Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Leicas and other Leica Mount Cameras > Leica M9 / ME

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Leica M8 & M9 ... and Olympus Pen-F digital?
Old 12-28-2017   #1
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
Leica M8 & M9 ... and Olympus Pen-F digital?

I have a Leica M8 & M9, plus Olympus E-P2 and E-PL1 M 4/3 camera that I use quite often and that I like using.

Here is my question: is it a good move to add an Olympus M 4/3 camera based on its qualities and cost? How could you compare images from M8 or M9 with images with a 20MP M 4/3 camera?

The Pen-F digital can be bought used for $800 and new for $1000.

Thanks.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-28-2017   #2
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
I have few M 4/3 lenses. My only really good M 4/3 lens may be the Panasonic Lux 25mm/1.4, which is a superb lens. I like to use SLR lenses such as the Zeiss 50/1.4 on the M 4/3 cameras. Do I have to buy top lenses to get the most out of the Pen-F digital?
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-28-2017   #3
B-9
Devin Bro
 
B-9's Avatar
 
B-9 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,106
I use Nikkor lenses on my GH3 and only have two native m43 lenses the 14/2.5 and the 50/1.7 (Edit! 25/1.7)

I purchased the 24/2.8, 35/2.8, and 50/1.8 Nikkors from the money I got selling my 35/1.4 and then proceeded to cine mod those lenses (follow focus gears are not cheap!)

I use them with a Speedbooster/Focal Reducer and im getting great results shooting video.


I lust for the 12/1.4 and 42.5/1.2 LeicaLumix lenses but honestly even my "pro" GH3 has a horrible EVF. I really cant stand looking through the thing for more than a moment. So minimal stills shooting for me using that camera and my trio of adapter nikkors are plenty good enough with and without the booster to prove those luxury lenses unnecessary.

I too have been looking at the Pen F to solve this dilemma... but alas is this just another rabbits hole to dive down? I look forward to seeing what you come up with and following this thread for info.
__________________
Made in Michigan

RangefinderGuy @ Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-28-2017   #4
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,034
I have M-E and sold M8, because I have Canon 500D for crop. I have Lumix P&S with Leica for pocket and cold temperatures where iPhone craps out within minutes .
But just week ago I accidentally re-discovered Pen F and it is really astonishing for results in high ISO department.

Image comparison... I print from M-E, iPhone and Lumix, film scans. It looks different, but for the rest it is totally irrelevant. The rest cares for sharp and colorful images. It is achievable with the iPhone now.
If you check on big screen, you'll always see what M8/9 files are different. It is large sized CCD sensors. Not very common type. But Pen F could give you no shame ISO 10000 image for the same big screen.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-28-2017   #5
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
I like using smaller camera bodies with less weight. Maybe the Pen-F digital is "my camera"?
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-28-2017   #6
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,034
Panasonic GX8 is the same for 748$ new.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #7
maitani
Registered User
 
maitani's Avatar
 
maitani is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 737
raid, i'd have a look at a used Leica T(L), should be obtainable at around 800 used, 1,5 crop and very good 16mp sensor. i use mine regularly for almost 2 years now, and it's an ideal walkaround camera very capable in higher iso too compared to m8/9, superb built and a very good 'digital back' if you stretch to the TL2 you get 4k video and impressive hi-iso on top. personally the penF is overloaded with buttons imo, the very good uncluttered design of the T is and antidote to it. also should you want to ad the very good visoflex of leica mid-term it's superior to the m43 offerings.
you could keep using the great 25 summilux on your existing m43 cameras, and use the T to adapt manual focus glass.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #8
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
Thanks for the tips. I will check out the GX8 and the Leica T.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #9
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 932
I like the look and the concept of the Pen F...but never handled one in person..and don't know if I would want to spend 1K on it..
I would probably just get the Sony A7s instead..for the extremely high iso and good vid quality..and..its very small too..
Or maybe there is a demo CL kickin around at some dealer..that might be cool...for a couple of K..
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #10
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
I will look online for some good material on the Sony A7s.
Do you mean a new digital CL (demo)?

Thanks.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #11
robert blu
quiet photographer
 
robert blu's Avatar
 
robert blu is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Italy
Age: 70
Posts: 5,669
Hi Raid, a friend of mine bought the Pen F last spring (which I suggested him to buy!) and it's a beautiful small camera. I didn't buy one because I didn't like the idea to buy a new set of lenses but you already have. For what I see no problem with the quality of images for what concerns sharpness, high iso and similar. AF is very fast, my friend also shoots at jazz concert with high iso and difficult light and is very satisifed.

