Old 10-25-2018   #241
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if you had shown that leaked image to a group of 10 leica film/digital shooters with no explanation, id bet hard money that at least 8 of them would have expected it to be functional.

hindsight is 20/20, as they say.
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Old 10-25-2018   #242
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the other 2 being the cynics?
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Old 10-25-2018   #243
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Still think there are too many user aids:
Monochrome sensor with no light meter or auto exposure and WORM SD cards is the way to go ;-)
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Old 10-25-2018   #244
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This is a toy, not a camera.

Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function. There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.

Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. It's no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery. Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.

I'd call it a joke. But it's not funny. Just sad.

Leica isn't the only company doing this - it seems to be a growing trend. Someone mentioned motorcycles earlier - the modern Triumph Bonneville is a pathetic pastiche with its fake carbs. And there was that awful Yashica with "digital film".

The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave...!
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Old 10-25-2018   #245
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I guess I don't get it. People have been paying up to $200 for various Thumbs Up models for over 10 years, which is nothing more than a fake advance lever.

Think of it this way, getting an M10-D saves that expense!

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Old 10-25-2018   #246
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if i were in charge of leica, i would have redesigned the body so that it wouldn't need a fake film advance lever for a rear grip. authenticity is part of the leica brand, after all. they should be reinforcing it, not spoiling it!
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Old 10-25-2018   #247
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Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
I guess I don't get it. People have been paying up to $200 for various Thumbs Up models for over 10 years, which is nothing more than a fake advance lever.
....
Not everyone buys ... or wants ... those things, ya know?

G
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Old 10-25-2018   #248
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Originally Posted by RichC View Post
This is a toy, not a camera.

Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function. There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.

Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. Its no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery. Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.

I'd call it a joke. But it's not funny. Just sad.

Leica isn't the only company doing this - it seems to be a growing trend. Someone mentioned motorcycles earlier - the modern Triumph Bonneville is a pathetic pastiche with its fake carbs. And there was that awful Yashica with "digital film".

The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave...!
The Leica M is only one product line in Leica Photo's portfolio of cameras, lenses, and accessories. And likely the least relevant to the "innovation edge" of the company.

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Old 10-25-2018   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC View Post
This is a toy, not a camera.

Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function. There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.

Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. Its no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery. Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.

I'd call it a joke. But it's not funny. Just sad.

Leica isn't the only company doing this - it seems to be a growing trend. Someone mentioned motorcycles earlier - the modern Triumph Bonneville is a pathetic pastiche with its fake carbs. And there was that awful Yashica with "digital film".

The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave...!
Couldn’t have said it better!
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Old 10-25-2018   #250
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Originally Posted by RichC View Post
This is a toy, not a camera.

Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function. There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.

Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. It's no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery. Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.

I'd call it a joke. But it's not funny. Just sad.

Leica isn't the only company doing this - it seems to be a growing trend. Someone mentioned motorcycles earlier - the modern Triumph Bonneville is a pathetic pastiche with its fake carbs. And there was that awful Yashica with "digital film".

The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave...!
I think Leica, once past the very early days, was never leading with technology especially when compared to Nikanon. How long did Nikanon have meters in their cameras. Leica is still not auto focus THANK GOD. Leica as they are now are making cameras that no one else makes, that are for photographers not gadget hounds. I have no desire to have one of these cameras but I do have an M 10 and it is the finest 135 digital camera I have shot with and I have shot with and owned a fair amount of digital cameras. Plus how much of all the technology gets in the way. For me most of it. That's why I prefer Leica M.

I am not rich. I am a full time professional photographer and have been for over 3 decades. I shoot with Leica M digital because it matches the way I see and work period. I never liked the gadget heavy cameras from the big two. As I said if this camera like many collectors items Leica makes helps keep them financially sound so they can make cameras like the M 262 MD, M Monochrom and M 10 then I say rock on. At least these are cameras that no one else is making and gives me a choice other than all the one size fits all cameras that are everywhere already.
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Old 10-25-2018   #251
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Originally Posted by RichC View Post
This is a toy, not a camera.

Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function. There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.

Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. It's no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery. Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.

I'd call it a joke. But it's not funny. Just sad.

Leica isn't the only company doing this - it seems to be a growing trend. Someone mentioned motorcycles earlier - the modern Triumph Bonneville is a pathetic pastiche with its fake carbs. And there was that awful Yashica with "digital film".

