Old 10-06-2018   #41
mod2001
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
First, I see no reason ...Market is saturated .
well, https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=166426


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Old 10-06-2018   #42
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
No, it is not on the decline.

This is from FUJIFILM Holding's most recent quarterly financial report.

"In the photo imaging business, sales were strong, particularly in Europe and the U.S., for instant photo systems such as the instax series and instax films. The sales volume of the instax series totaled 7.7 million units, exceeding the previous target of 7.5 million units. The newly released instax SHARE SP-3, a smartphone printer that employs a square format, offers a new photo printing method that will boost demand among smartphone users. Wall Decor, Photobook and other value-added printing businesses also enjoyed solid sales."
Instax cameras are now the most succesful camera type on the market: Surpassing even DSLM and DSLR sales!
In 2017:
- about 4.1 million DSLMs were built
- about 7.5 million DSLRs were bulit.
And Fuji has sold 7.7 million Instax cameras.
And their new target for the current year is 10 million. They have said that last week at Photokina.
For years now Instax film is a mass market again.

Concerning scanners:
The pessimistic view expressed here in this thread is wrong: We have Plustek, Pacific Image / Reflecta / Braun, Noritsu, ICG, Hasselblad for higher quality up to Top-Scanners (including drum-scanners).
And Epson and Canon for low quality flatbed scanners.
Plustek has just announced a new, improved OpticFilm 120 Pro Scanner at Photokina. Reflecta has this summer introduced its new Digit 7000 magazin scanner. And both companies have told me at the Photokina that demand is increasing.
That the demand for film and film related products is increasing was told by all companies at Photokina who are active in this business.
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Old 10-06-2018   #43
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
That the demand for film and film related products is increasing was told by all companies at Photokina who are active in this business.
That is possible, numerically. Whether those numbers are significant is a different matter.

What is not debatable is that companies man their booths with people from marketing, and marketers know that the best way to increase demand is to tell people that the product is very popular, exciting even.
Nobody manning a booth at Photokina “who are active in this business” is ever going to tell an attendee that perhaps the market for their product is a bit flat. Not unless they want to get canned.

I shoot more film than digital, but seriously, the patient may be in remission, but is probably still dying. When Nikon starts making updated Super Coolscan 9000 ED film scanners, or anybody makes something at that level, then I’ll believe there is a significant market. Which they would do, if there was.
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Old 10-06-2018   #44
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
That is possible, numerically. Whether those numbers are significant is a different matter.

What is not debatable is that companies man their booths with people from marketing, and marketers know that the best way to increase demand is to tell people that the product is very popular, exciting even.
Nobody manning a booth at Photokina “who are active in this business” is ever going to tell an attendee that perhaps the market for their product is a bit flat. Not unless they want to get canned.
Sorry to say, but in my case you are wrong.
Because I have not talked to the "marketing" people at the booth counters (by the way, these marketing people don't exist at all at the small film company booths at Photokina).
I have talked to the people who know the numbers. Company owners and market researchers. People who have been brutally honest to me in the past. People I trust. They have told me the real shocking numbers all the years in which film was in decline. But the situation has changed, demand is increasing.
Your comment shows that you have never been at Photokina, at least not in the last decade.
By the way, lots of distributors were complaining there that the demand is meanwhile so high, that there are massive backorders especially at Fujifilm and Kodak (backorders in the seven digit range). Both have delivery problems because demand is surpassing supply.
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Old 10-06-2018   #45
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
Sorry to say, but in my case you are wrong.
Because I have not talked to the "marketing" people at the booth counters (by the way, these marketing people don't exist at all at the small film company booths at Photokina).
I have talked to the people who know the numbers. Company owners and market researchers. People who have been brutally honest to me in the past. People I trust. They have told me the real shocking numbers all the years in which film was in decline. But the situation has changed, demand is increasing.
Your comment shows that you have never been at Photokina, at least not in the last decade.
By the way, lots of distributors were complaining there that the demand is meanwhile so high, that there are massive backorders especially at Fujifilm and Kodak (backorders in the seven digit range). Both have delivery problems because demand is surpassing supply.

