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Old 08-03-2018   #81
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Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
...Of course, if you were HCB with a large family fortune behind, things were easier.

And, if you are a famous film director/whatever with a budget of millions and a team of professional specialists then it's also easy, especially when compared with Joe Bloggs and his smartphone...

And if Joe Bloggs' photo's mean something to him then who has the right to attack him?

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Old 08-03-2018   #82
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Sometimes I have to remind myself that the population of this planet has trebled in my lifetime ... it keeps things in perspective.
This.

More people and more toys with which to play. In the scope of all things in human history, it's just another trend that eventually fades.
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Old 08-03-2018   #83
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I've seen wonderful photos taken with phones by unknown photo-takers, and I prefer them to some of the overhyped, proper photography work taken with million dollar cameras by famous photographers.
There is nothing wrong for a person without a title of a lord nor a duke to take good photos, whatever the tools they use.
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Old 08-03-2018   #84
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Not all the change is a positive change.
No I wasn`t suggesting that it was but it is change and things move on.
We all look fondly on the past but I don`t see why that has to prevent us embracing the future if we so wish.

I use a smartphone but I also use film …. grief I sometimes use an SLR .
It`s circumstances which often dictate what you use …. well it is with me.

We all know the history of photography …. every new step was greeted with horror by the gatekeepers .

I always like to think that we`ve got beyond that type of reaction but evidently WW hasn`t.
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Old 08-03-2018   #85
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Originally Posted by nukecoke View Post
I've seen wonderful photos taken with phones by unknown photo-takers, and I prefer them to some of the overhyped, proper photography work taken with million dollar cameras by famous photographers.
….. and then there`s this.
Totally agree.
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Old 08-03-2018   #86
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No I wasn`t suggesting that it was but it is change and things move on.
We all look fondly on the past but I don`t see why that has to prevent us embracing the future if we so wish.

I use a smartphone but I also use film …. grief I sometimes use an SLR .
It`s circumstances which often dictate what you use …. well it is with me.

We all know the history of photography …. every new step was greeted with horror by the gatekeepers .

I always like to think that we`ve got beyond that type of reaction but evidently WW hasn`t.
I think WW words were taken too literally. I don't see him denying progress or pronouncing that photography is dead because of smartphones. It is just a reflection that it's a different type of activity what most people do with their smartphones. And then it depends on the definition of photography. I can understand that WW definition is very different from what other people might see.
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Old 08-03-2018   #87
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I would agree .
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Old 08-03-2018   #88
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I think WW words were taken too literally. I don't see him denying progress or pronouncing that photography is dead because of smartphones. It is just a reflection that it's a different type of activity what most people do with their smartphones. And then it depends on the definition of photography. I can understand that WW definition is very different from what other people might see.
When I saw the article I thought of the "new photographer" uploading 3500 unedited pictures to social media he took on his 2 week vacation. Also, some pros who make 1500 captures on a 1 day assignment, covering something that was done with 3-5 rolls of 35 in past years. The pro spends hours editing these down to 150 that are delivered to the client, when maybe 5-6 were delivered in the past.

The phone is just a handy recording instrument. I have no problem with the phone as a photo device.
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Old 08-03-2018   #89
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I'll take that as, you didn't bother to check before taking a poke at someone who's made a name for himself in the visual/image world. Pretty sad.
I just checked. Are you aware that the link you posted to was only to images tagged #wimwenders, not his actual Instagram page, if he has one?
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Old 08-03-2018   #90
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I do believe that opportunities to make a living as a professional photographer have diminished. How many weddings are now being shot by the uncle who has 'a nice camera'? And how many news agencies simply buy photos from freelance photographers instead of employing staff photographers?
Not really. Where I'm at least. Not for photography like wedding, real estate and so on. Our daughter was just not paid 4K$ for photography. It is becoming more and more common in Ontario and Quebec. Not only for photography and even government at all levels involved in this crime.
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Old 08-03-2018   #91
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I agree, but it could have an impact on how an audience might view or value your photography.
John: a great question since a valid answer is not just more simplistic internet philosophizing but analyzing the reality of my work and how it is viewed by the public. That means bringing some subconscious actions to the forefront.