The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave...!
Negative much? The mirrorless Leica SL is an amazing camera and was ground breaking when it came out not long ago, so is the S, and they still build some of the best lenses (and sports optics) out there. Their cameras are still minimalistic and focus on the essential, exactly the opposite of what you claim. Plus, it is the only camera company that still produces film cameras (M-A, MP) and support the community. Their stores (yes, they have stores, how many other camera stores are there still out there?) have great programs for the photographic community (book reviews, photos critiques, workshops, film screenings, photo walks, etc).

To me, everything you said above is wrong, including motorcycles. There are amazing motorcycles out there. Have you checked out BMW's safety features on their motos?
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Old 10-25-2018   #252
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Not everyone buys ... or wants ... those things, ya know?
This is true, but I've never seen them referred to as a 'joke' before.

I have no intention of buying this camera, so I have no opinion on the matter, other than perhaps they should have done this with their first M digital; every M Leica user at that moment in time was a film shooter, and quite familiar with the 'wind lever as support.' Perhaps there would have been a lot less snark about it back then!
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Old 10-25-2018   #253
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it is the only camera company that still produces film cameras (M-A, MP) and support the community. Their stores (yes, they have stores, how many other camera stores are there still out there?) have great programs for the photographic community (book reviews, photos critiques, workshops, film screenings, photo walks, etc).
All good, if only they'd upgrade their service department...
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Old 10-25-2018   #254
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All good, if only they'd upgrade their service department...
Totally agree. Something that they really need to address.

I had heard that they were thinking of going to pro service system like CPS.
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Old 10-25-2018   #255
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Negative much? [...]
It's Debbie Downer week, apparently
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Old 10-25-2018   #256
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the other 2 being the cynics?
Yes, I suppose so. Perhaps, people that have lost faith in the M system over the past decade or two.

Leica did such a stellar job with the M10, it's a shame to see them tarnish that design so quickly.
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Old 10-25-2018   #257
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If Leica went out of business...or axed its camera dept forever..people would be clamoring for this camera like no other Leica ever made...esp with the weenie..thingy..lol..
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Old 10-25-2018   #258
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This is a toy, not a camera.
It is a completely capable camera up to modern standards... how is it a toy?

Quote:
Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function.
But they haven't been since the first SLRs hit the market in the late 50s. Yet, they are making one of the only cameras that is true to its original form from 70 years ago!

Quote:
There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.
Come on...it was always expensive and was never no frills. A no-frills or no frills service or product is one for which the non-essential features have been removed to keep the price low.

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Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. It's no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery.
What is fake about a 24mp camera with great lenses?

Quote:
Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.
Well, a little bit fair, but also a little bit nitpicking since it is a special model...the M10 is perfectly fine if you want a screen and lack of film lever grip.
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Old 10-25-2018   #259
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"The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave..."

Amen to that one. That was an art movement that was way, way ahead of it's time, and that's why many of the Bauhaus designs are still highly relevant. They had some incredibly talented and unique design people involved in that movement. I can't even imagine who actually comes up with these Leica ideas and designs. Focus Groups Gone Wild I suppose.
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Old 10-25-2018   #260
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Trust me, Leica is perfectly capable of making joke cameras. In fact, they seem to have made a long tradition of doing just that. This one is nice!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-R4-35...:pf:0&LH_BIN=1
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Old 10-25-2018   #261
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Yeahhhh what? The cocking lever isn't a cocking lever, but a thumb rest?? That's like putting fake exhaust pipes on the sides of your modern Mustang.

But that's not the part that gets me. It's the power switch which is part of the rear exposure dial. I mean, really, how the heck are you supposed to turn the M10-D on quickly if you have to mess with a dial on the back? M shooters have been using the recock lever as a thumb rest for years, but putting the power switch in the rear dial has no precedent at all.
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Old 10-25-2018   #262
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Once again a lot of hate over an actual rangefinder camera and an actual rangefinder camera manufacturer on an actual rangefinder camera forum. It seems the latter is less and less true, though, so you all are forgiven.

I certainly like the overall design. Considering the M10 generation is not capable of video capture, the usefulness of the LCD screen is particularly small with this iteration. This allows for a much cleaner design. (And the screen-equipped versions are there for those who like them in any case.)

