Staining developers
Old 09-27-2019   #1
CharlesDAMorgan
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Staining developers

I thoroughly enjoy developing black and white film at home, and I'm keen to try using staining developers - my research reveals different types of Pyro and Tanol. My aim is to develop faster films with sharpness but with less obvious grain, but also, and probably more important, to try something different. The winter is coming and I will spend longer in my kitchen, I mean darkroom!

I'd be really grateful for thoughts, experiences and suggestions about which developers to try and what to look out for.
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Old 09-27-2019   #2
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Hi Charles,

you might take a look at:
https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/lang:en
you will find datasheets for most films.
Temperature and agitation also the information about the stop bath and the fixer are important.
Older films are more tanol like
Modern fine grain films more finol like, you get more speed.
I use them for a long time and I am very satisfied
Don´t want to make a commercial but hope it helps finding what you are looking for.
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Old 09-27-2019   #3
Larry H-L
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I have used Pyrocat HD and more recently Pyrocat MC, both 1:1:100. It looks really good on larger format film, but it is too grainy for my taste on 35mm, with a look that is similar to Rodinal-like developers.

Pyrocat gives a slight yellow/brown stain, but I don't see any benefit of the stain except when contact printing large format negatives.

It comes in easy-to-use liquid form in two bottles, good shelf life in concentrated, unmixed form. I tried stand development, but got terrible streaks, so I have gone back to regular agitation. You can also use Pryocat as separate two part developers, similar to using Diafine. Good luck.
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Old 09-27-2019   #4
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Thank you both - those links are spectacular Sem, really helpful, also your experiences Larry H-L. I'd rather not get the grain of Rodinal from a developer I'd like to reduce grain. I'll do some more research on tanol and finol, any others' input welcome!
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Old 09-27-2019   #5
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I got started using PMK Pyro based on my admiration for the work of New Zealander, Rick Drawbridge. His images show an amazing tonal range and fine grain, even with cheap films like Kentmere. An interesting aspect of his technique is that he does gentle agitation at one-minute intervals which is a big departure from the box-recommended 15 seconds. The only downside I have encountered is that you lose one stop in film sensitivity with PMK. I have read that Hypercat does not have the speed penalty, so I may give that a try.
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Old 09-27-2019   #6
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Thanks Mike - the lower agitation bit makes sense from a normal developer standpoint. A great link to some lovely images.
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Old 09-27-2019   #7
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https://www.sandykingphotography.com...ing-developers

Charles, there is a fair amount of information out there, and this is a decent start. I have only ever used PMK myself and really like it, but mostly use it with slower speed films like FP4+, shot at even slower speeds, and mostly use it to get tonality effects I cannot achieve elsewhere, not reduced grain. Grain is lovely with slower speed films, but too much for me with things like Tri-x, just a personal taste.
Not an expert myself, but found it well worth exploring. People are sure to decry the toxicity, but be careful and it’s not an issue, or at least needn’t be, again a personal opinion only.

Gordon Hutchings “The Book of Pyro” is probably the definitive source as I am sure others will point out. Out of print, but copies can be found, and worth the asking price, whatever it is.

Plenty of information out there, and worth pursuing. Have fun!
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Old 09-27-2019   #8
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Thanks Larry, most helpful! I plan to pick the brains of the photographer who made me my pinhole camera and who has been using Pyro for decades. Possibly in the next fortnight.
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Old 09-27-2019   #9
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Hi Charles!

here can find the results film + developer in real live:

https://www.flickr.com/groups/moersch/

Hope you´ll find what are you looking for!
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Old 09-27-2019   #10
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I'm a big fan of PMK, and have used it for 13 years. Its not my only developer, but for some films I really love it. In my experience it works best on Ilford FP4 and HP5, and on Foma films. It is also good on Tmax 100 amd Tmax 400; less stain than on Ilford films, but great tonality and sharpness.


It does not work well on Ilford Pan-F and I don't really like it with Tri-X either.
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Old 09-27-2019   #11
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As I have a fairly large stock of Bergger Pancro floating around I'll start with PMK Pyro and see how that goes. When I next order in stuff from Fotoimpex I'll get some Moersch, but I'll research which first.

