Old 11-20-2015   #81
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Who are you talking to?

The Nex is a nice little APS-C camera with the wrong sensor configuration, and numerous other issues I've not heard mentioned.

Have you ever used one?

Last time I looked I had put about 6000 shots on mine - the rubber has already fallen off. Now where is my Superglue?...
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Old 11-20-2015   #82
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Sure - a MUCH more heavy body - the M262 weighs 15 grams more than the M9!
I might be wrong but according to what I could find on the net:
- M 262: 680g (bat included)
- M9: 585g (bat inlcuded)
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Old 11-20-2015   #83
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I might be wrong but according to what I could find on the net:
- M 262: 680g (bat included)
- M9: 585g (bat inlcuded)
From the Technical Data sheet/PDF for the Leica M (TYP 262)

Weight (with battery) Approx. 600 g (19.3 oz).
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Old 11-20-2015   #84
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There is huge opportunity for "Interchangeable Q" which Leica seems unmotivated to fill
Come on man, they haven't even filled all of the Q orders yet and you expected them to build this immediately?
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Old 11-20-2015   #85
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I think this is a great direction for Leica, personally. I know a lot of people here don't use video (me included) and want a digital M that acts like their film M (again, me included). What I don't get is why no live view on the back screen in the very least. Seems like a perfect way to check lens calibration. If there is no live view what's the point of the giant screen on the back?
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Old 11-20-2015   #86
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I think this is a great direction for Leica, personally. I know a lot of people here don't use video (me included) and want a digital M that acts like their film M (again, me included).
I do not know if I'll buy this camera, but for sure I find it very interesting because using it will be very similar to the way I use my M7, yes I think it's the digital most similar to the analog Leicas...
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Old 11-20-2015   #87
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If there is no live view what's the point of the giant screen on the back?
Image review and menus?
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Old 11-20-2015   #88
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Think of the 262 vs the 260 as (kind of) the digital equivalents of the M2 and M3.
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Old 11-20-2015   #89
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I might be wrong but according to what I could find on the net:
- M 262: 680g (bat included)
- M9: 585g (bat inlcuded)
680 is the M240.
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Old 11-20-2015   #90
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I wonder how many Minolta AL rangefinder cameras I can buy with five grand. And the AL uses film which will last 200 years.
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Old 11-20-2015   #91
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I think this is a great direction for Leica, personally. I know a lot of people here don't use video (me included) and want a digital M that acts like their film M (again, me included).
Because digital Leica don't have

- the same shape and layout
- same major control layout
- same viewfinder
- same focusing
- same bottom loading?

I guess you could glue on a cosmetic advance lever or have it hang up every 36 frames. Well, the early firmware for the M typ 240 had that second part nailed.

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Old 11-20-2015   #92
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Originally Posted by Dante_Stella View Post
...

I guess you could glue on a cosmetic advance lever or have it hang up every 36 frames. Well, the early firmware for the M typ 240 had that second part nailed.

Dante
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And as for the advance lever, any of my digital Leicas has been fitted with a thumbs up
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Old 11-20-2015   #93
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I wonder how many Minolta AL rangefinder cameras I can buy with five grand. And the AL uses film which will last 200 years.
Ok, so go make a Minolta AL thread.
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Old 11-20-2015   #94
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Come on man, they haven't even filled all of the Q orders yet and you expected them to build this immediately?
YES!!!!

Me want cereal now!!!!
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Old 11-21-2015   #95
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Is the sensor the same as the M240 or the Q sensor? On the Leica blog it says:
"The sensor is an evolution of the Leica M sensor"
http://blog.leica-camera.com/photogr...ini-in-vienna/
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Old 11-21-2015   #96
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Think M240 sensor. Not that it matters, as far as image quality in the final print goes we entered the phase of diminishing returns a while ago.
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Old 11-21-2015   #97
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More silent shutter, higher ISO, higher resolution, higher dynamic range,possibly more reliable, that sounds like an upgrade from the M9/ME to me.
More silent than what? the M-P is already fairly quiet.
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Old 11-21-2015   #98
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More silent than the M240/M-P, at least that is the claim. And certainly far more silent than the M9/ME.
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Old 11-21-2015   #99
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Old 11-21-2015   #100
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Should I look for full frame digital M today the M262 is the answer : CMOS is more reliable than CCD inside M9, more silent shutter as it claims ( hope it also means lesser vibration at lower speed as I find the lowest I can do with M9 is 1/30 second ), larger battery with more juice in it, larger and higher resolution of LCD in the back .... live-view is one of the benefit of CMOS moreover for street photography I sometimes do off-finder

Should Leica can make M262 more reliable white balance for indoor as well more predictable exposure than M9, then I would be happy and start saving money for it
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Old 11-21-2015   #101
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I think this is a very interesting camera - an almost exact digital analogue (?) of the M7 that I have used almost exclusively for the last year, and which is by far my favourite film camera. Hopefully the design is close enough to the later iterations of the M240 that it will reliable.