The only downside is if you desire/need a strong out of focus area in portraits which can anyway achieved using for instance the Only 45 an excellent small lens and can give in the right hands very good portraits.

Before going in a different direction a waited to see the Old 25/1,2 which is an excellent lens but in my opinion too large and heavy specially on a small camera like the Pen F, you know we cannot have everything in the same small package!

robert
__________________
Remember: today is the Day !
from Ruth Bernhard recipe for a long and happy life

my quiet photographer's blog

My RFF photos and my albums on RFF
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #12
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
Hi Robert. I have the 17/4 ("34mm") , 25/1.4 ("50mm") , and a zoom which may be 14-42.5 ("28mm-85mm") in M 4/3 mount. Telephoto lenses are easily obtained with adapters for SLR lenses.

The old Zeiss 50/1.4 has very nice looking OOF rendering for portraits with any M 4/3 camera. A high quality wide angle lens for M 4/3 would be needed maybe. It could be bought used from someone who leaves the M 4/3 system behind.

How about your Leica T?

Thanks!
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #13
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,034
Raid, IMHO and with my true respect to Robert. It is not downside at all.
It is big plus in family pictures. Fast lens to get enough light and also enough DOF to have family in focus. Not the single eyelash portrait with the rest in bokeh
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #14
robert blu
quiet photographer
 
robert blu's Avatar
 
robert blu is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Italy
Age: 70
Posts: 5,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Raid, IMHO and with my true respect to Robert. It is not downside at all.
It is big plus in family pictures. Fast lens to get enough light and also enough DOF to have family in focus. Not the single eyelash portrait with the rest in bokeh
Yes, you are correct it is not a downside. It is a downside only if you are looking for that "super-bokeh" which most of times is not absolutely necessary! I agree with you about the family pictures and knowing Raid style I think it will work!
robert
__________________
Remember: today is the Day !
from Ruth Bernhard recipe for a long and happy life

my quiet photographer's blog

My RFF photos and my albums on RFF
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #15
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 932
Quote:
I will look online for some good material on the Sony A7s.
Do you mean a new digital CL (demo)?
A7s is more expensive at 2K..but..that 100,000 iso..is a game changer..
The A7S2 is $400- more..but bigger and a better cam..400,000 iso.
The CL digital..looks to be a Leica Barnak style happy snap cam..people either luv it..or hate it..
Got voted the worse camera for 2017 though...by these guys..lol...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JljuqkmF6D8
But somehow..people are digging it too..
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #16
Gregm61
Registered User
 
Gregm61 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I have a Leica M8 & M9, plus Olympus E-P2 and E-PL1 M 4/3 camera that I use quite often and that I like using.

Here is my question: is it a good move to add an Olympus M 4/3 camera based on its qualities and cost? How could you compare images from M8 or M9 with images with a 20MP M 4/3 camera?

The Pen-F digital can be bought used for $800 and new for $1000.

Thanks.
I still have all my primes (I never sell lenses) from back when I primarily shot with a Pen E-P3, the Zuiko 12mm f2, Panasonic 25/1.4, Zuiko 45mm f1.8 and 75mm f1.8.

The Pen F with that set would be pretty darn powerful, but today my micro shooting is with an E-M1 Mark II and a set of Zuiko Pro zooms, which I use interchangeably with a Leica M262 outfit that includes a 75mm f2 APO Summicron, 21mm f3.4 Super Elmar and (as of today....geez, one seriously awesome lens) the 35mm f1.4 Summilux FLE.

There's no real comparison in terms of shooting style. If you are in the mid-set that you want to use a real rangefinder with a set of lens where it's super easy to just set it to infinity or zone focus and fire away and zero dealing with AF/Metering/exposure modes, no AF digital camera is a good substitute, be it a Pen or an OM-D body. Size is the only thing the Pen and Leica have in common. Two totally different user experiences.

On just an image to image basis, there's not all that much difference today between a (now) older M8 or M9 (I still use an M9-P on occasion) and the current generation 20MP micro four-thirds bodies. 20 MP micro four-thirds bodies are two generations newer than the 12MP cameras Olympus and Panasonic were selling back when the M9 was new, but for me, no micro four-thirds camera is a substitute if I wake up one day and want to use the M262.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #17
f16sunshine
Moderator
 
f16sunshine's Avatar
 
f16sunshine is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Age: 51
Posts: 6,258
What is the need in your kit?
Is there something lacking in the 3 cameras you have?
The M8/9 are not great for low light use. Maybe make a choice based on that need.
I'm not a fan of m4/3. In your position, buying a new body for one native lens seems like a trap.