Thanks all so far, it really has been tremendously helpful. I found that link on the Moersch site thanks to your earlier link Sem - it's amazingly good. Not that my photos will turn out like that...
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Old 09-27-2019   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesDAMorgan View Post
As I have a fairly large stock of Bergger Pancro floating around I'll start with PMK Pyro and see how that goes. When I next order in stuff from Fotoimpex I'll get some Moersch, but I'll research which first.

Thanks all so far, it really has been tremendously helpful. I found that link on the Moersch site thanks to your earlier link Sem - it's amazingly good. Not that my photos will turn out like that...
If you ever decide to use PMK with Ilford, Kodak, Foma, or Fuji Acros check out my tested developing times for those films.

http://crawfordphotoschool.com/film/...ping.php?tab=3
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Old 09-27-2019   #13
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I've been using staining developers for more than 20yrs, starting with PMK and then switching to Sandy King's Pyrocat (lower toxicity). It's my standard film developer. Print times are shorter with Pyrocat than with the denser stain of PMK. PMK printed particularly well on graded papers. Both produce negatives with beautiful separation in the highlights that print easily. As far as grain, both work very well on any film (with
greater edge effect on non-T grain films) and do not show any exaggerated grain at all. It's a great developer for smaller formats. My usual films are Ilford FP4+ and Tri-X in 35mm, 120, & 5x7."
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Old 09-27-2019   #14
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Just remember the pyro developers can be quite toxic and are suspected mutagens/carcinogens. Try to stick with the liquid concentrates (avoid mixing powders absent special equipment to prevent powder inhalation) and wear nitrile gloves to avoid absorption and skin staining.
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Old 09-27-2019   #15
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Thanks Chris, Deardorff and dtcls100. I have all the safety kit, although the Bergger PMK I've ordered is liquid. I need to track down some alkaline fixer too.
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Old 09-27-2019   #16
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Is the value of the staining process "lost" when scanning the negative vs. wet printing?
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Old 09-27-2019   #17
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Good question! Although you do have negatives you can wet print later (my plan when, if!, I move).
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Old 09-27-2019   #18
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Quote:
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Is the value of the staining process "lost" when scanning the negative vs. wet printing?
I find that I get much better scanning results with Pyro-M or HD, and for the few rolls I did in pyro-510, than i do/did with non staining developers.

regardless, I prefer the printed results I get with pyro developed film over non pyro types. This is for both scanned prints and wet dark room prints.

john
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Old 09-27-2019   #19
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Is the value of the staining process "lost" when scanning the negative vs. wet printing?
no, its not. PMK negatives scan beautifully.
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Old 09-27-2019   #20
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Pyrocat HD for large format HP5
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Old 09-27-2019   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtcls100 View Post
Just remember the pyro developers can be quite toxic and are suspected mutagens/carcinogens. Try to stick with the liquid concentrates (avoid mixing powders absent special equipment to prevent powder inhalation) and wear nitrile gloves to avoid absorption and skin staining.
Pyrocatechol and pyrogallol are no more toxic than hydroquinone, which is in most developers. Be careful with all of them.

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Old 10-02-2019   #22
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Hooray! PMK arrived today, but I have to wait for the Alkaline fix to arrive from Germany, as the only UK supplier had none in stock, and would have to order it in.

A question on stop bath - I currently use Ilfostop - should I use that or something else?
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Old 10-02-2019   #23
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Originally Posted by CharlesDAMorgan View Post
Hooray! PMK arrived today, but I have to wait for the Alkaline fix to arrive from Germany, as the only UK supplier had none in stock, and would have to order it in.

A question on stop bath - I currently use Ilfostop - should I use that or something else?
I've only ever used a water stop, but that goes for all my films wether developed in pyro or otherwise.

I went on a hunt for Alkaline fixers after Fotospeed discontinued their FX40 alkali fixer. I have a list of UK suppliers stocking various alkali fixers, I'll dig it out for you.
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Old 10-02-2019   #24
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Pashmo that would be most kind, thank you!
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Old 10-02-2019   #25
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Pashmo that would be most kind, thank you!
I’ve had a quick look about and first call photographic have stock of Tetenal Superfix odourless and Rollei RXN. Although not strictly Alkaline they are pH neutral so better than a traditional fix for pyro devs.

If you don’t mind waiting a few days then Fotoimpex have stock of Moersch’s ATS alkaline fixer. I’ve bought from them before and delivery was faster than buying in the UK sometimes.