I like to believe the public responds to my goal of telling a cohesive visual story that conveys information and not showing a collection of pretty photos. Just about everything I do with my work begins with a predetermined goal and a general plan how to accomplish such. That is a holdover from my business career. Then the editing and sequencing is assembling that story to be most informative. I do think this contrasts my work to many photographers who typically set out to just take nice photos then edit to select the best ones individually.

What that means is that my work is differentiated by my approach of not "being a photographer" but one who tries to tell a story visually and convey information. So I like to think there is little difference in how many photographers there are in the world and how many photos they take.
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Old 08-03-2018   #92
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Originally Posted by valdas View Post
I think WW words were taken too literally. I don't see him denying progress or pronouncing that photography is dead because of smartphones. It is just a reflection that it's a different type of activity what most people do with their smartphones. And then it depends on the definition of photography. I can understand that WW definition is very different from what other people might see.
Yes.
The first part of Wenders sentence was "so photography is more alive than ever..." but it seems that is not popular enough
to quote. The extraction of the second half of the statement and its use as teaser is not a very good style in my opinion.
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Old 08-03-2018   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valdas View Post
I think WW words were taken too literally. I don't see him denying progress or pronouncing that photography is dead because of smartphones. It is just a reflection that it's a different type of activity what most people do with their smartphones. And then it depends on the definition of photography. I can understand that WW definition is very different from what other people might see.
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Originally Posted by PKR View Post
When I saw the article I thought of the "new photographer" uploading 3500 unedited pictures to social media he took on his 2 week vacation. Also, some pros who make 1500 captures on a 1 day assignment, covering something that was done with 3-5 rolls of 35 in past years. The pro spends hours editing these down to 150 that are delivered to the client, when maybe 5-6 were delivered in the past.

The phone is just a handy recording instrument. I have no problem with the phone as a photo device.
We should not forget WW was among the first movie directors to use digital technology when working.

We cannot say he is against new tools provided by the evolving technology.

But the simplicity to push a button on a smartphone to make a photo with no cost (film, processing, printing) push people to shoot everything in any moment, thus facilitated by the "need" (need?) to publish on socials.

The results are easy visible on any social. In this sense I fully agree with him.

Of course any tools can be used in any way and if it makes fun nothing wrong with this.

And yes, technology and socials are changing the way many people behave.

robert
PS: an acquaintance of mine a few weeks ago explained me he needed so many MB (I do not remember how many) smartphone because in his phone are more than 20.000 photos...
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Old 08-03-2018   #94
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.........I prefer them to some of the........work taken with million dollar cameras.........
Wow, I had no idea there was such a thing! I thought Leicas were supposed to be the expensive ones! No way I’d be buying one of those, whatever they are, what with really needing to tape over the nameplate and all.
Dang.
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Old 08-03-2018   #95
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I just checked. Are you aware that the link you posted to was only to images tagged #wimwenders, not his actual Instagram page, if he has one?
Nope, I just searched WW and insta. So, you don't think it's his site?

Edit:

You may be correct, I'm not sure. My web presence is run by a 2nd party. I don't do any day to day work on it. I do have a lot of say in approving the content.

This web page looks to be his? http://www.wim-wenders.com/ But, as you say, it may not be run by him. He may have more important thing to do with his time. It shows a link to a FB account, again, maybe not him but, a proxy.

So, i've supplied you with two more targets.
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Old 08-03-2018   #96
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Digital photography has been a blessing in many different ways.

I’ll mention a few.

Recently, my wife and I attended a family reunion in Wisconsin with over 100 people. She has over 50 first cousins!

I made photographs just using my iPhone. Putting several on Facebook the same day as the reunion. Hard to do with film. But I did have a Barnack Leica with me. The film is hanging to dry.

Smart phones allow people to photograph where it would be next to impossible before. Happy all survived, but the recent plane crash in Mexico. Instant publishing

There are a gadzillion other examples.