Personally I would seek out an X100F or Sony RX1 or even the Leica Q if the budget can stretch. AF, low light beasts!
Leave your current Pen for doubling lens focal lengths during daylight use.

Focus on a camera that fills in where the M8/9 fall short.
The Pens is cute and the latest model would do much better than the M8/9 in low light but!... I have a personal bias against the m4/3 and love for digital fixed lens leaf shutter cameras
2c
__________________
Andy
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #18
Axel100
Registered User
 
Axel100's Avatar
 
Axel100 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany, north
Posts: 582
Yes...
and remember the size of the fourthirds bodies is nothing special when it comes to the need of a small camera.
Look at the real difference between a Pen F and a A7S.
__________________
its all Fuji my photos here
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #19
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,034
Sony is EVF SLR, Pen F is EVF RF. Sony is digital aternative for those who can't handle true RF. OP is using two real RF cameras. Sony has wierd selection of native lenses. And they aren't small. Especially Zeiss made primes. But OP has one lens for Pen F already, if I'm not mistaken and it is top of the line lens.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #20
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Sony is EVF SLR, Pen F is EVF RF.
The Sony is not an SLR, it is an EVF like the Pen F. And the Pen F is not an RF, just an EVF like the Sony.
One is styled to look like an SLR, the other is styled to look like a RF, but they both are EVF mirrorless cameras.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #21
Axel100
Registered User
 
Axel100's Avatar
 
Axel100 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany, north
Posts: 582
And the Sony can take the Leica M lenses.
__________________
its all Fuji my photos here
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #22
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
 
KoNickon is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Age: 60
Posts: 3,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
I'm not a fan of m4/3... I have a personal bias against the m4/3 and love for digital fixed lens leaf shutter cameras
2c
I'm curious about your dislike of m4/3 -- can you elaborate?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #23
peterm1
Registered User
 
peterm1's Avatar
 
peterm1 is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,309
Let me answer in an oblique fashion. I am inclined to use older cameras as they can be bought more cheaply - which means I can buy and try more of them. I have an M8, an Olympus EPl-2 and a Panasonic GF1. Oh and I should mention that I have an Olympus OMD EM 5 as well which is the camera I carry most often due to its SLR like handling. Obviously all of the first three mentioned cameras are quite old cameras in digital camera terms and that more modern cameras have more competent sensors. But I of course all three are still fine cameras. Of the three perhaps I have a slight preference for the rendering of the Panasonic though it is older than the Olympus. I say this because the images seem to require less work out of camera - Panasonic cameras I have had all seem to render particularly nicely somehow. I bought the EPl-2 on a whim because it was cheap though, at first, I perhaps regretted it a bit. But I found that this was solely because the in camera settings needed careful set up. Thee camera was inclined, for example, towards too much in camera noise reduction which softened images far too much, producing poor results. Once I mastered that it began turning in very nice images. Since you have an E-P2 perhaps you have experience of this already. Would I upgrade to a Pen F? Yes, if one came up at the right price provided its eye level finder is good as I always use that over the rear LCD. I also like the look of the camera and would enjoy using it as an alternative for shooting Leica lenses. I also suspect it would be a step up on any of the above cameras being newer. It certainly has a larger megapixel sensor though as you know this is not always a guide for anything very much. But of course I cannot speak directly about them as I do not yet know. And I it has 5 axis in-body image stabilization. The Panasonic does not and neither does my present Olympus. This counts for a lot in terms of image sharpness and the ability to confidently use non Olympus lenses.

BTW although Olympus cameras have a somewhat quirky menu system, one thing I do like about the Olympus cameras is their quick menu with lots of common adjustments and settings available on screen with the push of a single button. That works terrifically well once you set up the camera to operate this way (and I found even that took some effort when I first got the camera as it was not set up this way by default). But again I imagine you will know this already if you have an EP-2.

As to M43 cameras I never intended to go down this path at all originally. I wanted to buy Sony kit. But at the time Sony had very few native lenses. That is what got me started with M43. What has kept me shooting M43 over time is that their lenses tend to be extremely good and relatively inexpensive (the latter with a few exceptions). I now am stuck as I have several - 30mm f2.8 Sigma, 60mm f2.8 Sigma, 45mm f1.8 Olympus, 60mm f2.8 Olympus, 75mm f1.8 Olympus, 25mm f1.4 Panasonic from the original 4/3 system and AF adapter (and ditto for the Pana/Leica 14-50mm f 2.8 zoom form the older 4/3 system) and a MF Rokinon 12mm f2. All are hellishly sharp and render very nicely. The M43 issue of having a small sensor and larger crop factor in general does not wrry me much as I tend to longer lenses anyway. The only real issue I notice is slightly less competent low light performance than full frame or Sony NEX cameras. So I tend to carry my m43 cameras in situations where I otherwise would have used my Nikon DSLR. For example when traveling and weight is a limiting factor. I cannot speak highly enough about this system's image quality.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #24
ptpdprinter
Registered User
 
