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Old 11-22-2017   #81
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The viewfinder on this new CL is what I'm mostly interested on, it looks to be nice and big with 0.74x magnification
I was disappointed to see that the X-E3 VF remained small as I was hoping it would have the nice big X-T2 finder.
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Old 11-22-2017   #82
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
That was a pan-Sony problem, really. I had two or three Sony sensor cameras that needed sensor replacement, from Sony and others. I wouldn't blame that one on Leica. As I recall, the cut-off happened when Sony cancelled the production and stopped funding the replacement procedure.

G
Hmmm, well, um, it had the red Leica logo and the name "Leica" on the front and "Leica Camera Germany" on the back and, having read the catalogue I expected it to behave like a Leica and I expect Leicas to be thoroughly and individually tested...

Having said that I'll add that Leica behave responsibly and I'll risk saying that it's behaved itself ever since I got it back at least a decade ago; I hope the M9 will do the same. (But it's not the oldest digital camera I have and use; the oldest s from 2000.)

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Old 11-22-2017   #83
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The 911 isn't a cheap car in any spec but they are very reliable.
Some ownership experience on your part please. Having owned 2 911's, "very reliable" doesn't quite mesh with my experience. Porsche have always had component design issues. That, typical for all German manufacturers, don't get fixed. The margins are adequate to handle the warranty expense and a redesign would be an admission of flawed engineering. German engineers don't make mistakes, ask them.

My experience, rear main seal bearings, intermediate shafts, poor adhesion between rubber boots and copper oil feed lines.

What makes this acceptable is the service. 1 day to air ship an engine from Germany, another day to install it. Same with the second engine. The oil line was a bit of an issue as so many were failing they had no stock. An immediate jury rigged repair with sewing thread by the service shop lasted until new parts were available. On warranty, service is superb. Off warranty -- it took a class action law suit and years to get Porsche to replace/compensate owners for intermediate shaft failures.

Porsche's are not "very reliable". You are quite correct when you say they're not cheap. Thus rule #1, do not own one off warranty.
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Old 11-22-2017   #84
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I've now viewed a bunch of different video reviews on this camera.

And

I really like it. Once it comes out I'll check it out to see if I can use the EVF (on most cameras they make me nauseous/give me motion sickness).

It's a great size, it looks very responsive, I can use my M lenses with it and it takes sweet pics. I came round, you will too..

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Old 11-22-2017   #85
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I'm actually thinkin about getting it...would be nice with my WATE...and 35 f1.4..pre and asph..maybe perfect...
Are they discounting yet...?...lol..
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Old 11-22-2017   #86
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
That was a pan-Sony problem, really. I had two or three Sony sensor cameras that needed sensor replacement, from Sony and others. I wouldn't blame that one on Leica. As I recall, the cut-off happened when Sony cancelled the production and stopped funding the replacement procedure.

G
But, the X-series and probably the CL and TL have Sony sensors....
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Old 11-22-2017   #87
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at first i was disappointed that leica missed another opportunity to make a lustworthy camera, but the thinking behind the bumpy top plate is winning me over.
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Old 11-22-2017   #88
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Think of it this way... List all the Leica interchangeable mount cameras that have a built in VF.

Leica CL - 24mp - $2800
Leica M 262 - 24mp - $5600
Leica M 240 - 24mp - $6600 (incredible they are still selling this at this price)
Leica M 10 - 24 mp - $6900

Yeah the CL is APS-C but APS-C cameras still are capable of incredible pics. This is why we have the Nikon D500, Sony A6500 etc as well as their FF equivalents.
What we have here is an interchangeable lens (and M mount compatible) Leica camera for half the price of the next cheapest Leica. And think about this, it is the only one that has the AF option. Not bad...

I'm saying history is going to repeat itself. The original CL bludgeoned the sales of the M5, even though the M5 was - and still is - the best film Leica ever made.
This CL has the chance to do the same thing with the current M5 - the M10...
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Old 11-22-2017   #89
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I actually like the camera ... but I just can't pay twice as much as a used X-Pro2 and a lens and three times as much as a used (or even new) X100F. It's nice though. I hope they make a smaller 35mm one day.
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Old 11-22-2017   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
The venom constantly thrown at Leica on this forum is astonishing. Can’t people not care for things without denigrating them?
People are always going to do this until Leica makes a digital M that everyone can afford. The reccurring dream of RFF.
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Old 11-22-2017   #91
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I'm sure the camera's gonna be good, but oh the usual thing, price is high. Native lenses even higher, the lineup leaves me wanting, and gosh look at the size of that 35mm lens. Still I don't know why we could even argue about this after so many years, it's just Leica being normal...

Those who can shed out $4k for a kit would unlikely to be disappointed, but I'm glad we live in a time where choices are plenty and solid.

