarily think its a mirrorless vs. DSLR issue; Sony just has crummy batteries. I can use my DSLRs daily or leave them on a shelf for months and the charge barely goes down much at all. But if I shoot with my a6000 on Saturday, I MUST re-charge the battery or I won't be using it on Sunday at all.
I use an AR72 and A7s and the battery life is an issue if you`re using them all day for sports photography .

Constantly having to check the charge even when they haven`t been used other than that and the EVF blackout they`re great for the general stuff .

Like mine a lot but still use a DSLR for the action stuff …. well when I know that I`m going to be out all day.
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Old 11-15-2018   #61
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My friend has had trouble with dust, a lot of trouble.
When I had my home darkroom, I had lots of trouble with dust on negatives. When I scanned film, I also had trouble with dust. I have a lot less trouble with dust on sensors.

Batteries last a pretty long time if you don't machine gun every shot you make. Besides, you can easily carry a spare or two. They're small.
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Old 11-15-2018   #62
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. Besides, you can easily carry a spare or two. They're small.
They're too small, that's the problem.
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Old 11-15-2018   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Hi Larry

I'm kinda the last person to ask that question as I minimally process my files! And I really only use these cameras to scan film - but once my Leica adapter arrives for the Z7, I may actually use it as a camera!

This thread may answer your questions though:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1570123
Thanks, Huss.
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Old 11-15-2018   #64
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I am using Leica SL, fantastic EVF easily and precisely to focus manual lenses and great 24-90mm zoom. I would never go back to that ancient rangefinder system that goes out of alignment.
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Old 11-15-2018   #65
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Quote:
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No, dear Murray,
exactly the opposite is true! Have a look how much more complicated the most recent 1.8/50mm lens formulas for the new full-frame MILCs are —— they're Retrofocus! Hence the increased size, weight and bulk...
Nope, they are not truly "retrofocus". Instead, they are telecentric, or at least partially so. This does result in rather complex optical designs, but it eliminates, or at least massively reduces, the issues with sensor caused image faults at the edges.
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Old 11-15-2018   #66
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My friend has had trouble with dust, a lot of trouble.
I don't know about my friends, but I've never had issues with dust on mirrorless sensors. Perhaps Olympus' dust reduction tech works?
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Old 11-15-2018   #67
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Quote:
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When I had my home darkroom, I had lots of trouble with dust on negatives. When I scanned film, I also had trouble with dust. I have a lot less trouble with dust on sensors.

Batteries last a pretty long time if you don't machine gun every shot you make. Besides, you can easily carry a spare or two. They're small.
Those new cameras are wonderfull. DSLRs make your ass look too big.
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Old 11-15-2018   #68
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I've been experimenting with an Oly Pen-F. It's similar to my Canon G11, with an EVF instead of a teeny OVF, an interchangeable lens, and a crapload more megapixels. At this point, I kind of prefer the Canon, but the Oly is growing on me. The OK EVF is a whole lot better than a teensy OVF. I like having the camera parameters visible in the VF. Subjectively, the Canon feels more durable than the Oly. I think the technology is better in the Oly mirrorless camera, and it may eventually displace the G11 if it holds up, but I'm not giving up my SLR for it.


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Old 11-15-2018   #69
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I've been using a Fuji HS30 mirrorless since 2013 as my main digital. It's light and quick and for the most part performs nicely except I've hit its limits. For prints larger than 8x10 the image quality just isn't there. The images are kinda rough when enlarged more, and yes, I know the small sensor is the main reason.

I very recently picked up a X-T10 and that's similar but has much better image quality at the sizes I like to print.

I like the size and weight. Many of the new DSLRs are heavy and have a "standard" lens about the size of a peanut butter jar.

I need a viewfinder. I just can't compose holding out a camera in front of me and trying to do it on a screen.

No mirror slap!

Now I know this thread is mostly about the new full frame mirrorless cameras, so I'm assuming that the weight and size issue, including the size of the lenses for those cameras, will be there, at least to an extent.
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Old 11-15-2018   #70
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Quote:
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Something that's been baffling me a bit lately is the appeal of the new mirrorless cameras from Canon and Nikon.

I had thought that the appeal of mirrorless cameras was that they could be made smaller and lighter than SLRs and loose the big prism bump. Also that you could make smaller and lighter lenses.

However the new Canon and Nikons don't seem to be any less large and bulky than a traditional DSLR and the lenses are simarly larger.

So what are the advantages of it, from a consumer standpoint? I can't imagine that mirror blackout is that big of any issue for anybody really.
It's true. The weight of the z6/z7 is close to the D750 I have thought about buying for years now. I have put it off because of the shutter problems I read so much about over the years. Also, I wanted a quieter shutter. I rented one in 2015.

For me, the z6 offers that quiet shutter or silent shutter. It is only slightly less for weight with the adapter, maybe 100 grams. Not enough to make a difference. I prefer using a tilt/swivel lcd to compose on. I've always found view finders sub optimal for me. Wish the z's had full swivel lcd's and not just tilt. The d750 has a tilt screen but live view is very slow.

But the z6 has ibis. I also don't have to worry about auto focus fine tune. Focus with the mirror-less body should be spot on.

I have nikon lenses I could use with the z6 via adapter. The body is smaller than the d750. I have read that auto focus in low light can hunt. I would have to check that out.

24mp is plenty for me. I don't need 45mp. Besides, I feel the z7 should have 2 card slots, back lit buttons, better auto focus, etc. for the price nikon is asking...

so, some reasons why I am thinking about a full frame nikon z6. Oh, I also wish nikon would do a pancake 40mm lens for the z. The 3 lenses offered so far seem enormous.

It isn't for everyone. And I do shoot with a ricoh grll and an olympus m1v2. Image quality from these is very good. I have different needs for the full frame.

