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Is the new Nikon Z mount mirrorless for real?
Old 01-14-2018   #1
CameraQuest
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Is the new Nikon Z mount mirrorless for real?

Let's hope so!

the specs look wonderful,
but of course the devil is in the details and intelligent execution!

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/11/n...distance.aspx/

Its about damned time!
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Old 01-14-2018   #2
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But lots of companies have been known to patent things just to keep their competitors from making them. Still, one can dream.

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Old 01-14-2018   #3
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Seems reasonable for Nikon.

On the positive side the dimensions are such that it should have no problem taking F lenses or S lenses....or M/LTM for that matter.

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Old 01-14-2018   #4
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Could be interesting...
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Old 01-14-2018   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
Seems reasonable for Nikon.

On the positive side the dimensions are such that it should have no problem taking F lenses or S lenses....or M/LTM for that matter.

B2 (;->
It should be adaptable to (almost) every lens. The FBD is less, and the diameter more, than the E mount. But then Nikon doesn't seem like the kind of company to encourage users to use non-Nikon lenses...
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Old 01-14-2018   #6
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Not sure if this innovation is likely to happen. But rest assured there will be innovation.

But I can say this. Nikon has been around enough to understand that success lies in constant innovation to bring new product to the market. I once heard a senior executive in the pharmaceuticals industry say his job was easy in concept - he had to bring in enough money to fund research and development to bring forth new products that generate a new stream of money to fund more research and development to .......well, you get the picture. Same for camera equipment companies it seems to me - the only way those production lines keep running is if people buy. And comes a time when the only way people buy is if there is new kit to sell them.

Besides Nikon also knows that SLR technology is most likely a technological anachronism and eventually it will go the way of the dinosaurs. I am not convinced the replacement would be THIS new camera but no successful camera company puts all of its eggs in one basket and relies upon one stream of revenue from one market segment.
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Old 01-14-2018   #7
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I waited 3 years for this, and finally gave up and sold all my AF Nikon glass and went somewhere else. Am hoping it's not so enticing that I will feel the urge to swing back around.
OTOH, would be great if it was as capable as the D850 in a Nikon SP clone body; the 16mm flange focal distance is pretty short, maybe that will allow something nice, or maybe I don't really know what I'm talking about re: mechano-optical design. Again.
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Old 01-14-2018   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
would be great if it was as capable as the D850 in a Nikon SP clone body;
The never-ending dream of many RFF users! With the price of the D850 too! I'm ready.
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Old 01-14-2018   #9
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Once you get to Z for the mounts, development ends.
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Old 01-14-2018   #10
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Did anyone else follow the links? I saw one article that shows it as having a ½ or 2.5 sensor. That's point and shoot stuff. Would explain the short flange distance.
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Old 01-14-2018   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthfeeble View Post
Did anyone else follow the links? I saw one article that shows it as having a ½ or 2.5 sensor. That's point and shoot stuff. Would explain the short flange distance.
I think that's a separate patent. No need to have a mount diameter of 49mm if it's not a FF sensor.
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Old 01-14-2018   #12
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The links on the page were for the Nikon 1. A fine family camera, just like the early OneTouch.

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Old 01-14-2018   #13
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Old 01-14-2018   #14
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Nikon? yawn...
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Old 01-14-2018   #15
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The new Z mount is not the issue, it is Nikon's lack of lenses that concerns me. Millions of cheap 18-xx kit lenses, but Nikon took 20+ years to produce 24mm and 35mm f/1.4 lenses with autofocus (despite those being PJ staples and Canon being on its 2nd version); no full DX wide primes 15+ years into the DSLR era; no full CX/Nikon 1 lens range; not even a hint of a lens roadmap.

Even if Nikon were to announce a Z mirrorless tomorrow, who knows if and when fast, wide-normal primes (24, 35, 50, f/2 or faster) will be available. For me, the lack of a 35/2 equivalent has made Nikon DX and CX no-gos. Knowing Nikon's history, I'll be waiting quite a while. But I'll have my choice of a dozen 18-xxx zoom variants.