Now if only the X-Pro3 and X-T3 could utilize that top LCD display like what they already put into the GFX!
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Old 11-22-2017   #92
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I like it, I would not buy it, but like it. Although, would be great if there was some type of hybrid viewfinder like the Xpro...
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Old 11-22-2017   #93
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Have you looked THROUGH the EVF instead of at it? Numbers do not make an image. I guess the EVF is by Panasonic and close to the GX8 one, which is pretty darn good.
I had the GX8. I wear glasses and this EVF is no different outside on sunny days. It sucked. Buyer beware. It's OVF for me.
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Old 11-22-2017   #94
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the internet would be boring if nobody argued.

speaking of the internet, did you hear about the fcc chairman's proposal to screw it up?
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Old 11-22-2017   #95
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This bit sells it for me as I would use it with mf Leica lenses:

"I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting ...Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses."
Minimum vignetting? One would hope there is no vignetting. The 28 Summicron and 50 Summilux are both designed to cover full frame, which is considerably larger than the APS-C sensor. Only the center of the image circle is being used. Classic BS review.
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Old 11-22-2017   #96
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
You can certainly use the 40mm Summicron with it as long as the reduced (60mm equivalent) FoV isn't a problem for you. To get the same FoV on a 1.5x crop sensor, you'll need a 25-27mm lens.

Regards hitting the lottery ... putting ten dollars a week into a piggy bank will probably net you the required money faster than spending a couple of dollars a week on the lottery. The odds of winning the lottery are so low it's more likely you'll be able to walk to the Moon than hit a $5000 jackpot.
Well, to be honest, a brokerage account I inherited from my mother pays enough in dividends to by roughly 2 CLs a year, but I put the money in a Roth IRA.

I might just check out a used one in a few years, I just picked up a 10 megapixel DSLR from www.keh.com for about $300 with the money I had left ...
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Old 11-22-2017   #97
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
That was a pan-Sony problem, really.
Except that the sensor was in a Leica camera, which kind of made it a Leica problem. Invoking the Hans Solo defense is a little disingenuous.
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Old 11-22-2017   #98
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Think of it this way... List all the Leica interchangeable mount cameras that have a built in VF.

Leica CL - 24mp - $2800
Leica M 262 - 24mp - $5600
Leica M 240 - 24mp - $6600 (incredible they are still selling this at this price)
Leica M 10 - 24 mp - $6900
Price comparison with the M models are somehow useless, the M is unique and actual the only digital rangefinder in the market, they could ask 10K for an M10 and people would buy it, me too if I had the money (and better eyes). The CL is a admittedly nice but never the less a run-of-the-mill APS-C camera and has quite a few competitors, and with this price tag not only in the APS-C market. Don't get me wrong, I normally don't blame Leica for their prices knowing that they can't (and don't) have to be on the same level like a Fuji or a Sony, no arguing here, their products are special and this is what you or me pay for, but serious, $3,8k for a technically average APS-C camera with an average 28mm (equiv.)? Thats even in Leica terms insane and imho no longer justifiable.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 11-22-2017   #99
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CL is not a run of the mill APS-C camera, as it is the only one that works really well with M mount lenses.
If you don't care about that, then yeah, a cheaper one makes more sense.
It's a new $2800 24mp M body to me, as I already have a tub full o' M lenses.
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Old 11-22-2017   #100
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Have you looked THROUGH the EVF instead of at it? Numbers do not make an image. I guess the EVF is by Panasonic and close to the GX8 one, which is pretty darn good.
I will on Friday. Leica Store says they will have their demo in then. I'll take along an SD card and perhaps some M lenses to use on it.
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Old 11-22-2017   #101
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Huss...definitely interested in your findings there..
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Old 11-22-2017   #102
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Nice to see some pics too..!

Last edited by Emile de Leon : 11-22-2017 at 21:25. Reason: duplicate
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Old 11-22-2017   #103
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
CL is not a run of the mill APS-C camera, as it is the only one that works really well with M mount lenses.
Let see if this is really the case, besides, the Fujis as well as the Sony A7x have only a problems with some lenses, mostly WA. My 35 Cron and 50 Lux work flawlessly on both platforms, similar to most of the other M-lenses, just don't like to focus via EVF, that why I would never consider them or the CL as alternative to a M.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
It's a new $2800 24mp M body to me, as I already have a tub full o' M lenses.
Well, but it's still no M. Or would you pay 100K for a Toyota Corolla because you can put in a Porsche engine?

Don't you have an M body? Because for a few bucks more you get a used M240 these days, 24MP, FF and a real Rangefinder, plus EVF if you need it.

Be it as it may, Leica should imho put more effort in their Q- (especially Firmware updates, just saying) and M-series instead of wasting time with merciless overpriced APS-C cameras or in some parts SLs. The competition in this segment is simply too strong with mostly near equal quality and form factor for a third of the price. An M is even w/o CCD special and unique, a Q somehow too, that's what people pay for and this is the only reason Leica still exists.

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Old 11-23-2017   #104
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Might be a nice backup for M users who absolutely refuse to use a Sony a7 / a6000.
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Old 11-23-2017   #105
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I like it, but it is out of my price range.
I have no experience with Leica digital, other than the M8 for a short time. Actually, a redesigned M8 with a silent shutter and better ISO would have been great.
Anyway, I will have to stick with my Nex 7 for now (I do have a nice Summaron on it)
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Old 11-23-2017   #106
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IMO what would really make this take off is a Leica quality focal length converting M adapter.
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Old 11-23-2017   #107
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
But, the X-series and probably the CL and TL have Sony sensors....
And so what? I don't know whether they do or not.
No problems with them anyway, far as I'm aware.