Oh, by the way, take a peek at the group photo of the reunion I made. Hand held, iPhone 6s. It’s on Facebook here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

Or this one of my wife’s 86 year old aunt:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

It’s all good.
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Old 08-03-2018   #97
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But the simplicity to push a button on a smartphone to make a photo with no cost ..
With no cost, and very little thinking, or care for the created final product.. in most cases.

Maybe, given the quantity of images uploaded to social media daily, a very small %, 0.001 (?) are made with any serious thought. 50 photos of a burger and fries lunch? Then another 50 of what some "enlightened visual artist" had for dinner?? And that, qualifies as photography.. and food photography, at that. Measure that against, a food photo that takes a photographer, a food stylist, and the clients home economist, an entire day to construct and record. In the film days, that may have been 10 sheets of 8 x10 and a dozen Polaroids . Today, maybe 25-50 digital captures in a day's work. But, they are valued equally by the "new photographers". They see little difference, and dismiss the work done. Just like the "new photo experts" did with the HCB photo cited earlier.
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Old 08-03-2018   #98
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There is no turning back ... Life goes on
One either whines or rejoices

Does it really matter today what You shoot with

With such an abundance of photos everywhere
it makes me now relish even more a 'Good Photo' when I find one
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Old 08-03-2018   #99
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I've a project ahead of me that involves going through several boxes worth of family photographs. In a house my parents bought a few years ago a third of the refrigerator door compartment was filled with undeveloped rolls of film. Some of them from the early 90's and late 80's. Not looking at photographs, it seems to me, has been a thing long before smartphones.

What I'm thankful for however, is that the photographs that my parents aren't looking at are still around. So that I can look at them. Sadly, the children in my future won't see all the screenshotted memes and dog gifs that clog up my phone.
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Old 08-03-2018   #100
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I have a hammer and a pair of pliers. Ergo I am a dentist.
You`ve been watching Human Centipede II again!?
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Old 08-03-2018   #101
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John: a great question since a valid answer is not just more simplistic internet philosophizing but analyzing the reality of my work and how it is viewed by the public. That means bringing some subconscious actions to the forefront.

I like to believe the public responds to my goal of telling a cohesive visual story that conveys information and not showing a collection of pretty photos. Just about everything I do with my work begins with a predetermined goal and a general plan how to accomplish such. That is a holdover from my business career. Then the editing and sequencing is assembling that story to be most informative. I do think this contrasts my work to many photographers who typically set out to just take nice photos then edit to select the best ones individually.

What that means is that my work is differentiated by my approach of not "being a photographer" but one who tries to tell a story visually and convey information. So I like to think there is little difference in how many photographers there are in the world and how many photos they take.
Yes, Bob... this is a key part of presenting work to the public. You`ve figured out how to get through to them. However, could the bigger picture be that less people are looking to go to galleries or museums to look at photography too? I`m not sure. I`m not the best person to ask because I search it out.
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Old 08-03-2018   #102
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I have a hammer and a pair of pliers. Ergo I am a dentist.
Not until you have actually used them at least once in a purported act of dentistry.
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Old 08-03-2018   #103
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Just like the "new photo experts" did with the HCB photo cited earlier.
This is just not understanding how the history of the medium unfolded. I went to the MoMA in NYC with a friend recently. I explained why some paintings were considered important to the history of Art and its timeline. Also, that you have to buy into it a little...almost suspend belief. Finally, that it`s not easy to be the first to do something and it is a lot easier to do it after the fact.

He hadn`t thought of it that way before. He said it was the first time he enjoyed the museum. He could have been BS-ing me, but he seemed sincere.
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Old 08-03-2018   #104
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When AF was introduced into camera systems, I had similar thoughts! This is the end of real photography. I avoided AF cameras like the pest.
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Old 08-03-2018   #105
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Not really. Where I'm at least. Not for photography like wedding, real estate and so on. Our daughter was just not paid 4K$ for photography. It is becoming more and more common in Ontario and Quebec. Not only for photography and even government at all levels involved in this crime.
A good friend of mine, who has been teaching at a photo school here in Boston for 30 years, has seen job opportunities for their graduates diminish over the decades. And there are government statistics available here in the US.