Last edited by Brooklynguy : 01-14-2018 at 19:07. Reason: add
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Old 01-15-2018   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynguy View Post
The new Z mount is not the issue, it is Nikon's lack of lenses that concerns me. Millions of cheap 18-xx kit lenses, but Nikon took 20+ years to produce 24mm and 35mm f/1.4 lenses with autofocus (despite those being PJ staples and Canon being on its 2nd version); no full DX wide primes 15+ years into the DSLR era; no full CX/Nikon 1 lens range; not even a hint of a lens roadmap.

Even if Nikon were to announce a Z mirrorless tomorrow, who knows if and when fast, wide-normal primes (24, 35, 50, f/2 or faster) will be available. For me, the lack of a 35/2 equivalent has made Nikon DX and CX no-gos. Knowing Nikon's history, I'll be waiting quite a while. But I'll have my choice of a dozen 18-xxx zoom variants.
Agreed. Nikons mirrorless is dead in the water unless it's aimed at professionals/prosumers from the get go and release it with a trio of fast PJ primes like Fujifilm did.

Somehow I just can't see Nikon doing that...
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Old 01-15-2018   #17
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I am interested in finding out how Nikon reverses it's decade-old strategy to avoid any new product opportunities that could possibly erode it's DSLR market share.

It will be interesting to see if Nikon assumes mirrorless customers will not be interested in quality prime lenses. Their slow development of APS-C primes indicates they think only 24 X 36 mm DSLR users are interested in primes. When you look at FUJIFILM and the m4/3 market, it's clear sensor area does not influence consumer preference for quality prime lenses. Think how much revenue Nikon purpopsefully lost because they decided NIKON APS-C owners did not deserve quality prime lenses.

Finally, I'm curious to see if Nikon finally decides to support manual focusing beyond a single blinking led light.

I once owned 5 different Nikon DLSR bodies and purchased five new AF Nikkor lenses. No matter what they the Z turns out to be, I will never buy another Nikon product.
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Old 01-15-2018   #18
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Been rumored for a year.

Personally see NO ADVANTAGE to mirrorless. Body may be thinner, then lenses longer.
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Old 01-15-2018   #19
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It will be interesting to see if Nikon wakes up to deal with the disruptive technology or goes into hibernation.

Ditching the DL line was probably a good idea as there hasn't been much traction in that space in a couple of years. Moving along with Canon down the DSLR road, faster AF, more and more MPs, more sensitive sensors, more and more zooms will only work for so long. The competition is already good enough for many folks to switch.

I think the bottom either has or is about to fall out of the Mom&Dad market. If Fuji can break into BestBuy and alike with the X series cameras and lenses they can start eating Nikon's and Canon's lunches. A bit more product placement, advertising to folks other than us and they could eat their breakfast too.

I'm hoping that Nikon will come out with some great primes when the announce this new camera, my gut tells me they wont. There is the place for good zooms, but I fear that they will use post capture processing (in camera) to adjust for lackings in lens design (e.g. major distortion).

As they have probably laid off way too many lens engineers perhaps they should look to CV to do their prime glass (two speeds and price points for the major FLs please and thank you) and Nikon supplies the AF and controls.

Ah to dream on a bright clear cold day.....

B2 (;->
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Old 01-15-2018   #20
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Can't see Nikon half-assing this project. I would expect the camera to perform/operate at the same level of technical competence in the FF mirrorless market as their D850 performs in the dSLR market. It would be nice to have a ready made assortment of lenses available at launch time but that's just not realistic. Adapters and third party optics, along with a couple/few native z-mount lenses from Nikon in the short term.
Best of luck to Nikon!
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Old 01-15-2018   #21
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It worked for Fuji. Of course all us luddite-ish types are hoping for a retro style. Canon has just blown it with that silly M.
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Old 01-15-2018   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
Been rumored for a year.

Personally see NO ADVANTAGE to mirrorless. Body may be thinner, then lenses longer.
Adapted lenses. No mirror slap. and so on.

Size and weight of a camera don't affect me that much as long as I can physically carry it, but the ability to have one digital body, with an up to date first rate sensor, like the one in the D850, coupled with great ergonomics (i.e. for some people, completely unlike Sony bodies, and unlike the Sony menu diving system), which people can use with any 35mm lens they like, regardless of the original manufacturer or mount, is huge for some people.
A thinner body is the least of it.

