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Nikon Mirrorless Overdue about 3 years, the Nikon Mirrorless system finally arrived in 2018!

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Old 08-27-2018   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Corneau View Post
This was the only thing about the whole announcement that caught my eye. Oddly, a camera that boasts of the best autofocus of its entirely lineup has as its most interesting lens one that can't take advantage of it.

I can see it, on its own, being a lot of fun with portraiture, filmmaking/video, and theatre/stage...regardless of being MF (that's what focus peaking is for, I guess) or weight.

But I still don't see a compelling reason to go to mirrorless, other than "it's new and sparkly!"
maybe you're getting old and unable to carry a lot of weight. How's that for a reason?
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Old 08-27-2018   #202
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Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
Still wanna know why? Be it refresh rate, brightness, or eye point?
It is a combination of several factors. Also emitting wave lenghts of the light source, light intensity, extremely close distance between the monitor / screen of the EVF and the eye play a significant role.
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Old 08-28-2018   #203
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Both B&H and Adorama had the Z7 on display, today, to handle.

I really enjoyed the ergonomics.. Felt great in the hand.. Button layout, etc. thumb rest, grip all feel right.

Unfortunately, these were pre production models... A bit sluggish. VF blackout noticeable.

Hoping that a firmware update , before the camera ships, will rectify some of the issues.

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Old 08-28-2018   #204
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Disappointed to see that Nikon kept to the SLR form factor just as Sony did with the A7. Why do camera makers place the VF in line with the lens mount on cameras without a mirror box - the mirror box being the only practical reason to have a viewfinder in that position? Is there an ergonomic reason behind it that I don't see? Is it just to keep a familiar look? I just find it awkward to use compared to placing it on the side of the camera as with most rangefinders. I had a Nex-6 before moving up to the A7 I use now, and I liked the ergonomics of that camera a heck of a lot more than the A7.
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Old 08-28-2018   #205
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Originally Posted by Peter Jennings View Post
Is there an ergonomic reason behind it that I don't see?.
None that I can see but for putting a screen on the top right and a PSAM dial on the top left to make it look "professional".
A FF mirrorless could very well look like the Fuji XE-3 indeed.
Those Nikon Z bodies and lenses look just ugly.
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Old 08-28-2018   #206
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I'm wondering if when Nikon cut back on employees if they didn't go too far into the design area.

They should know better than to not have a shutter release and perhaps a few programmable control buttons on the pack when you hold it vertical.

I have to agree the SLR design is, well, so 1970's. Perhaps they were worried about building their own M5.......

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Old 08-29-2018   #207
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I mauled a production Z7 last night at a local event - it was Firmware 1.00.

I am very, very impressed. The EVF is the best I’ve experienced, the camera was smooth and responsive with no stutters or blackouts. The two lenses were impressive, and I tried the FTZ with two of my MF Nikkors - a 50/1.2 AI-s and 35/2.8 PC. They had a few AF-S lenses to try, too - they were seamless in use.

Only two things disappoint me right now:

1) The all but confirmed reports that the battery grip won’t have vertical controls for the reasons I described in an earlier post. This is a real miss in my opinion.

2) That they didn’t develop or announce a small 70-200/4 to go with the 24-70. I see the Z as being a killer generalist camera, and with Nikon’s stated intent to achieve maximum performance wide open this would seem to be a no-brainer. I don’t want to have to lug big f/2.8 zooms around on a day to day basis, and I don’t think I’m alone.

All in all, I didn’t see or learn anything that is turning me off to the Z, and actually learned a few things that are making me even more enthusiastic - for example, the planned upgrade to use CF Express media will completely change the buffer clearance rates.

Fun times. Now, to start selling unused gear to fund this...
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Old 08-29-2018   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Jennings View Post
Disappointed to see that Nikon kept to the SLR form factor just as Sony did with the A7. Why do camera makers place the VF in line with the lens mount on cameras without a mirror box - the mirror box being the only practical reason to have a viewfinder in that position? Is there an ergonomic reason behind it that I don't see? Is it just to keep a familiar look? I just find it awkward to use compared to placing it on the side of the camera as with most rangefinders. I had a Nex-6 before moving up to the A7 I use now, and I liked the ergonomics of that camera a heck of a lot more than the A7.
Put me in the camp of the people that would have liked a RF-type form factor.
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Old 08-29-2018   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
I mauled a production Z7 last night at a local event - it was Firmware 1.00........
Ken, thanks for the update.