"The median hourly wage for photographers was $15.62 in May 2017."

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Media-and-Co...tographers.htm
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Old 08-03-2018   #106
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Yes, Bob... this is a key part of presenting work to the public. You`ve figured out how to get through to them. However, could the bigger picture be that less people are looking to go to galleries or museums to look at photography too? I`m not sure. I`m not the best person to ask because I search it out.
John: first I must acknowledge there are many great photographers like HCB, Winogrand, Friedlander, and many others who simply do photos without trying to tell a story. It is just a difference in our approach. Maybe I chose my approach because my raw photographic talent is not at their level.

We are fortunate here in Central Florida with one of the seven exclusively photographic museums in the US being nearby in Daytona Beach. It is the South East Museum of Photography. I try to make many openings and see the rotating exhibits as most of the photographers are world class. But I am just as likely to go to a non photographic art or cultural exhibit.

Now I do admit to be a bit of an anomaly here in that my interest is more in communicating information than photography. It is just the best medium for me to use.
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Old 08-04-2018   #107
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With no cost, and very little thinking, or care for the created final product.. in most cases.

Maybe, given the quantity of images uploaded to social media daily, a very small %, 0.001 (?) are made with any serious thought. 50 photos of a burger and fries lunch? Then another 50 of what some "enlightened visual artist" had for dinner?? And that, qualifies as photography.. and food photography, at that. Measure that against, a food photo that takes a photographer, a food stylist, and the clients home economist, an entire day to construct and record. In the film days, that may have been 10 sheets of 8 x10 and a dozen Polaroids . Today, maybe 25-50 digital captures in a day's work. But, they are valued equally by the "new photographers". They see little difference, and dismiss the work done. Just like the "new photo experts" did with the HCB photo cited earlier.

Hi,

Food you eat, or will eat, in pictures is called "photo-realism" and is a different school of photography from food in advertisements that has been tarted up, embalmed and so on. No one eats it...

Having said that, I'd add that a lot of the "today's lunch" photo's could easily be improved and that's an understatement. Equally, a lot of food you eat could be improved to be like the same in the advertisement. ;-)

Regards, David
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Old 08-04-2018   #108
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A good friend of mine, who has been teaching at a photo school here in Boston for 30 years, has seen job opportunities for their graduates diminish over the decades. And there are government statistics available here in the US.

"The median hourly wage for photographers was $15.62 in May 2017."

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Media-and-Co...tographers.htm
15.62 USD is well above official minimal rate in Ontario. This is how much many broadcast technicians are paid here. And it is much more technically complicated job than photog on salary. They do cameras, light, video, audio, transmission, editing, computers and cables.

I don't see where i'm any decent job just waiting for you after school, time has changed.
But I submitted on photography jobs search and it is steady here.

And where are way too many kids after photo schools now. None of those who finished and whom I know works in photography. Our daughter didn't went to school and she works as photographer. You know why? Because she is willing to work on contract, not fixed salary job, she takes risks and she is gifted as photog.
And... Digital cameras made it easy. Time has changed. Primitive photo jobs on salary are gone. And to have job as photog now, just school is not enough.
But they still hire at photo studios at Walmart and to photograph kids in schools.
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Old 08-04-2018   #109
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Hi,

Food you eat, or will eat, in pictures is called "photo-realism" and is a different school of photography from food in advertisements that has been tarted up, embalmed and so on. No one eats it...

Having said that, I'd add that a lot of the "today's lunch" photo's could easily be improved and that's an understatement. Equally, a lot of food you eat could be improved to be like the same in the advertisement. ;-)

Regards, David
David; I think you may be behind the times in much of this. My studio mate is a food photographer and rarely is anything photographed that isn't eaten'. Most food is prepped in several photogenic plates. The final touches are put on just as the picture is taken.