The ergonomics of the Leica SL are superb, but that's a costly purchase for most, and some people want more megapixels (different discussion) than the SL offers, so a legitimate rationale for Nikon to really step up to the plate and do this right is certainly there.
It's the "doing it right" part that worries the Nikon faithful lately.
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Old 01-16-2018   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthfeeble View Post
...Canon has just blown it with that silly M.
How?








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Old 01-16-2018   #24
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I hope Nikon is willing to gamble on making this camera good without having any concern that it will undercut their SLR line. It's time for Nikon to take some risks and look beyond the mirror. Ultimately, this is about Nikon's survival as a company. I'd rather they didn't make SLRs than they didn't make cameras.
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Old 01-16-2018   #25
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The camera better be fast. It would be hard for anyone to hit the mark with the very first try though.
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Old 01-16-2018   #26
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So Nikon, what's it going to be.......

Are you pulling a Kodak or an IBM?

Will you put your head in the sand further and pull a Kodak, a Wang, ah so many to choose from. OR will you wise up and go down the road of IBM, Apple and a few others who embraced change and continued to grow and thrive?

Nikon had the guts with the F, so how did you make the decision then?

Initially price wont be that much of an issue, but remember how many more Nikkors you sold when the Nikkormat came out.....

B2 (;->
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Old 01-16-2018   #27
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Quote:
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The camera better be fast. It would be hard for anyone to hit the mark with the very first try though.
There's a few out there. The Toyota Tercel was the last one out and was as good as the pack and in many ways much better. Nikon was smart enough, listen to NPS, read here and other sides. They did really well when with the F3. The F3 AF not so much.

Fingers, toes and eyes crossed.

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Old 01-16-2018   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
So Nikon, what's it going to be.......

Are you pulling a Kodak or an IBM?

Will you put your head in the sand further and pull a Kodak, a Wang, ah so many to choose from. OR will you wise up and go down the road of IBM, Apple and a few others who embraced change and continued to grow and thrive?

Nikon had the guts with the F, so how did you make the decision then?

Initially price wont be that much of an issue, but remember how many more Nikkors you sold when the Nikkormat came out.....

B2 (;->
It's very apt to compare Nikon to Kodak. They've been resting on their laurels far too long.
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Old 01-16-2018   #29
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Have a read of Thom Hogan's thoughts on Nikon's new releases for 2018. Brooklynguy zeroed in on the glaring omission of primes. Thom suggests Nikon might finally have realised this. He mentions Nikon's patents for FF primes, but I'm not sure if these are Z-mount (shorter flange distance) or F-mount:
24mm f/1.8
36mm f/1.2
52mm f/0.9
24-70mm f/2.8-4

The above would be IMO the minimum lenses needed on launch to ensure a new FF Z-mount mirrorless doesn't get ignored by all but the relatively few enthusiasts who want to mount non-native lenses.

Thom's article mentions both FF and APS-C mirrorless models to be released, with some uncertainty about which will be released first. Whichever it is, I hope the message got through that a big slice of the enthusiast market will stay away unless there's a decent lens lineup and road map. At the price point of the Z-mount the market would be 100% enthusiasts.
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Old 01-16-2018   #30
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The camera better be fast. It would be hard for anyone to hit the mark with the very first try though.
Nikon has done that before though. The original Nikon 1 was very fast. Arguably faster than every other companies first mirrorless camera.

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Old 01-16-2018   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
Been rumored for a year.

Personally see NO ADVANTAGE to mirrorless. Body may be thinner, then lenses longer.
Bold - Not true.

Actually, when the focal length of the lens is less than or equal to the FBD of the SLR the lenses can be made smaller. True telephoto lenses can also be made smaller.

Two cases;
1. The size difference between the Leica Summicron ASPH and the Nikkor 35/1.8 FX. The Leica is 35mm long (from the flange) and the Nikkor is 71mm long. Add in the ~20mm of extra flange depth to the Nikkor and the difference in length is about 60mm.

2. The same is not true for the Nikkor 85/1.8 vs the Leica 90mm Summicron, the Leica is about 5mm longer than the Nikkor. However, a true telephoto design like the 90mm tele-Elmarit can shrink the length down to ~60mm.