What approach did you use for the MF?

Also, was there an AI tab on the adapter for the Z?

Thanks.

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Old 08-29-2018   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
I just found preliminary info that may kill the Z6 for me. Due to an old hand injury I rely very heavily on the vertical format controls on accessory battery grips - using cameras without them can be excruciating. The comments from two different Nikon sources that the battery grip under development may not have controls is concerning me. I’m planning on grilling the Nikon rep tomorrow night, but I doubt he’ll know anything.
I agree about the notion of this but hang in there on that one.

In development and what hits the shelves can be two different things and when one considers using lenses like the 105 1.4, 70-200 2.8 and even the new 58 .95, using a grip will be almost essential on a camera body as small as this one.

There is always the possibility third party if Nikon drops the ball on this one.
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Old 08-29-2018   #211
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Overall the new Z's don't seem to be getting a good reception by the large majority of reviewers.

I'm disappointed Nikon did not hit this one out of the park.
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Old 08-29-2018   #212
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So, will Nikon sell also S to Z adapter? Haven’t seen it mentioned. I think they should
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Old 08-29-2018   #213
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Overall the new Z's don't seem to be getting a good reception by the large majority of reviewers. I'm disappointed Nikon did not hit this one out of the park.
If you discount the vociferous "it only has one card slot" group, and a few complaining about the AF based on 15 minutes of use, the reviews I have read have been quite positive. Of course, I haven't read them all, so my universe of reviews may not be representative. I think a lot of people are glad to now have an alternative to Sony. There is no perfect camera.
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Old 08-29-2018   #214
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
If you discount the vociferous "it only has one card slot" group, and a few complaining about the AF based on 15 minutes of use, the reviews I have read have been quite positive. Of course, I haven't read them all, so my universe of reviews may not be representative. I think a lot of people are glad to now have an alternative to Sony. There is no perfect camera.
+1, I don't put any stock in the Web Star Review brigade, none of these cameras are production models, still short of final firmware in terms of deliverables.

If I hear anything that compares to the IR cut off / purple black clothing debacle of the Leica M8 in the coming months, I will certainly hold off on my pre-order but other than that, I want to use the Z6 in my specific application in order to make the final call.
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Old 08-29-2018   #215
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Originally Posted by Peter Jennings View Post
Disappointed to see that Nikon kept to the SLR form factor just as Sony did with the A7. Why do camera makers place the VF in line with the lens mount on cameras without a mirror box - the mirror box being the only practical reason to have a viewfinder in that position? Is there an ergonomic reason behind it that I don't see? Is it just to keep a familiar look?
It's because most of the people using it will be used to using Nikon DSLRs, and they need to make the experience not a jarring one, so that their customers don't abandon it based on the shock of the new.
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Old 08-29-2018   #216
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I'm hoping they come out with a mirrorless camera with a APS-C sensor, same viewfinder as the Z-Twins and similar controls as the Z but with a F lens mount and without the hump.

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Old 08-29-2018   #217
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Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
I'm hoping they come out with a mirrorless camera with a APS-C sensor, same viewfinder as the Z-Twins and similar controls as the Z but with a F lens mount and without the hump.

B2 (;->
I was thinking along similar lines...dx, integral f mount adapter, dials like a Df, and cinematography friendly
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Old 08-29-2018   #218
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Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
Ken, thanks for the update.

What approach did you use for the MF?

Also, was there an AI tab on the adapter for the Z?

Thanks.

B2 (;->
I was using peaking - there wasn’t enough time to figure out magnification. No AI tab, it uses stop down metering.
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Old 08-30-2018   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
I was using peaking - there wasn’t enough time to figure out magnification. No AI tab, it uses stop down metering.
Thanks for the update.

Too bad they've abandoned the old AI tab. There's a heck of a market out there they could tap into. Not on the Z-Twins but the next step down, folks who don't use them to make money.

