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Old 11-20-2018   #81
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
M-E ISO160 is not high dynamic image. It is just like digitized slide.

Back to real life, in my family and among people who is using my photography all of talks like these are totally irrelevant. Nobody cares as long as image is in focus and exposed well.
M-E does it better and it doesn't feel too digital .
And nobody need huge prints among us, we are not mansion people...

But obviously, M-E and M4-2 is not the high end combo for forums dwellers, even at RFF...
Ok, I think we agree... and agree about needs. However, huge prints are for mansion people, but Leicas are not?
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Old 11-20-2018   #82
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A Fuji xpro2 is a much better camera than a Leica M9 because the x has more advanced technology which gives a much better image quality and it costs almost half the price, new.

I understand one may prefer the ergonomics of a Leica M9 but you are buying lesser image quality. That does not mean you will produce lesser pictures.. a good picture is more than image quality.
Well, I prefer the X-Pro2, but if you want to use Leica M lenses and like a mechanical rangefinder, the Fuji won`t scratch that itch.
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Old 11-20-2018   #83
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A Fuji xpro2 is a much better camera than a Leica M9 because the x has more advanced technology which gives a much better image quality and it costs almost half the price, new.

I understand one may prefer the ergonomics of a Leica M9 but you are buying lesser image quality. That does not mean you will produce lesser pictures.. a good picture is more than image quality.
It is a heavy cropper. And this is it. Limited to its own and not so suatable for manual focusing lenses. And it has no rangefinder.

It is like Nikon F3 is better than Leica M6, but people are still buying M6.
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Old 11-20-2018   #84
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Well, I prefer the X-Pro2, but if you want to use Leica M lenses and like a mechanical rangefinder, the Fuji won`t scratch that itch.
It seems I could use those Leica lenses on a Fuji...can I? Main reason for a Leica is manual focus and zone focusing. I donīt care for autofocus. Fuji looks like a rangefinder but Fuji lenses have no distance marks on the lens. Whatīs the point of an optical vf if you donīt zone focus?

My pick is the xe3 because it has no OVF. I will have a Leica for OVF... and a film one because we should develop film. Itīs a mistake to depend entirely on adobe or any other of those companies.

Leica is right in dumping live vision, screen and playbacks... If there is one thing that bothers me deeply is anyone asking me to see the pics right away. I donīt see the pics until I develop them somehow. I donīt want to see if I nailed focus and repeat... I canīt repeat.
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Old 11-20-2018   #85
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Ok, I think we agree... and agree about needs. However, huge prints are for mansion people, but Leicas are not?
My M-E was 3K USD new from official Leica dealer in Moscow. Where are people living is small apartments in Moscow and St. Peterburg who owns digital Leica.

If you have huge hallways then big prints are needed. For one million GTA cookie cutters big prints ain't better, either.
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Old 11-20-2018   #86
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A Leica M9 costs nothing new. It was discontinued years ago. Although we can debate your doubtful statement about image quality - many M9 users prefer the way a ccd sensor renders-, it is rather silly to compare new prices and technology of cameras that are several generations apart.
You are right. Let me rephrase: a Fuji xpro2 , new, costs half the price of a USED Leica M9 and it has a much better sensor. Better from an engineering and light sensibility POV.

The ccd love is denial most of the time. My D700 which has a great ccd sensor at 200 asa fails miserably above 1000 asa.
Digital images are supposed to be tweaked at photo shop or other programs. Get your cmos image and work those colors.

Cell phones produze great images w/ CMOS but i canīt use a phone to shoot fast and capture moments. It does not work for me. If it did i would use it.

No, it is not silly to compare old and new cameras. People compare a Leica M3 w/ an M6 or M7 all the time so why not compare a ccd x cmos cameras? Oh... but one of them is not a Leica and Leicas are "magical". Actually itīs a camera. Itīs engineering and design. Great design most of the time but poor engineering sometimes. If the CCD wonīt let me take a great picture because of its limitations.. that does not make it lovely but a limited, crappy tool. if you want to pay 2 times for it instead of a better tool.. well, itīs a free world i guess. ( i didnīt even mention the corroded ccd issue)
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Old 11-20-2018   #87
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It seems i could use those leica lenses on a Fuji...can I? Main reason for a Leica is manual focus and zone focusing. I donīt care for autofocus. Fuji looks like a rangefinder but fuji lenses have no distance marks on the lens. Whatīs the point of an optical vf if you donīt zone focus?
If you like 35mm lens, you need Leica 24 lens on this cropper. And here is next to none Leica 24mm lens at 35 Leica lens price range. Skopar 25 is the only one which makes sense.