*I'm not including the diameter, as that is highly influenced by focus methods. The length however, is not.
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Old 01-16-2018   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnb View Post
Have a read of Thom Hogan's thoughts on Nikon's new releases for 2018. Brooklynguy zeroed in on the glaring omission of primes. Thom suggests Nikon might finally have realised this. He mentions Nikon's patents for FF primes, but I'm not sure if these are Z-mount (shorter flange distance) or F-mount:
24mm f/1.8
36mm f/1.2
52mm f/0.9
24-70mm f/2.8-4

The above would be IMO the minimum lenses needed on launch to ensure a new FF Z-mount mirrorless doesn't get ignored by all but the relatively few enthusiasts who want to mount non-native lenses.

Thom's article mentions both FF and APS-C mirrorless models to be released, with some uncertainty about which will be released first. Whichever it is, I hope the message got through that a big slice of the enthusiast market will stay away unless there's a decent lens lineup and road map. At the price point of the Z-mount the market would be 100% enthusiasts.
Thanks for the link, Lynn. Thom analyses camera marketing better than any of the web photo pages I read. I would love it if Nikon made a FF mirrorless camera that looked like the RF Nikons of the 50's , and an adapter to use F-mount Nikon lenses, but rational thought like Thom's says that that won't happen. RF enthusiasts like us must be a tiny portion of the market.
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Old 01-16-2018   #33
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Nikon has done that before though. The original Nikon 1 was very fast. Arguably faster than every other companies first mirrorless camera.

Shawn
The 1'' arena was a different story. They thought they were the only game in town but the RX100 horde appeared in no time. On the other hand the a7 was the only game in town - and was allowed enough time for trial and error.

Is the D850 Nikon's first try? Definitely not. But the Z, their actual first try in a new category, will have to compete with the a7R III which is (to many) almost as good as the D850. And unlike Sony, Nikon doesn't have much time.

I do wish them best crossing my fingers over the F6.
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Old 01-16-2018   #34
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The 1'' arena was a different story. They thought they were the only game in town but the RX100 horde appeared in no time. On the other hand the a7 was the only game in town - and was allowed enough time for trial and error.

Is the D850 Nikon's first try? Definitely not. But the Z, their actual first try in a new category, will have to compete with the a7R III which is (to many) almost as good as the D850. And unlike Sony, Nikon doesn't have much time.

I do wish them best crossing my fingers over the F6.
I meant if you look at each companies first generation mirrorless camera (of any sensor size) the Nikon 1 was arguably the fastest of all of them. And faster than some later generations as well. Nikon *can* do it, will they is another question.

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I Hope Nikon Changes
Old 01-17-2018   #35
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I Hope Nikon Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
I meant if you look at each companies first generation mirrorless camera (of any sensor size) the Nikon 1 was arguably the fastest of all of them. And faster than some later generations as well. Nikon *can* do it, will they is another question.

Shawn
The Nikon 1 system is very quick, but it's easy to be quick.

As sensor area decreases, the wider DOF achieved with most lenses and apertures means useful AF algorithms can be simpler and faster. The camera CPU speed and assembly language coding efficiency is less important.

Still, Nikon also has proven engineering expertise with all aspects of AF technology. I agree Nikon is capable of offering the best mirrorless AF versatility and performance on the planet. Yet they refused to provide the best possible manual focusing aids for DSLR customers with AI/AIS lenses.

The issue is whether or not Nikon senior management understands their customers' dedication to excellence is not a function of sensor area, whether or not their camera has a finder with a reflex mirror or how they prefer to use lenses.

So far, Nikon seems to believe they can dictate customer behavior. So, I just gave up and invested in a different brand.

I hope Nikon implements a completely different marketing strategy beginning with the Z mount product line.
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Old 01-17-2018   #36
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So far, Nikon seems to believe they can dictate customer behavior. So, I just gave up and invested in a different brand.

I hope Nikon implements a completely different marketing strategy beginning with the Z mount product line.
So true sir! Nikon wants to engineer their customers.

Me too. Gone to Fuji. But I still have enough Nikon glass that I would go back for the right mirrorless system.
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