Based on the pictures, there are few things to criticise. The power switch does appear a potential design flaw on the surface. This may not be a camera you grab quickly for a shot unless it is already powered on. For that, the solution is easy. But is there a risk of switching the camera off when trying to use exposure compensation with your eye on the subject? A few people use exposure compensation that way (and many others at all), and the difference in ring diameter is probably enough to not confuse the user. Of course, actual handling of the camera would show whether there is any issue with this placement.

The film advance lever brings some balance to the top plate, and probably makes a practical difference, although on paper it does seem completely unnecessary clutter on a digital camera. I have often used a thumbs-up grip on the M8. I think I would rather have the foldable thumb rest that does not get in the way and does not take up the hot shoe. And, of course, I used to have the Epson, where the advance lever was mandatory to use. No issues there, it felt good on a digital camera. It is pretty; complaining about it rather petty.
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Old 10-25-2018   #263
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But that's not the part that gets me. It's the power switch which is part of the rear exposure dial. I mean, really, how the heck are you supposed to turn the M10-D on quickly
Why turn it off in the first place? No EVF, no display, the battery will last 'forever'.
I would be more concerned to switch it off accidentally when turning the exposure dial (haven't checked if this can happen).

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Old 10-25-2018   #264
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I don't get this extensive blame game here, it's just another iteration of the M10, if you don't like it get the 'normal' one.

And in regards to the usual trolls here. Really wondering if this kind of people spend the whole day in front of the computer writing about products they never owned, never will and in general have zero interests in. GL with that. In the meanwhile I visit the Toyota Corolla forum, don't like the white finish they are offering.

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Old 10-25-2018   #265
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Before the internet, if a company introduced a camera which did not fit everyone’s needs, no one knew it even existed until they went into a camera shop and saw a new one sitting on the counter. After talking to the sales person, you’d either consider buying it if you liked it and could afford it, or just say “hunh” and walk out with some film, if you didn’t. And forget about it.

...

Not sure if we are going to reach “It’s just like Hitler”, but we are only on page 5.
Hunh... I'm with Larry here, but Hitler probably would have loved this camera for all the anger that it's generated.
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Old 10-25-2018   #266
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For me it's not about anger but abject disappointment.
We all saw the 'film advance lever' in the sneak preview images. We got excited into thinking that this would cock the shutter.
Instead, it does nothing but fake a look for those who want to pretend they are shooting a film camera.

Butt it's ok, I'll never be in the market for a new Leica again unless Leica decides to put money into their service department so that it has a full staff. Not just the one tech for the entire North American market.
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Old 10-25-2018   #267
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We got excited into thinking that this would cock the shutter.
Personal expectation management is not Leica's business. But yeah, I get it from this point of view and knowing the RD-1. Didn't see the mock up, so no disappointment on my side.

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Instead, it does nothing but fake a look for those who want to pretend they are shooting a film camera.
Nope, it's for those who are tired of 3rd party thumbs up and the pain in the chest when carrying around, the problems when taking the cam out of a photo bag and of course, the horror look. I love it and I don't care if it looks like a film Leica or not. But quite sure that you can take it off if you really hate it.

Leica should probably offer the M10 a la carte, with or without display, lever, monochrome or color sensor and so on.

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Not just the one tech for the entire North American market.
That's a hell of a argument, fully agree.

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Old 10-25-2018   #268
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This is a toy, not a camera.

Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function. There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.

Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. It's no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery. Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.

I'd call it a joke. But it's not funny. Just sad.

Leica isn't the only company doing this - it seems to be a growing trend. Someone mentioned motorcycles earlier - the modern Triumph Bonneville is a pathetic pastiche with its fake carbs. And there was that awful Yashica with "digital film".

The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave...!
I agree.

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Old 10-25-2018   #269
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This is a toy, not a camera.

Leica began as a truly innovative company that led through technology and design. They were the epitome of modernity, with a simplicity of form that followed function. There was nothing excessive about a Leica camera; nothing unneeded, no frills, no frippery.

Today, Leica sells nostalgia and imitation. It's no longer interested in function or photography, only in parting rich people from their money with fakery. Pretending to not have a screen (but still needing one - thus the Heath Robinson phone app). Pretending to have a film-cocking lever. Pretending this is what using film is like.