And if you like 28 lens here is next to no Leica lens for cropper to be 28mm lens.

Leica lens or any lens on cropper is not the same lens as on FF. Part of the image, character is cropped.
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Old 11-20-2018   #88
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My M-E was 3K USD new from official Leica dealer in Moscow. Where are people living is small apartments in Moscow and St. Petersburg who owns digital Leica.

If you have huge hallways then big prints are needed. For one million GTA cookie cutters big prints ain't better, either.
I print to hang on places other than home. All the people I know who print big are placing their work on public spaces to be seen by the general public.
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Old 11-20-2018   #89
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If you like 35mm lens, you need Leica 24 lens on this cropper. And here is next to none Leica 24mm lens at 35 Leica lens price range. Skopar 245 is the only one which makes sense.

And if you like 28 lens here is next to no Leica lens for cropper to be 28mm lens.

Leica lens or any lens on cropper is not the same lens as on FF. Part of the image, character is cropped.
You are right. There is no equivalent and thatīs another reason to say Fujis are not Leica substitutes.
Fuji should build a small, lightweight zoom for the xe3. Digital cameras are allergic to dust and everytime you swap lenses you open the door for dust to get in the sensor.
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Old 11-20-2018   #90
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It is a heavy cropper. And this is it. Limited to its own and not so suatable for manual focusing lenses. And it has no rangefinder.

It is like Nikon F3 is better than Leica M6, but people are still buying M6.
The F3 is not better than an M6. They are different animals. Fujis copy Leicas. They try to look like Leicas and pretend to be rangefinders. Sometimes they are much better but they are not what they try to look like.
Nikon F3 is an slr camera. It is almost the opposite of a Leica: it is good w/ tele and macro lens. Its viewfinder blocks everything outside the image and itīs absolutely precise and faithful to what you will get on film including out of focus parts of the image. Leica is good at wide angle lens and you are in touch w/ what you chose to be inside and outside the frame.
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Old 11-20-2018   #91
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
My M-E was 3K USD new from official Leica dealer in Moscow. Where are people living is small apartments in Moscow and St. Peterburg who owns digital Leica.

If you have huge hallways then big prints are needed. For one million GTA cookie cutters big prints ain't better, either.
You are only thinking of your specific needs... your family. There are other reasons that people photograph.

Good deal for a Leica, but still super expensive. I`m not judging. I`ve done it too. But if you can afford a $3000 camera, you can make some big prints.
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Old 11-20-2018   #92
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It seems i could use those leica lenses on a Fuji...can I?
You can, but with a crop and a different MF system. It`s just not the same experience.

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Originally Posted by colker View Post
Main reason for a Leica is manual focus and zone focusing. I donīt care for autofocus. Fuji looks like a rangefinder but fuji lenses have no distance marks on the lens. Whatīs the point of an optical vf if you donīt zone focus?
Seeing outside of the frame?
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Old 11-20-2018   #93
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The F3 is not better than an M6. They are different animals. Fujis copy Leicas. They try to look like Leicas and pretend to be rangefinders. Sometimes they are much better but they are not what they try to look like.
I think you have to bring the Contax G series (X-Pro) and RTS series (X-T) into the Fuji copy story too. The only blatantly Leica looking camera is the X100 series.
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Old 11-20-2018   #94
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Fuji should build a small, lightweight zoom for the xe3. Digtal cameras are alergic to dust and everytime you swap lenses you open the door for dust to get in the sensor.
How much smaller can they make them?
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Old 11-20-2018   #95
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You are only thinking of your specific needs... your family. There are other reasons that people photograph.

Good deal for a Leica, but still super expensive. I`m not judging. I`ve done it too. But if you can afford a $3000 camera, you can make some big prints.
M-E is the gift to me from my mother at my 50th BD. Prior to this was going to sell some of my gear to get it .
Couple of months ago we spend 3K to buy photo gear from our daughter,

I think only 1% from those who takes images cares, have some reason for big prints,
My case is 99%. Which is family pictures, friends pictures, some prints to remote friends and as files to all of them.
My only specific is my illustrated stories here at RFF and in LJ in the past,
LJ part was widely copied on other sites to generate traffic, Without permission and copyrights,
I have also my photos published locally and at some web sites. Like Canadian National Geographics site.
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Old 11-20-2018   #96
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How much smaller can they make them?
Small like the zoom on the fuji x30.