A few examples.. Apple Pies. The food stylist baked several in the studio kitchen. The shot was of a slice. After the hero was made, the pies were eaten by folks or taken home. Meat.. a large delivery of steaks were delivered for a book on cooking meat. In this case you're partially correct. The steaks were browned with a torch and branded with grill marks. All the meat went home with the staff. The most recent food shot that I was involved in was, a TV spot for Domino's Pizza. It was a big shoot. 45 people including 3 home economists, a food stylist and the chef. The chef in this case was Patrick Doyle, CEO of Domino's. He cooked 70 pizzas over 5 days for the new menu Ads. After each take in front of the camera, they were cut and put on plates for the crew to eat. After the 2nd day of a 5 day shoot, we were all very familiar with the "new menu".

Also, laws regarding food advertising have changed over the years. And, better methods for photographing fresh food has changed too. Early on, hot lights were rough on cold items. With electronic flash and Cold continuous lighting, the old ways have been disposed of.
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Old 08-04-2018   #110
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As much as I appreciate photography, I guess food advertising is not particularly interesting to me in everyday life. I only care about the look of the dish you serve me. The cell phone photographs better capture the reality I end up paying for.
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Old 08-04-2018   #111
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As much as I appreciate photography, I guess food advertising is not particularly interesting to me in everyday life. I only care about the look of the dish you serve me. The cell phone photographs better capture the reality I end up paying for.
Traditional food photography for advertising actually photos something not yummy at all, for example strawberries painted with red lipsticks to look ultra red, and chicken with skin roasted by hair dryers to look crispy (raw inside), etc.
I think cellphone photos of food are much more honest.
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Old 08-04-2018   #112
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There is no turning back ... Life goes on
One either whines or rejoices

Does it really matter today what You shoot with

With such an abundance of photos everywhere
it makes me now relish even more a 'Good Photo' when I find one
Dear Helen,

No. There is a third option.

Ignore.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #113
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Traditional food photography for advertising actually photos something not yummy at all, for example strawberries painted with red lipsticks to look ultra red, and chicken with skin roasted by hair dryers to look crispy (raw inside), etc.
I think cellphone photos of food are much more honest.
You've done much of it, then?

Lipstick? Hair dryers? Sorry: I've done food photography and I know several food photographers, and while there is plenty of fakery, these two examples are pure fantasy.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #114
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You've done much of it, then?

Lipstick? Hair dryers? Sorry: I've done food photography and I know several food photographers, and while there is plenty of fakery, these two examples are pure fantasy.

Cheers,

R.
Then it excludes you and the people you mentioned from applying that type of photography tricks I described above.

No, I haven't done it. I learned that from a documentary.

Not the same but quite similar methods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRRUgI_iUXI
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Old 08-04-2018   #115
RObert Budding
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15.62 USD is well above official minimal rate in Ontario. This is how much many broadcast technicians are paid here. And it is much more technically complicated job than photog on salary. They do cameras, light, video, audio, transmission, editing, computers and cables.

I don't see where i'm any decent job just waiting for you after school, time has changed.
But I submitted on photography jobs search and it is steady here.

And where are way too many kids after photo schools now. None of those who finished and whom I know works in photography. Our daughter didn't went to school and she works as photographer. You know why? Because she is willing to work on contract, not fixed salary job, she takes risks and she is gifted as photog.
And... Digital cameras made it easy. Time has changed. Primitive photo jobs on salary are gone. And to have job as photog now, just school is not enough.
But they still hire at photo studios at Walmart and to photograph kids in schools.
Wages between the US and Canada are not directly comparable - most $15/hr jobs here do not come with health insurance. And the $15.67/hr is the median, so half earn less than that. Plus the number of jobs for all photographers has been dclinibg, and continues to decline. Those are facts.
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Old 08-04-2018   #116
David Hughes
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David; I think you may be behind the times in much of this. My studio mate is a food photographer and rarely is anything photographed that isn't eaten'. Most food is prepped in several photogenic plates. The final touches are put on just as the picture is taken.