Keep us in the loop as to how you progress on the move.

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Old 08-30-2018   #220
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Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
Thanks for the update.

Too bad they've abandoned the old AI tab. There's a heck of a market out there they could tap into. Not on the Z-Twins but the next step down, folks who don't use them to make money.

Keep us in the loop as to how you progress on the move.

B2 (;->
Will do! Really, there’s no need for AI tabs on these - everything is done at the taking aperture.
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Old 08-30-2018   #221
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Here is someone that...raves about it..!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r19prJVWOXA
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Old 08-31-2018   #222
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Here is someone that...raves about it..!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r19prJVWOXA
What is this - the photographic equivalent of a Rick Roll? I wish YT would let you block certain channels, his would be one of the first I would do it to. Hopefully my momentary click just now doesn’t translate to a hit or money for him.
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Old 08-31-2018   #223
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This guy...raves about it...!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud0ljGVhn6M
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Old 08-31-2018   #224
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Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
Will do! Really, there’s no need for AI tabs on these - everything is done at the taking aperture.
In practice do you find focusing at f5.6 vs f1.8 an issue?

Thanks.

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Old 08-31-2018   #225
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Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
In practice do you find focusing at f5.6 vs f1.8 an issue?

Thanks.

B2 (;->
Do you mean with AF lenses? I’m not sure that’s accurate, there’s been a lot of discussion about how the AF works. I didn’t think to look at the business end while doing an AF run, I kinda wish I had.

With MF lenses on the adapter, you focus at the taking aperture.

Or am I misunderstanding what you’re asking?
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Old 08-31-2018   #226
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Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
Do you mean with AF lenses? I’m not sure that’s accurate, there’s been a lot of discussion about how the AF works. I didn’t think to look at the business end while doing an AF run, I kinda wish I had.

With MF lenses on the adapter, you focus at the taking aperture.

Or am I misunderstanding what you’re asking?
Not you, it's me,didn't give you enough to background.

I'm thinking about old MF AI glass. I've experienced it when I had a XE-2 and a 85/1.8 old lens. Focusing wide open I could nail it but when I was shooting at f8 I had troubles finding it.

AF would avoid the problem all together, but that's all new glass. Not using it to earn money that's something I'd like to avoid.

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Old 08-31-2018   #227
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There you go, taking all the joy out of life.

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... and without the hump.

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Old 08-31-2018   #228
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There you go, taking all the joy out of life.
It's not all humps, that one does nothing for me. The sleak lines of a plain prison F2 or even the FTn so you could make the body smaller.

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Focusing At Narrow Apertures
Old 09-01-2018   #229
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Focusing At Narrow Apertures

Nikon, and other DSLR centric brands, do not care about people who prefer to use manual focusing. This is one reason why I abandoned Nikon in 2011-12. After several attempts with three different Nikon cameras I could not achieve reliable results with the green dot method.

Obviously, I am not familiar with all of the new Nikon platform's focusing aids. For all I know, Nikon decided to implement powerful focusing lens aids for non-AF lenses.

In general, I found the best alternative for focusing with narrower apertures is focus peaking. There are two approaches.
  • You simply make sure the intended focus point displays intense peaking.
  • Move the focus region and temporarily crop (zoom) the EVF display to select the focus point. Then maximized the peaking.
In my case it took a while to learn how to read a display with focus peaking. It is confusing to observe large regions with peaking when DOF is wide. Field curvature can add to the confusion. Regions and objects with more contrast can have more intense peaking than a lower contrast objects that happen to be at the focus point. With wide angle lenses these problems can be disorienting. That's the bad news. The good news is if the intended region or subject displays heavy peaking, it will be reasonably sharp in the rendered image. I realize perceived sharpness is only maximized at the true, but unknown, focus point. The issue is whether or not the MTF50 degrades significantly (the actual lens MTF50 is inferior to the total systems' MTF50) when changes in peaking are not able to differentiate the intended focus point. It just may not be not practical to optimize focus for non-AF lenses with the tools at hand. This doesn't mean acceptable focus is impossible

The second method attempts to minimize these problems by cropping the display. This usually makes maximizing the peaking intensity more selective. But it is slower unless the camera supports some sort of picture-in-picture display mode. I use a mirrorless camera with an OVF finder than can display a PIP, EVF, zoomed focus region. I primarily use focus peaking but occasionally use a simulated, split-screen display. I use different zoom levels for different circumstances.