ptpdprinter is offline
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Sony is digital alternative for those who can't handle true RF.
Can't handle?
__________________
ambientlightcollection.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #25
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
The discussions here encourage me to postpone any purchase now. Until I figure out which digital camera I want to buy,
I may look for a clean 120 back for my SWC instead. I enjoy the photography and not the cameras. I expect back my M9 with the new sensor soon, and I can always bounce back to film photography.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #26
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 932
SWC...all the way! Wish I had one!
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #27
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
The SWC is currently my favorite pick for photography. I use a 120 and a 220 back. It keeps everything simple and basic. There is one lens only. Hardly any need to focus. See things as squares.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-29-2017   #28
f16sunshine
Moderator
 
f16sunshine's Avatar
 
f16sunshine is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Age: 51
Posts: 6,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
I'm curious about your dislike of m4/3 -- can you elaborate?

Mostly it's the focal length conversion.

I use my old lenses a lot and like them with flaws intact.
m4/3 crops away all but the sweet spot of any lens. I find this limiting.
__________________
Andy
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #29
robert blu
quiet photographer
 
robert blu's Avatar
 
robert blu is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Italy
Age: 70
Posts: 5,669
Hi Raid, my wife Simo modeling when I tested my friend's Pen F, iso 400 lens was 17/1,8 full open.
And do not forget that the camera is a beauty!

__________________
Remember: today is the Day !
from Ruth Bernhard recipe for a long and happy life

my quiet photographer's blog

My RFF photos and my albums on RFF
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #30
agfa100
Registered User
 
agfa100 is offline
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 254
Raid, I just picked up a used A7s to use with my M lenses (the prices are starting to finally come down) The body is small, so far I prefer the color balance it gives me but then my other camera is a RX-1. Plus the high iso performance is only a plus, and then you have the silent shutter setting. A close friend uses M4/3 and he came from M9's and his pictures look just as good, I really don't thing there is any bad camera out there these days. Enjoy what ever you pick it's all about having fun anyway.
wbill
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #31
Axel100
Registered User
 
Axel100's Avatar
 
Axel100 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany, north
Posts: 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
... I enjoy the photography and not the cameras ...
Can´t be wrong.
__________________
its all Fuji my photos here
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #32
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
I'm curious about your dislike of m4/3 -- can you elaborate?
In my case I can't stand the native aspect ratio.

Second, internal optical finders are unavailable. I can't use a m4/3 camera as I use to use an analog RF camera. I enjoy seeing what's outside the frame.

A less important issue for me is the system lenses have to be large unless you don't miss using wide apertures. Besides the obvious impact on DOF, in low light wide apertures deliver more total signal. In low light both the total signal level and the noise level determine perceived image quality. The problem isn't the noise level, its the signal level. This also affects shadow region reninding in normal light levels.

Larger sensor surface areas require larger lenses to produce a useful image circle. However looking at relative lens sizes for fast 4/3, APS, and 24 X 36 mm cameras indicates the the lens surface area is less important as sensor area increases.

At any rate, there is no free lunch. A system's maximum S/N depends on both the lens area and sensor area. Overall, S/N increases as the square root of the sensor area increases. So the only way to match the low-light performance of larger sensors is to increase lens surface area (i.e. size, weight and cost).

Here's some data comparing low light performance for different sensor areas. These results show the newest Olympus sensors do very well.

Her's a comparison of analog dynamic range vs sensor area. This assumes the photo-site sensitivities are identical.
__________________
Basically, I mean, ah—well, let’s say that for me anyway when a photograph is interesting, it’s interesting because of the kind of photographic problem it states—which has to do with the . . . contest between content and form.
Garry Winogrand
williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #33
nukecoke
⚛Yashica
 
nukecoke's Avatar
 
nukecoke is offline
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Sweden/China
Posts: 1,010
Buy a M4/3 camera made after 2014 that HANDLES well and FEELS good in hand, then you are good to go. The specs are good enough.
__________________
tumblr

flickr(abandoned)

About Film Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #34
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert blu View Post
Hi Raid, my wife Simo modeling when I tested my friend's Pen F, iso 400 lens was 17/1,8 full open.
And do not forget that the camera is a beauty!