Companies at trade shows aren’t marketing. That’s a good one.
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Old 10-06-2018   #46
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As someone who has just returned to shooting film after more than a decade away it's almost comical that I happened upon this thread searching for information on current high quality film scanners. Jeez, I feel so insignificant now, lol.
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Old 10-07-2018   #47
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I`ve just replaced my Epson V600 with an 850 and couldn`t be more pleased.
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Old 10-07-2018   #48
mod2001
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I`ve just replaced my Epson V600 with an 850 and couldn`t be more pleased.
With 35mm film? Because even my little Plustek 7600 delivers much better results than the Epson (have the 750 which is technically identical to the 850).

Anyhow, hope the new Pacific scanner delivers on its promises, for sure not as fast as the Pakon, but new, hopefully available via Reflecta in Europe and no longer the need to switch single film stripes and/or holders, this is the part which annoys me most in the whole scanning process. With the Pacific scanner you can simply put 10 strips at once in it and leave it alone. Huge improvement for people like me which a big and still growing archive of cut film stripes.

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Old 10-07-2018   #49
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I don't think we really need any more manufactures of scanners. What we need is canon or epson to produce something better. Put decent optics with focusing into their flatbeds so we can get a real scan thats sharp and not a mushy mess.

If I could get a really good solid 12mp scan from 35mm with a flatbed I would be happy. Medium format would be even better from the same scanner.
At the moment I have to mess about with a D800 with the bellows and macro lens and slide copy attachment. Sure it works and works very well. I can scan a whole B&W film very fast and convert to positive in light room. But it is still a lot of p'''''g around.

I do have a v500, it is ok for small prints and web uploads but 35mm is pretty mushy with it. I have been tempted to try a V850.
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Old 10-07-2018   #50
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Originally Posted by mod2001 View Post
With 35mm film? Because even my little Plustek 7600 delivers much better results than the Epson (have the 750 which is technically identical to the 850).
Juergen

Yes just 35mm film.
It`s good enough for me and a marked improvement over the V600.
Very happy with it although it isn`t heavily used these days.


I did look at Plustek but can`t recall why I didn`t buy.
I seem to remember that there were quite a few negative reviews about build quality but that may have been on a certain model … and anyway they may have been unfair but again I seem to recollect that it was enough to persuade me to stick with what I knew ie Epson.

Its web use for me or 5X7 prints which are printed by Ilford but again via the web.
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Old 10-07-2018   #51
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Yes just 35mm film.
It`s good enough for me and a marked improvement over the V600.
Very happy with it although it isn`t heavily used these days.


I did look at Plustek but can`t recall why I didn`t buy.
I seem to remember that there were quite a few negative reviews about build quality but that may have been on a certain model … and anyway they may have been unfair but again I seem to recollect that it was enough to persuade me to stick with what I knew ie Epson.

Its web use for me or 5X7 prints which are printed by Ilford but again via the web.
If you're happy, who cares :-) I could live with the Epson for display, it has a kind of charming rendering especially with higher ISO-films, but in print (which is always my end result) it looks like I set the noise reduction to 80 in LR compared to the Plustek or other dedicated scanner for 35mm, that why I was asking.

In regards to the Plustek, no problems so far and haven't heard about any big issues with it.

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Old 10-08-2018   #52
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
Companies at trade shows aren’t marketing. That’s a good one.
That comment clearly demonstrates that you don't know the Photokina. It is mainly a B2B fair. Especially for the film companies. Meeting your main suppliers and distributors, getting new orders in, and finding new business partners is the purpose of this fair. Talk to consumers is just a small side business.
I have also visited Photokina this September, as I have done in the previous two decades. And I can completely confirm what Skiff has said. Skiff is spot on.

Scanners: A friend of mine is quite satiesfied with the Reflecta RPS 10M. Resolution is even a bit better compared to the Nikon Coolscan V:
https://reflecta.de/en/products/deta...a-RPS-10M.html

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Old 10-08-2018   #53
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That comment clearly demonstrates that you don't know the Photokina. It is mainly a B2B fair. And I can completely confirm what Skiff has said. Skiff is spot on.
Exactly, that's how it is, people forget this from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Scanners: A friend of mine is quite satiesfied with the Reflecta RPS 10M. Resolution is even a bit better compared to the Nikon Coolscan V:
https://reflecta.de/en/products/deta...a-RPS-10M.html

Cheers, Jan
I tried, to be exact 2 times, the first I had to send back because of some hardware issues. I find the Reflect extremely slow and in many cases not accurate enough with the framing, at the end with manual adjustments and/or re-scanning I spent more time like before with other scanners. As I said, I don't expect the speed and accuracy of a Pakon F135, Noritsu LS600 or Fuji SP3000 nor their outstanding color management as I shoot mainly b/w, but my hopes are now that the new Pacific is somewhere in-between. At least at this price tag and compared to the price of the RPS10M I would expect it.