There are some other variables that can help with focus peaking. Reducing peaking sensitivity could increase selectivity. Different peaking color options might work better for different people. For raw-file users, experimenting with in-camera JPEG rendering parameters could help too.

Low light reduces the effectiveness of all focusing methods. Similarly, scenes with low native contrast are also a challenge. In very low light EVFs are affected by low S/N.

Focusing wide open is an entirely different matter.
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Old 09-01-2018   #230
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In addition I would also add that movement (camera or subject) reduces the effectiveness of focus peaking too.

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Old 09-01-2018   #231
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In addition I would also add that movement (camera or subject) reduces the effectiveness of focus peaking too.

Shawn
That's interesting …. I use the focus peaking on my two Sony cameras to track moving horses .

It doesn`t always hit but that's mostly at or near infinity otherwise I`m happy with its performance.
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Old 09-01-2018   #232
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So, will Nikon sell also S to Z adapter? Haven’t seen it mentioned. I think they should
Size of Lenses designed so far for Z Nikon unlike rumored Canon RF 35mm 1.8 which is very small ,suggest thick sensor stack , perhaps Canon sensor will be better suited for adapting rangefinder lenses any thoughts?
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Old 09-01-2018   #233
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Size of Lenses designed so far for Z Nikon unlike rumored Canon RF 35mm 1.8 which is very small ,suggest thick sensor stack , perhaps Canon sensor will be better suited for adapting rangefinder lenses any thoughts?
Why does the size of the Z lenses suggest a thick sensor stack?
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Old 09-01-2018   #234
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The Canon FF mirrorless specs are now looking slightly better than Nikon's offering.

The New Canon lenses for their FF mirrorless look promising from a distance, but only hands on real life reviews and test trials will tell us for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JIZyQKVUfE&t=71s
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Old 09-01-2018   #235
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The lens options for that canon blow the Nikon ones out of the water. 28-70mm f2L and a 50mm F1.2L that's probably 1/2 the size of the 58mm noct with AF...
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Old 09-01-2018   #236
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Canon slipped from the 5D3 so like 2012. Will it take back the crown in the opening salvo of the great no mirror war between the two giants? Will no mirror be a nail in the coffin for Nikon?
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Old 09-01-2018   #237
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1430 grams and 95mm filter for the 28-70/2. 950 grams for the 50/1.2. The body has (likely) no IBIS. 0.71 magnification. No joystick for AF points, maybe the touchpad instead?

It's cooling down a little bit. More like a 6D III.
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Old 09-01-2018   #238
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Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
1430 grams for the 28-70/2. 950 grams for the 50/1.2. The body has (likely) no IBIS. 0.71 magnification.

It's cooling down a little bit. More like a 6D III.
Surely that weight for the 50mm can't be right? The ef mount 50mm 1.2L is 580g, the fujinon 56mm f1.2 is 450g and that's has a metal casing.

If it is correct, well, no thanks
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Old 09-01-2018   #239
Archlich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinlg View Post
Surely that weight for the 50mm can't be right? The ef mount 50mm 1.2L is 580g, the fujinon 56mm f1.2 is 450g and that's has a metal casing.

If it is correct, well, no thanks
Not confirmed yet, but not surprising if it's true since today's retrofocus 50/1.4 lenses easily weigh that much, if not even more - the Otus and the Leica SL Summilux both weigh over 1kg.

The Canon is rumored to have 15 elements in 9 groups, while the old 50/1.2L has 8 elements in 6 groups. The glass almost doubled!
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Old 09-02-2018   #240
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Originally Posted by shawn View Post
In addition I would also add that movement (camera or subject) reduces the effectiveness of focus peaking too.

Shawn
True.

With non-AF lenses, subject movement always makes the job harder. There are decades old strategies for using manual focus with moving subjects. These all rely, to some degree. on wide DOFs. There is some degree of compensation for the focus peaking's issues with motion.
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