What point are you trying to make?
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Old 11-23-2017   #108
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Hmmm, well, um, it had the red Leica logo and the name "Leica" on the front and "Leica Camera Germany" on the back and, having read the catalogue I expected it to behave like a Leica and I expect Leicas to be thoroughly and individually tested...

Having said that I'll add that Leica behave responsibly and I'll risk saying that it's behaved itself ever since I got it back at least a decade ago; I hope the M9 will do the same. (But it's not the oldest digital camera I have and use; the oldest s from 2000.)

Regards, David
"Thorough and individual testing" mean nothing when a problem endemic to the manufacture of a component requires a few YEARs to become evident, which is what happened with the M9 sensor family. Do you want Leica to build a camera and use it for a decade before they release it for sale?? That's not going to make the "want the latest, bleeding edge innovation NOW" crowd.
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Old 11-23-2017   #109
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Except that the sensor was in a Leica camera, which kind of made it a Leica problem. Invoking the Hans Solo defense is a little disingenuous.
I don't think it is when the same sensor used in Leica, Pentax, Olympus, and Sony has problems, and is made by Sony; when all fail in the same way and require replacement by Sony through the individual manufacturers. And when Sony funded both the manufacture of the replacements and the different manufacturers' repair programs to solve the issue.

That's not a Leica, Pentax, or Olympus camera problem ... it's a Sony component problem.

G
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Old 11-23-2017   #110
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CL is not a run of the mill APS-C camera, as it is the only one that works really well with M mount lenses.
Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL. I was hopeful of the CL being an APS-C EVF M alternative, but I'm not (yet) seeing it.
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Old 11-23-2017   #111
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Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL. I was hopeful of the CL being an APS-C EVF M alternative, but I'm not (yet) seeing it.
I think the SL is the EVF M alternative. Using an APS-C camera with FF lenses is a problem FOV wise on the normal and wide end.
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Old 11-23-2017   #112
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FWIW, Dpreview reports that the 18mm CL lens is manufactured in Japan. Fortunately, if it turns out not to be an excellent lens, according to Godfrey, it won’t be a Leica problem.
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Old 11-23-2017   #113
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...
Don't you have an M body? ...
It has nothing to do with it. All what is matter is Made in Germany. Not only made, but designed in Germany and by the German.

You could put in Corolla entire Tesla hot rod, but it is still going to looks like Toyota. Lexus never going to be Mercedes. People with big money are paying not for guts inside, but for how it looks and feels.

And of course it is going to cost twice if it is made in Germany for obvious reasons. The price includes Leica labor, which doesn't work every other Friday, have billiards, vending machines with beer at work, which makes them slow and slightly sloppy every afternoon and taxes for Leica to pay which goes to support not only Germany and German people.
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Old 11-23-2017   #114
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"Thorough and individual testing" mean nothing when a problem endemic to the manufacture of a component requires a few YEARs to become evident, which is what happened with the M9 sensor family. Do you want Leica to build a camera and use it for a decade before they release it for sale?? That's not going to make the "want the latest, bleeding edge innovation NOW" crowd.
Hmm, well, I don't know if all of them failed or just a batch or what so I can't answer that.

As for the bleeding etc crowd; I'm glad I'm in the tried and tested and lasts forever mob. I thought we all were, as Leica users.

Regards, David
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Old 11-23-2017   #115
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Leica is like this guy...when they have a problem...
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Old 11-23-2017   #116
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Hmm, well, I don't know if all of them failed or just a batch or what so I can't answer that.
It was the batch made between 2009 to 2014.
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Old 11-23-2017   #117
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People are always going to do this until Leica makes a digital M that everyone can afford. The reccurring dream of RFF.
If the CL were marketed as a Lumix at this price, I think there would be the same amount of derision, which begs the question, what does it being a Leica bring to the table.
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Old 11-23-2017   #118
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Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL.
Predictable really. M lens belong on a M body... IMO.
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Old 11-23-2017   #119
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If the CL were marketed as a Lumix at this price, I think there would be the same amount of derision, which begs the question, what does it being a Leica bring to the table.
Even more so... but Panasonic does not have the name to charge this price. That is why Leica gets heat. They do have the name to charge this price.
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Old 11-23-2017   #120
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Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL. I was hopeful of the CL being an APS-C EVF M alternative, but I'm not (yet) seeing it.
http://www.slack.co.uk/leica-cl.html
I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting and no visible smearing. Very comparable to those from the Leica SL and nearly as good as those from the Leica M10. In comparison, the Fuji images were poor, even on the 50 ‘lux; the centre was sharp, but smearing was very evident away from the centre of the image. Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses.

I have had a long discussion with Sean Reid at ReidReviews about this and he agrees with me. He feels that the issue is largely to do with the thickness of the cover glass (the CL does not have an AA filter). Of course, Fujifilm have other priorities, and you wouldn’t expect them to spend a lot of time and money compromising their sensor design for other manufacturers to sell more lenses!
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