The 18 -55 is big and brings too much attention while shooting.
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Old 11-20-2018   #97
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I think you have to bring the Contax G series (X-Pro) and RTS series (X-T) into the Fuji copy story too. The only blatantly Leica looking camera is the X100 series.
The X100 looks more like an old Yashica rangefinder to me w/ its fixed lens.
The x pro w/ its many lenses is more like Leica but yeah... the Contax is the basis for the xpro. Not Leica.
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Old 11-20-2018   #98
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M-E is the gift to me from my mother at my 50th BD. Prior to this was going to sell some of my gear to get it .
Couple of months ago we spend 3K to buy photo gear from our daughter,

I think only 1% from those who takes images cares, have some reason for big prints,
My case is 99%. Which is family pictures, friends pictures, some prints to remote friends and as files to all of them.
My only specific is my illustrated stories here at RFF and in LJ in the past,
LJ part was widely copied on other sites to generate traffic, Without permission and copyrights,
I have also my photos published locally and at some web sites. Like Canadian National Geographics site.
If you donīt print big why the need for a 3k prime lens?
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Old 11-20-2018   #99
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Originally Posted by colker View Post
If you donīt print big why the need for a 3k prime lens?
You could ask that question about anything we buy .
Because we can ?
If you`re not dependant on photography for a living you don`t need to justify the cost as much … if you don`t want to.

It may be a waste of money but then many things are.

Why to people buy luxury cars just to go to the supermarket ?
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Old 11-20-2018   #100
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You could ask that question about anything we buy .
Because we can ?
If you`re not dependant on photography for a living you don`t need to justify the cost as much … if you don`t want to.

It may be a waste of money but then many things are.

Why to people buy luxury cars just to go to the supermarket ?
"We buy"? No... I am on a different path. I use whatever camera I need and this is not necessarily related to money making. My shelves are piled w/ weird contraptions, cheap cameras, expensive cameras, lightning, old Bolex... everything was used to create something in a timely manner.

"Because we can"? You can buy Leica like jewelry or Porsche but thatīs how it became a symbol for decadence while Nikon was associated w/ creative photography.
You can buy ultra expensive lens just because you can... but the masses can laugh at M digital Leicas becoming paper weights.
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Old 11-20-2018   #101
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Sorry I understood little of that.
You seem to be making a number of different unrelated points there.
I wasn`t speaking in a personal capacity ….my gear is modest but I don`t associate the terms jewellery and decadence with photographic gear …. its just gear.
Neither do I associate Nikon or indeed any other brand with creative photography.

I only associate individual photographers with creativity.

"but the masses can laugh at m digital leicas becoming paper weights".
What relevance does that have to anything ?
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Old 11-20-2018   #102
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Sorry I understood little of that.
I am sure somebody eventually will understand.
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Old 11-20-2018   #103
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The 18 -55 is big and brings too much attention while shooting.
And I thought it was holding a black box in front of your face that draws attention.
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Old 11-20-2018   #104
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And I thought it was holding a black box in front of your face that draws attention.
My x30 has a tiny silver zoom on an already tiny silver camera. Fuji could sell a zoom w/ the size of their 23mm and make it silver.
There goes away the black box.
If you are selling a half frame sensor than at least make everything small
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Old 11-20-2018   #105
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The X100 looks more like an old yashica rangefinder to me w/ itīs fixed lens.
The x pro w/ itīs many lenses is more like leica but yeah... the contax is the basis for the xpro. Not Leica.
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Old 11-20-2018   #106
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My x30 has a tiny silver zoom on an already tiny silver camera. Fuji could sell a zoom w/ the size of their 23mm and make it silver.
There goes away the black box.
If you are selling a half frame sensor than at least make everything small
You are comparing a tiny sensor to apsc.
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Old 11-20-2018   #107
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Small like the zoom on the fuji x30.

The 18 -55 is big and brings too much attention while shooting.
You bring attention to yourself when shooting not a little zoom.
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Old 11-20-2018   #108
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You bring attention to yourself when shooting not a little zoom.
A smaller camera strapped on your shoulder calls less attention than a bigger camera. The lens is the biggest culprit.
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Old 11-20-2018   #109
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You are comparing a tiny sensor to apsc.
I know but i am sure fuji engineers can flex their skills and come up w/ a better design than those 18_55.