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Old 10-08-2018   #54
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If you're happy, who cares :-) I could live with the Epson for display, it has a kind of charming rendering especially with higher ISO-films, but in print (which is always my end result) it looks like I set the noise reduction to 80 in LR compared to the Plustek or other dedicated scanner for 35mm, that why I was asking.

In regards to the Plustek, no problems so far and haven't heard about any big issues with it.

Juergen
Hi Juergen

I rarely print and if I do I send out to Ilford.
A good 80% of what I do is for other people anyway and is always digital sports stuff , my film usage these days is low.

The Epson is a reasonable compromise for me.
The build quality thing about the Plustek was probably just internet talk.

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Old 10-08-2018   #55
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I have a Dimage 5400 I use with Silverfast. It so painful to use that the lab has to really mess up a scan really badly before I'll touch it. The scanner is technically supposedly excellent but all that goodness advantage is defeated by the inexplicable fact they couldn't be bothered to design film holders that flattened the film, meaning parts of the frame are always going to be out of focus. Silverfast is nominally maintained and still sold for $$$ but handles like a software relic from the 80s that has to be babysat for every frame and doesn't even have a profile for one of the most-used films today, namely the "new" Portra 400, eight years after its introduction. That is the state of the art in 2018.

From what I read, even the most recent flatbeds are pretty much just as painful to use.

If someone made something like the self-feeding Pakon with higher res there would surely be a market.
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Old 10-08-2018   #56
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Originally Posted by olifaunt View Post
If someone made something like the self-feeding Pakon with higher res there would surely be a market.
Noritsu still makes such a scanner even today. And if you do not want to pay the money for a new Noritsu L-600 there are quite a few of them available at the used market...
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Old 10-08-2018   #57
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Noritsu still makes such a scanner even today. And if you do not want to pay the money for a new Noritsu L-600 there are quite a few of them available at the used market...
Thank you for the pointer, I didn't know about it. Someone published a review of it though and now used prices I see are ridiculous. I suspect a number of people are making a living off buying, reviewing, and then flipping film stuff at great profit, but that's just my hunch
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Old 10-08-2018   #58
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Originally Posted by Guth View Post
As someone who has just returned to shooting film after more than a decade away it's almost comical that I happened upon this thread searching for information on current high quality film scanners. Jeez, I feel so insignificant now, lol.
Niche markets are significant to businesses dedicated to those markets.

They are insignificant to businesses that focus on mass martkets.
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Old 10-08-2018   #59
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If someone made something like the self-feeding Pakon with higher res there would surely be a market.
There's hope (in case you didn't see the other thread here), as soon as this scanner gets sold in Europe directly, I will buy one. Thought also a long tome about a Pakon or used Noritsu LS-600, but don't want to mess around with all the software needed to run them, besides it is not easy to get them here in Europe.

http://www.scanace.com/scan_pd_1.php?id=50

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Old 10-11-2018   #60
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I wish we could start a petition for Leica to make a great quality 35mm dedicated scanner
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Old 10-11-2018   #61
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I wish we could start a petition for Leica to make a great quality 35mm dedicated scanner
Oh, from Leica, I for one would not be able to afford it

But why not Kodak? That would make so much sense for them to do. It is surely an obvious missing link in growing their film business model.
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Old 10-11-2018   #62
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But why not Kodak? That would make so much sense for them to do. It is surely an obvious missing link in growing their film business model.
Be careful what you wish for:

https://www.kodak.com/us/en/Consumer...es/default.htm

Yes, it's a junky off-brand product rebadged with the brand name licensed from Kodak.
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Old 10-12-2018   #63
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I think there would be interest for a high end 35mm Leica film scanner at say the $6k price point, including all accessories. One with the same specs as the Hasselblad X1 (just the 35mm component). It would create a scanner that would give Hasselblad a run for their money and also further show Leica's commitment to film. I know it will never happen, but it would be cool.
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Old 10-12-2018   #64
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I think there would be interest for a high end 35mm Leica film scanner at say the $6k price point, including all accessories. One with the same specs as the Hasselblad X1 (just the 35mm component). It would create a scanner that would give Hasselblad a run for their money and also further show Leica's commitment to film. I know it will never happen, but it would be cool.
Only for 35mm and then the same **** with the film holders, I doubt it would sell well. Besides, you get them used (and serviced) for this price, incl. the possibility of MF and LF up to 4x5, and user of the latter 2 formats are normally the one who buy this kind of scanner.