I'd call it a joke. But it's not funny. Just sad.

Leica isn't the only company doing this - it seems to be a growing trend. Someone mentioned motorcycles earlier - the modern Triumph Bonneville is a pathetic pastiche with its fake carbs. And there was that awful Yashica with "digital film".

The ghost of Bauhaus is spinning in its grave...!
The ghost of Bauhaus is also not paying the workers at Leica or Triumph

Leica will sell the M10(-D) as Triumph sells the Bonneville. Everything else is romantic bu.. sh.. from an economic point of view. Like it or not.

Juergen
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Old 10-25-2018   #270
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Hunh... I'm with Larry here, but Hitler probably would have loved this camera for all the anger that it's generated.
I don't think there's much actual anger here. I for instance find the camera hilarious
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Old 10-25-2018   #271
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I don't think there's much actual anger here.
Luckily not that much, check the thread in DPR, unbelievable. If the angered people there would put the same effort in pointing to all the **** that happens in this world, it would be a much better place.

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I for instance find the camera hilarious
Valid subjective point of view. Same feeling I get when holding a Sony A7 in my hand. But guess what, with both cameras you can take amazing photos.

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Old 10-26-2018   #272
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Luckily not that much, check the thread in DPR, unbelievable. If the angered people there would put the same effort in pointing to all the **** that happens in this world, it would be a much better place.

Valid subjective point of view. Same feeling I get when holding a Sony A7 in my hand. But guess what, with both cameras you can take amazing photos.
My post's disappointed rather than angry... There are things that demand anger - a camera that is clearly not aimed at me isn't one! <grin>

As for DP Review, well, we have a far higher standard of photography here...! <grin>
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Old 10-26-2018   #273
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My post's disappointed rather than angry... There are things that demand anger - a camera that is clearly not aimed at me isn't one! <grin>
Thats the right spirit. At the end, any new camera on the market, whatever brand or type, expands our freedom of choice. Can't see here any negative side

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As for DP Review, well, we have a far higher standard of photography here...! <grin>
This is out of question, for sure.

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Old 10-26-2018   #274
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To be fair, if I saw a thread about a new camera from any other manufacturer that was sporting a fake film advance lever I'd be tossing in my 2 cents of disappointment over it as well. The fact that Leica happens to be the offending manufacturer in this case happens to be particularly disappointing to me as it wipes out some of the respect I have for the brand. I'm not sure how many other companies would try to get away with the emperor's new film advance lever, but you can bet they'd be catching grief as well if they did. I can't blame the non-Leica fans for having a good laugh over this.
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Old 10-26-2018   #275
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If only it had a battery that looked like a FILCA...

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Old 10-26-2018   #276
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Originally Posted by Guth View Post
To be fair, if I saw a thread about a new camera from any other manufacturer that was sporting a fake film advance lever I'd be tossing in my 2 cents of disappointment over it as well.
In other words, if Leica had used another form than the well known film advance lever as moveable thumbs up we wouldn't have this discussion? Really can't follow the 'fake' argument here, quite the opposite, why not use a long time existing element of their cameras for this functionality? Same with the rewind knob as ISO-setting, probably not the best way to change it this way, agree, but at least consequent when looking at the overall design. And for sure no reason to call the camera a toy like somebody did here. That's ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding what defines a camera as such.

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Originally Posted by Guth View Post
I can't blame the non-Leica fans for having a good laugh over this.
I have definitely more empathy for offended Hard-Core Leicanians in this regard.

Juergen
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Old 10-26-2018   #277
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Just imagine all the decisive moments that will never be caught on film (or fake film, erm, sensor) just because in 2018 Leica introduced a camera with a foldable thumbie...

Because, let's be honest, how could you ever use any camera (past or present) from a manufacturer that does something like this...
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Old 10-26-2018   #278
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Canon obviously think they're onto something...

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Old 10-26-2018   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
We all saw the 'film advance lever' in the sneak preview images. We got excited into thinking that this would cock the shutter.
Instead, it does nothing but fake a look for those who want to pretend they are shooting a film camera.
Cocking the shutter in a digital camera would have been pretending even more no?
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Old 10-26-2018   #280
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Cocking the shutter in a digital camera would have been pretending even more no?
Yes. It would have been even more ridiculous. But I am sure there is a market who would buy it.
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