Still. I am thinking about this. Will try the z body at my local camera store. Take my time. Try and be patient.

I wonder about a leica Q2. I wonder about the panasonic full frame to come. How about the Olympus bigger body coming in January.

Honestly, I would try for an older leica with one or two lenses, but I want/need auto focus.

Will do something soon. Life is short. Want to get on with this while I still have time.
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Old 11-15-2018   #71
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I encountered a guy doing aerial real estate photography with a drone next door yesterday. His choice of camera was an A7R for the lack of weight compared to his pro Nikon gear that he uses for other stuff. He mentioned he was very happy with the image quality.
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Old 11-15-2018   #72
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not about the new offerings mentioned, being big, but generally about mirrorless:
small is a main charm for me. For the same reason I am using adapted RF lenses.
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Old 11-15-2018   #73
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I encountered a guy doing aerial real estate photography with a drone next door yesterday. His choice of camera was an A7R for the lack of weight compared to his pro Nikon gear that he uses for other stuff. He mentioned he was very happy with the image quality.
I encountered a real estate guy a couple weeks ago using an a7 + drone w/go pro setup. Camera had some China made ultra wide which he said had nil distortion. His most interesting comment however was that he was paid 200 a house and does 2 a day 5 days a week for the past couple years.
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Old 11-16-2018   #74
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One thing I will lament about most mirrorless cameras is the lack of optical viewfinders. The main reason my main cameras are the Fuji X-Pro and X100 is the inclusion of optical viewfinders. While electronic viewfinders have many pluses, there are times when a good optical finder is superior. For instance, I'm an eyeglass wearer and on bright sunny days I often find EVFs become almost unusable due to the high contrast light and the sunbeams that hit the eyepiece from the side. I was reminded of this yesterday when I was using my X-T1 in the afternoon and I had to go through contortions to try and block that stray light.

Of course, when shooting inside or in very low light conditions, EVFs are superior. The beauty of the Fuji X-Pro and X-100 cameras is that they have both electronic and optical finders. It's nice to have options.
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Old 11-16-2018   #75
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Originally Posted by RichC View Post
Don't really get the wailing about battery life - my Sony A7R II takes about 250-350 photos per battery. People seem to think that's terrible but that's at least a day's photography. (Or 10 rolls of film in old money.) If you're shooting much more than that without good reason, you're doing photography wrong...!

Also, it's not exactly time consuming to change a battery. Faster than, hmm..., loading film!
Oh -- I totally get the battery life thing. Ever shoot a wedding? You will easily hit the battery limit then have to swap out. Not something I'd want to worry about. To me the posted limits are akin to point-n-shoot digitals where battery life was always a concern. Never a concern on DSLRs. You're minimizing the battery life issue. I had digicams with terrible battery life. Who'd want to go back to that? Always in fear of running out of juice, "hoping" you charged that other battery. No thanks. The Nikon Z6 has a limit of 310 shots. Not bad but not good. And comparing 310 shots to "X rolls of film" is false equivalency. Nobody shoots digital "that" way.
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Old 11-16-2018   #76
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Originally Posted by vladimir View Post
I am using Leica SL, fantastic EVF easily and precisely to focus manual lenses and great 24-90mm zoom. I would never go back to that ancient rangefinder system that goes out of alignment.
LoL what a thing to write on RANGEFINDERforum

I however feel you... after discovering Olympus and IBIS in 2013 and all the new possibilities and things it can do over rangefinder I look at my film leicas as relics of the past now. They are still very fun to use, but it feels like a restriction in a lot of ways.
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Old 11-16-2018   #77
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I think I have enough stuff already. No appeal for me.
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Old 11-16-2018   #78
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Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
The Nikon Z6 has a limit of 310 shots. Not bad but not good. And comparing 310 shots to "X rolls of film" is false equivalency. Nobody shoots digital "that" way.
Nobody? I shoot digital like film. I carry an extra battery and rarely need it. I doubt I am the only one. Fortunately, I don't shoot weddings. Most photographers don't.
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Old 11-16-2018   #79
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Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
One thing I will lament about most mirrorless cameras is the lack of optical viewfinders. The main reason my main cameras are the Fuji X-Pro and X100 is the inclusion of optical viewfinders. While electronic viewfinders have many pluses, there are times when a good optical finder is superior. For instance, I'm an eyeglass wearer and on bright sunny days I often find EVFs become almost unusable due to the high contrast light and the sunbeams that hit the eyepiece from the side.
I really don't care if it's optical or electronic, just so it's eye-level and I can compose with it. I will often compose with both eyes open, using the viewfinder for framing. I tend to do it with RFs too.

Now I do admit that the viewfinder on the HS30 is not as clean and clear as an optical finder. It's obviously a video type image. However, on the X-T20 it's much better. I actually don't realize it's electronic unless I think of it.

I wear glasses (nearsighted since teens) but I often go without them. I've never had issues with the viewfinders with or without glasses. Both of the Fujis have the convenient corrector dial which is easy to adjust either way. On the Pentaxes I clip on a kind of makeshift corrector when I shoot without glasses.
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Old 11-16-2018   #80
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we always had different cameras: tlr, slr, rangefinder, view cameras. Mirrorless is just another type. It happens to be small, precise, light w/ sensors that record night scenes like it was never done before.

DSLRs are much better at battery life and capturing action.Mirrorless is much better at street style photography w/ itīs lightweight and small size.

Each format excells at certain disciplines. Each photographer has itīs favourites. Some photographers shoot them all.
I like cameras but I am a photographer and i shoot w/ the best tool for what i have in mind. It can be any format. It can be Film if i want to have a physical file. Digital if i want a kind of color. This or that camera. No camera is perfect. Images are perfect.
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