If somebody pays 6K for a (only) 35mm scanner then only if he/she is shooting a lot of films every day/week and needs a fast way to digitize, means either the whole film roll or like the new Pacific scanner up to 10 stripes at once. For all other user with less film usage we have enough alternatives.

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Old 10-12-2018   #65
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I think there would be interest for a high end 35mm Leica film scanner at say the $6k price point, including all accessories. One with the same specs as the Hasselblad X1 (just the 35mm component). It would create a scanner that would give Hasselblad a run for their money and also further show Leica's commitment to film. I know it will never happen, but it would be cool.
And after the first run they could do some limited edition ones in different colors.
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Old 10-12-2018   #66
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I think there would be interest for a high end 35mm Leica film scanner at say the $6k price point, including all accessories. One with the same specs as the Hasselblad X1 (just the 35mm component). It would create a scanner that would give Hasselblad a run for their money and also further show Leica's commitment to film. I know it will never happen, but it would be cool.
You can buy a serviced Noritsu LS-600 for around 1k that will do all this now, and it is still supported by Noritsu. Is it all the way to X1 specs? No, but close and much, much faster.

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Old 10-12-2018   #67
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You can buy a serviced Noritsu LS-600 for around 1k that will do all this now, and it is still supported by Noritsu. Is it all the way to X1 specs? No, but close and much, much faster.

Rolfe
How does the Reflecta RPS 10M compare to the Noritsu?
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Old 10-12-2018   #68
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You can buy a serviced Noritsu LS-600 for around 1k that will do all this now, and it is still supported by Noritsu.
Where though?

Cheapest on Ebay is $2,200 incl shipping. Next cheapest over 4K. Elsewhere seems out of stock.
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Old 10-12-2018   #69
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Where though?

Cheapest on Ebay is $2,200 incl shipping. Next cheapest over 4K. Elsewhere seems out of stock.
I would monitor the Noritsu group on Facebook as they show up there regularly. They come on the market in batches, as various drugstore chains discontinue film processing. I think the last batch came out of Rite-Aid stores. That is in the U.S., obviously. The big re-seller here is AAA Imaging.

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Old 10-12-2018   #70
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How does the Reflecta RPS 10M compare to the Noritsu?
I'm not personally familiar with that scanner, but from the specs it looks as though it is geared toward scanning individual frames.

The Noritsu is a mini-lab scanner, geared toward high-speed scanning of whole uncut rolls. It does a whole roll at 6048 x 4011 resolution in about 3 minutes. It does a fast pre-scan so you can work on corrections while it is still scanning.

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Old 10-12-2018   #71
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How does the Reflecta RPS 10M compare to the Noritsu?
No real comparison, the Reflekta can scan a whole roll also but thats it with the common specs, had 2 for testing, was not really satisfied. The Noritsu is much much much faster, has accurate framing and much better color science. Same with the Fuji Frontiers or the Pakon. Now I'm hoping that Reflekta sells the new Pacific scanner (Powerfilm) under their brand in Europe as the do with the RPS10M (PrimeFilm XA).

Never saw a Noristu LS-600 for 1K, would buy it in a heartbeat. Maybe I should create a (fake) FB account to follow the Noristu group.

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Old 10-12-2018   #72
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Never saw a Noristu LS-600 for 1K, would buy it in a heartbeat. Maybe I should create a (fake) FB account to follow the Noristu group.
Agreed. I recently paid a quarter of a K to a lab just for developing/scanning 12 rolls I shot in a travel weekend. (This was BW, I can get color done locally for half the price, but still, I need to move at least BW to home development or I simply can't afford it, besides the problem that the lab techs don't necessarily pa the attention they should to skin tones, etc.)
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Old 10-12-2018   #73
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Never saw a Noristu LS-600 for 1K, would buy it in a heartbeat. Maybe I should create a (fake) FB account to follow the Noristu group.
AAA Imaging were selling them for less than $1K just a few months ago, now the price is up to $1.200.

(no connection to the seller)

* edit: Ah, saw that they are out of stock...
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Old 10-12-2018   #74
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Be careful what you wish for:

https://www.kodak.com/us/en/Consumer...es/default.htm

Yes, it's a junky off-brand product rebadged with the brand name licensed from Kodak.