Small is the new black.

btw.. that tiny sensor can give some interesting images.
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Old 11-20-2018   #110
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Visually very different. The feel at your hands is even more different. The Fuji X100reminds me of 70s japanese rangefinders and there isnīt anything wrong w/that.
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Old 11-20-2018   #111
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If you donīt print big why the need for a 3k prime lens?
I have no 3K lens. I have 1.1K USD purchased new Leica prime lens and used 950 USD Leica prime lens.
1.1K Leica lens is visible on 8x10 darkroom prints, in comparison with similar non Leica made.
950 USD at some point is going to be replaced by couple of non Leica made ones. Or another 1K used Leica made.
I have used 750 $ used Leica lens before at it was very different on 8x10 darkroom prints, comparing to non Leica similar ones.

I don't have photo gear special insurance, don't want 3K lens without it on streets and travel. Old Lux 35 is close to 3K lens now.
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Old 11-20-2018   #112
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" Is the M9 price falling with the stock market?"

I wish. The M9 was introduced in September 2009. The Dow was at ~9700. Today the Dow closed at 25017.
I'm glad the price did not go up with the stock market.

When the market moves to a bear market, luxury goods might get a slapping. Except the best branded, to signify and defy.
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Old 11-20-2018   #113
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Visually very different. The feel at your hands is even more different. The Fuji X100reminds me of 70s japanese rangefinders and there isnīt anything wrong w/that.
OK then... To me that self timer / vf switch between the two says it all. And in the hand? Come on... Film and digital all feel different in the hand.
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Old 11-20-2018   #114
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A smaller camera strapped on your shoulder calls less attention than a bigger camera. The lens is the biggest culprit.
I'm 6'2" tall and a gringo... In Santiago Chile. I doubt my camera is what sticks out.
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Old 11-20-2018   #115
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It is a heavy cropper. And this is it. Limited to its own and not so suatable for manual focusing lenses. And it has no rangefinder.
You can MF any lens on the Fuji using the ERF mode just fine. Not a RF but a different way of doing it.

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Old 11-20-2018   #116
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It seems i could use those leica lenses on a Fuji...can I? Main reason for a Leica is manual focus and zone focusing. I donīt care for autofocus. Fuji looks like a rangefinder but fuji lenses have no distance marks on the lens. Whatīs the point of an optical vf if you donīt zone focus?
A few Fuji lenses do have distance scales on them. You can also zone focus on any of the Fuji lenses easily, and change it without removing the camera from your eye. Turn on the distance scale in the OVF.

The point of an OVF isn't to zone focus or not. It is to see outside of the frame and to see everything all in focus. That happens on the XP1/XP2 no matter how you are focusing.

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Old 11-20-2018   #117
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A smaller camera strapped on your shoulder calls less attention than a bigger camera. The lens is the biggest culprit.
Lens, camera size is only something to be worry about been selected for robbery.

If you are talking about small. New black for this insuspisios aura it is self indulgence.
Winograd and Bresson didn't hide thier silver Leica. Winograd last 28 was Canadian huge 28 2,8.

It comes with practice and respect to people, I took 16-35 2.8 huge and heavy lens on silver EOS and walked into the crowd @16mm end.
Nobody cared, because was taking it openly and close.
At the end i switched to black R2M and tiny J-3. Because 16-35:stopped to communicate with plastic EOS bayonet

Look for Janku Nashimura videos. He is using silver 50 fast and not small prime and silver film M. He has one of the best candid pictures in modern world,
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Old 11-20-2018   #118
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The ccd love is denial most of the time. My D700 which has a great ccd sensor at 200 asa fails miserably above 1000 asa.
Digital images are supposed to be tweaked at photo shop or other programs. Get your cmos image and work those colors.
The D700 has a CMOS sensor in it.

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Old 11-20-2018   #119
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You can MF any lens on the Fuji using the ERF mode just fine. Not a RF but a different way of doing it.

Shawn
I hope in this mode they avoid viewing through f8-11 issues under low light.
Maybe it is not a problem with EVF/OVF.
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Old 11-20-2018   #120
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I'm 6'2" tall and a gringo... In Santiago Chile. I doubt my camera is what sticks out.
I feel better w/ a smaller camera. Smaller and lighter. Itīs how I feel, itīs how it works for me and i am a gringo in Mexico.
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