I also have a few recipes for home made alkali fixers if you want to go down that route. Very easy to make.
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Old 10-02-2019   #26
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I believe a plain water stop is recommended (fill the tank, drain, repeat once more, then fix).
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Old 10-02-2019   #27
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I've always used a double water rinse when developing film with PMK+

I also just bought a fresh bottle, and some TD-54 fixer from FF. And some fresh Amidol.
I use a flat toothpick to add a "pinch" which turns PMK into PMK+
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Old 10-02-2019   #28
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As several others have pointed out, use plain water instead of acid stop bath. Anything acidic destroys image stain.
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Old 10-02-2019   #29
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Thanks all, pure water it shall be.

Pashmo - I ordered some from Fotoimpex on Monday, I always find them to be very well priced (especially film) and as or even more rapid than most UK suppliers, which is sad in a way, but hey ho.
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Old 10-02-2019   #30
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I've always used a double water rinse when developing film with PMK+

I also just bought a fresh bottle, and some TD-54 fixer from FF. And some fresh Amidol.
I use a flat toothpick to add a "pinch" which turns PMK into PMK+
I'm officially intrigued.
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Old 10-02-2019   #31
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It's in the "Book of Pyro". A pinch of Amidol will add 1/3 to 1/2 stop actual shadow film speed. All you need is a box of flat toothpicks, and a very small amount of Amidol.
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Old 10-02-2019   #32
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Thanks! I'll start with the normal first and see how it goes.
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Old 10-08-2019   #33
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Moersch alkaline fixer arrived today so were it not for some house viewings (selling a house is a royal PITA) I'd have got going already. I'm assuming it's like normal fixer in that you mix it and then reuse until in need of replenishment.

A big thanks to Chris Crawford - his information on developing is first rate. http://crawfordphotoschool.com/film/...ping.php?tab=3
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Old 10-08-2019   #34
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A horrible feeling went through my mind as I just looked at the negatives hanging to dry. I used the PMK recipe for Bergger at 400 from Bergger itself and the images look very under. Then I realised I might well have put in 300 + 1 + 2 rather than 300 + 3 + 6. On the other hand 18 minutes at 20 seemed very long.

Oh well, the best time to make a mistake is with a trial roll!
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Old 10-08-2019   #35
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Under a bit, but those highlight tones are exquisite. The home of Nescafe nears its end at Hayes. From the train with an Olympus 35RD, Bergger Pancro 400 at 400 in PMK Pyro 1+2+300 for 18 minutes at 20c, using the Chris Crawford 1 min agitation at the start, then 2 each 15 seconds. Felt like hours...

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Old 10-08-2019   #36
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Charles,


I'm glad I was able to help you. Your first effort looks good. My first time had spots and streaks! The only problem with yours is the darker tones are kind of flat; I think that's from using the incorrect dilution. Next time should come out much better!


When you run out of the Bergger film, try some Ilford HP5 or FP4; they're incredible in PMK!
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Old 10-08-2019   #37
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Thanks Chris - the camera's now loaded with HP5 and I will not muck up the dilution again. Your guidance steered me well away from heffalump traps (except of my own making!).
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Old 10-09-2019   #38
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A roll of Tmax400 at 200 just out of the tank. Proper dilutions this time, done using Chris's guidance on Tmax (I shaved 30 secs off the end to reflect the slightly greater exposure at 200 rather than 250) and all done at 24c. Much, much nicer negatives. Now I have to wait for them to dry.

Meanwhile, please someone buy my house so I can move and set up a proper darkroom with enlargers! Film is a total experience.
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Old 10-09-2019   #39
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A roll of Tmax400 at 200 just out of the tank. Proper dilutions this time, done using Chris's guidance on Tmax (I shaved 30 secs off the end to reflect the slightly greater exposure at 200 rather than 250) and all done at 24c. Much, much nicer negatives. Now I have to wait for them to dry.

Meanwhile, please someone buy my house so I can move and set up a proper darkroom with enlargers! Film is a total experience.



Awesome! Post some pics once you get them scanned.
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Old 10-09-2019   #40
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Just exquisite negatives. I know Tmax400 is a stunning film, and I was shooting with my beautiful 105mm Nikkor DC f2, but the results are above that.

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