My god that's an awful scanner. JPEG???



Kodak simply does not have the resources to develop and market something like a film scanner. The company needs to raise cash badly and the R & D effort needed to develop a world class film scanner is very expensive. They do not have the money needed to do this.
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Old 10-12-2018   #75
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..... The Noritsu is a mini-lab scanner, geared toward high-speed scanning of whole uncut rolls. It does a whole roll at 6048 x 4011 resolution in about 3 minutes. ......
If that were true, the Noritsu would be the highest resolving film scanner ever made at any price. And by a factor of about 2.

I noticed a visible step up in scan quality from both Noritsu and Frontier mini lab scanners when I bought my Minolta ScanDual III back in 2002. It's published resolution was 2820dpi

Mini lab scanners do what they were designed for well. That was to quickly scan a whole roll of 35mm film delivering a file that could be used to automatically print a consumer quality 8x10 print with no post processing. But that has never been what I wanted. I still want a scanner that will contain the maximum amount of digital data from a piece of film. I don't care what the output from the scanner looks like as I know I am going to use an image editing program, like Photoshop or Lightroom, to make it look like I want.

Scanning a whole roll at a time is meaningless to me. I always edit the negatives before scanning so I will only scan 2-3-4 negatives from a 36 exposure roll. That way, each scan gets the attention and respect it deserves.
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Old 10-12-2018   #76
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I had one of those Noritsus, it's not anywhere near that fast. It's also big and loud.

Even at higher resolution it's not as good as the Pakon, which *will* do an entire 36 exp roll in about 5 minutes, at 3000x2000.

Once the roll is scanned, adjustments can then be executed, and the Pakon software (although clunky and ancient) has decades of Kodak color smarts built-in. If that doesn't do the image justice, the image can be further tweaked in other software, of course.

There is no penalty for scanning the entire roll with the Pakon, I find it's the best way to cull the images down to the few keepers. Much easier to pick keepers with positives rather than negs.

I did a side-by-side test and sent back the LS-600.
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Old 10-12-2018   #77
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Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
I had one of those Noritsus, it's not anywhere near that fast. It's also big and loud.

Even at higher resolution it's not as good as the Pakon, which *will* do an entire 36 exp roll in about 5 minutes, at 3000x2000.

Once the roll is scanned, adjustments can then be executed, and the Pakon software (although clunky and ancient) has decades of Kodak color smarts built-in. If that doesn't do the image justice, the image can be further tweaked in other software, of course.

There is no penalty for scanning the entire roll with the Pakon, I find it's the best way to cull the images down to the few keepers. Much easier to pick keepers with positives rather than negs.

I did a side-by-side test and sent back the LS-600.
Well, each to his or her own. I own an Imacon 949, a Noritsu LS-600 and a Pakon 135+. The Pakon is indeed fast and has wonderful color algorithms. The weakness is the need for Windows XP and no further support.

I'm not sure what software you were running with your Noritsu, but the most recent software has approximately doubled the speed. I'm using the dedicated EZ Controller software on Windows 10, both of which are supported by Noritsu.

For 35mm I use the Noritsu 99% of of the time.

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Old 10-12-2018   #78
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If that were true, the Noritsu would be the highest resolving film scanner ever made at any price. And by a factor of about 2.
Well, that is indeed the resolution of the Noritsu at its HQ setting. I'm not sure what you mean, as my Imacon 949 is higher, but not by much.

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Old 10-12-2018   #79
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Well, that is indeed the resolution of the Noritsu at its HQ setting. I'm not sure what you mean, as my Imacon 949 is higher, but not by much.
Difference between manufacturer computed or stated resolution and actual real world resolution. I suspect your Imacon may come close to it's manufacturer stated resolution. My experience, although long ago, was that the actual resolution of the Noritsu was not even in the same ballpark as it's spec.

It is like Epson saying the V600 scanner has a max resolution of 12,800 dpi but the optical resolution is only 9,600. Both numbers are totally bogus in the real world, I would speculate by somewhere around a factor of 8 from experience.
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Old 10-12-2018   #80
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That's exactly what I found in my side-by-side comparisons, the Noritsu claimed resolution wasn't nearly what was expected.

Yes, it will run with a modern OS, although even that wasn't enough for me to keep the unit.
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