Thank you, Robert! Thanks to Simo for modeling for you!
Yes, the Pen-F is beautiful indeed. It may be the main reason why I was attracted to buying it (maybe).

The posted image looks good.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #35
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
In my case I can't stand the native aspect ratio.

Second, internal optical finders are unavailable. I can't use a m4/3 camera as I use to use an analog RF camera. I enjoy seeing what's outside the frame.

A less important issue for me is the system lenses have to be large unless you don't miss using wide apertures. Besides the obvious impact on DOF, in low light wide apertures deliver more total signal. In low light both the total signal level and the noise level determine perceived image quality. The problem isn't the noise level, its the signal level. This also affects shadow region reninding in normal light levels.

Larger sensor surface areas require larger lenses to produce a useful image circle. However looking at relative lens sizes for fast 4/3, APS, and 24 X 36 mm cameras indicates the the lens surface area is less important as sensor area increases.

At any rate, there is no free lunch. A system's maximum S/N depends on both the lens area and sensor area. Overall, S/N increases as the square root of the sensor area increases. So the only way to match the low-light performance of larger sensors is to increase lens surface area (i.e. size, weight and cost).

Here's some data comparing low light performance for different sensor areas. These results show the newest Olympus sensors do very well.

Her's a comparison of analog dynamic range vs sensor area. This assumes the photo-site sensitivities are identical.
In my case, I would ask if your evaluations of M 4/3 photography would be different if you almost only shoot in sunny situations where no high ISO is needed. I usually take photos at 200-400 ISO.

Else, I get your points.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #36
Mackinaw
Think Different
 
Mackinaw is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: One hour south of the Mackinaw Bridge
Posts: 3,490
I bought an Olympus Pen when they first came out. Nice camera, I liked it, but decided I needed something better in the M 4/3 format so upgraded to an Olympus OM-D (EM-5). I still have that camera and use it frequently, liking the small size and weight and auto-focus. Main downside is its poor performance at high ISO’s (though I imagine the latest generation OM-D cameras are better).

I also have a Leica M240, which is my go-to digital camera. It is much bigger and heavier that the Olympus, but the full-size sensor makes it worthwhile, image quality is better than the OM-D. Plus I like the 35mm format-like depth of field of the Leica.

For me, one camera compliments the other. They both have a place in my photo arsenal.

Jim B.
__________________
My fancy-schmancy gallery:
http://snowcountryphotography.com

My RFF Gallery:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...user=1453&sl=m
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #37
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
Thank you for your assessment, Jim. I am currently using a loaner M240, and I like it, but it is big and heavy when compared with the M8 or M9. This is at least what I feel. Maybe I am wrong. The M cameras give me more flexibility than my M 4/3 cameras do. I will check out online some material on OM-D cameras.

Here is what B&H has on a OM-D & zoom for $549:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...=Y&sku=1179112

The Pen-D looks more beautiful though I am not being practical!
The GX8 has 16MP, and it is inexpensive.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #38
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 932
Don't forget..M 4/3 you can use all those cool tiny lil cine lenses..sometimes for hardly anything..and a real different look...
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #39
Sonny Sichtstein
Mike in Sacramento
 
Sonny Sichtstein's Avatar
 
Sonny Sichtstein is offline
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Age: 60
Posts: 113
I just found this thread this morning. I've actually got my M8, M9 and a few other things listed in the classifieds now, and am ordering a Pen F and 1.8/17mm as soon as B&H comes back online. I love how Leicas handle - all film cameras, really - but I think I'm getting to the age at which autofocus and image stabilization are useful.

I like the UI (UX?) of the Pen. For instance with the 1.8/17mm you can just pull the focus ring back on the lens to engage manual focus. I had a Sony A7 and could never get comfortable with the interface.

I'll always keep at least one Leica, but I think the Pen will be a great everyday shooter.

(Also - the Pen and select lenses are on sale right now. $200 off the body, $150 off lenses.)

Mike
__________________
Olympus Pen F | Olympus 9mm f8 Fisheye | M.Zuiko 17mm f1.8 | M.Zuiko 30mm f3.5 Macro | M.Zuiko 45mm f1.8
M9 | IIIc | Zeiss Biogon T* 35mm f2 | Summitar 50mm f2 | Elmar 50mm f3.5
Rolleiflex 3.5 MX-EVS | Calumet C400 4x5
Pacific Image PrimeFilm XE scanner | Epson V600 scanner | Epson P600 printer
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2017   #40
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
Don't forget..M 4/3 you can use all those cool tiny lil cine lenses..sometimes for hardly anything..and a real different look...
I agree, Emile. I would be interested in the vintage and hard to find lenses.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 13:17.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.