A few examples.. Apple Pies. The food stylist baked several in the studio kitchen. The shot was of a slice. After the hero was made, the pies were eaten by folks or taken home. Meat.. a large delivery of steaks were delivered for a book on cooking meat. In this case you're partially correct. The steaks were browned with a torch and branded with grill marks. All the meat went home with the staff. The most recent food shot that I was involved in was, a TV spot for Domino's Pizza. It was a big shoot. 45 people including 3 home economists, a food stylist and the chef. The chef in this case was Patrick Doyle, CEO of Domino's. He cooked 70 pizzas over 5 days for the new menu Ads. After each take in front of the camera, they were cut and put on plates for the crew to eat. After the 2nd day of a 5 day shoot, we were all very familiar with the "new menu".

Also, laws regarding food advertising have changed over the years. And, better methods for photographing fresh food has changed too. Early on, hot lights were rough on cold items. With electronic flash and Cold continuous lighting, the old ways have been disposed of.

Hi,

I'm not up to date because I stopped buying food that looks good in the picture on the boxs and turns out to be a disappointment. As for your studio shots, I don't doubt it but are the bakers and chefs making the ones that I buy and pay for?

I can understand chef's doing their bit for a cookery book but the food I'm thinking of looked as though it came off of a conveyor belt....

Regards, David

* Not that you can't get good food if you look around and so on. I've even had good food out of a tin...
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Old 08-04-2018   #117
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Then it excludes you and the people you mentioned from applying that type of photography tricks I described above.

No, I haven't done it. I learned that from a documentary.

Not the same but quite similar methods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRRUgI_iUXI
The specific tricks you mentioned just wouldn't work. Lipstick would mar the strawberries, moving the pips and leaving greasy lumps, and while a hair-drier can be used to dry food, it ain't hot enough to crisp it. For the former it might be possible to use red dye in a perfume spray (though I'm not sure what it would do to the pips) and for the latter a hot-air paint stripper might work, though a blowtorch would almost certainly be better.

As I say, there is some fakery -- salt in beer gives a good head -- but I'd be deeply suspicious of a documentary which used the examples you gave.

Undercooking is normal (you just cook it some more for the hungry assistants afterwards) but one of my favourite memories was making Tequila Sunrises. It took five attempts to make a good one, and neither Frances nor I likes tequila, but one of our assistants did. She was quite happy by the end of the shoot.

The trick, incidentally, is to use a funnel. Start with it touching the bottom of the glass and raise it slowly as you add the grenadine syrup.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #118
helenhill
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Dear Helen,

No. There is a third option.

Ignore.

Cheers,

R.

Yes Indeed, Good One, 'Ignore'
Point well taken... Thank You Roger
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Old 08-04-2018   #119
PKR
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Hi,

I'm not up to date because I stopped buying food that looks good in the picture on the boxs and turns out to be a disappointment. As for your studio shots, I don't doubt it but are the bakers and chefs making the ones that I buy and pay for?

I can understand chef's doing their bit for a cookery book but the food I'm thinking of looked as though it came off of a conveyor belt....

Regards, David

* Not that you can't get good food if you look around and so on. I've even had good food out of a tin...
David; I can only tell you that much of the food that my friend photographs is off the shelf. As you would expect, he knows where to buy good looking and tasting food.

Most recently, the bread for a photo featuring bread came from this place (link). The site photos reflect the stuff they sell at the bakery.
http://www.dellafattoria.com/bread/bread.html

I haven't seen anyone "doctor" a food shot in years. I'm sure it happens, but, it's illegal in most places.

.
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Old 08-04-2018   #120
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Traditional food photography for advertising actually photos something not yummy at all, for example strawberries painted with red lipsticks to look ultra red, and chicken with skin roasted by hair dryers to look crispy (raw inside), etc.
I think cellphone photos of food are much more honest.
I don't know where you get your info, but I've never seen anything like the things you mention done for a photo. I worked as an assistant to Irving Penn's former studio manager, who shot a lot of food. I did things like sort corn flakes, looking for good ones .. No cracks or chips etc. But, nothing that was featured was phony. We used very expensive plastic ice cubes as, real ones melt and change quickly. But, no phony food.

There are strict laws (FDA) preventing this kind of thing. And frankly, good fresh food subjects photograph best.

One famous NYC food photographer was asked how he always got great food shots..
He replied, I never photograph ugly food.
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