I do not understand why live view is not supported - it is almost certainly just disabled in software, and would be useful even without a dedicated button. Live view makes unusual angles possible and makes wide angle and telephoto lenses easier to use. This is a camera that could attract new (younger, non film) users, and many will prefer live view over the external viewfinder kludge. Does Leica not want to sell them more lenses?
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Old 11-22-2015   #102
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Live view is linked to video. It is a complaint I cannot understand. People were clamoring for a "basic" model without "non-essential feature bloat", they get it and now they want more "features"... There is no way Leica can win, it seems.
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Old 11-22-2015   #103
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They would have done a nice job by leaving the LCD screen out - it would have made a smaller camera too...
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Old 11-22-2015   #104
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Live view is linked to video. It is a complaint I cannot understand. People were clamoring for a "basic" model without "non-essential feature bloat", they get it and now they want more "features"... There is no way Leica can win, it seems.
I think, that the two groups of people are not the same people...

Leica could win, if they would implement the "non-pure RF" features like video and live view in a manner, that does not get in the way with basic functionality.

Example: the live view button often activates LV when I slide the camera into my waist holster. This is total crap, because after two or three hours of walking around, the battery is empty, whereas it normally is good for a whole day. Additionally, the sensor gets hot and more thermal noise is added to the pictures, that I also can not make as quick as I'm used to, because LV needs to reset the sensor, before I get the shot.

Basically, all this is only caused by activating LV, when I don't want it. So it is crap. However, LV is useful in some situations so I want it. But implemented in an intelligent way. Ergonomics seems not to be a main competence at Leica anymore.

Video-button is also not too thoughtfully placed and also not programmable to a different function, that the user may desire. Also not very thoughtful.

How about the button on the front of the camera, that is very hard to press? There are solutions where people glued something onto it, so one can make it work. But why don't implement it right in the first way...?

Crippling features, just because you don' t get them right seems not to be a good solution to me.

There is currently one point I really like about the new model: it is 100g lighter. Compared to the heavy brick I own, each saved gram is a win.
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Old 11-22-2015   #105
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They would have done a nice job by leaving the LCD screen out - it would have made a smaller camera too...
Ron you are talking about my dream camera, all manual digital RF a la M60, no distractions, pity it costs the equivalent of small car.
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Old 11-22-2015   #106
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This seems to be a well-priced body, certainly in comparison to the M240/M246, and retains (at least to me) all the essential features (though I personally would like the frame selector lever).

I have the M246 (Monochrom), and though I don't use the LiveView that often, it does come in handy when I'm using the Noctilux lens (I sometimes use it with the VF-2 viewfinder). Similarly, I haven't used the video function all that much, but it is kind of a fun thing to have on vacation and it does produce excellent results (both picture and sound), though my personal abilities with video might need a bit of help . I've never found the video feature to 'get in the way' of the camera's basic functionality -- you can actually disable the video function in the 'set' menu so that you don't accidentally turn it on (not that it's ever happened to me anyway). I did check the menu/settings to see if you can disable the LiveView function, but it doesn't appear that you can -- maybe activate auto power-off, or turn the camera off altogether in a waist holster? I can't really understand the seeming distaste for the video function in the 240/246-- if you disable it you're only left with a small, discreet, non-functioning silver button. Perhaps it's the perception that you're paying extra for something that you'll likely never use? I can appreciate that sentiment, and it was a consideration prior to my having purchased the 246. However, I could probably say that about my Nikon D4 or Fuji X100T too -- they both have features that I've never used and likely never will, but I don't really think about having 'paid extra' for those items.

I won't be buying this new model as it's not something that would add anything to what I already have or need. Maybe what Leica should really do is to implement an 'a la carte' program that enables buyers to add just the features they want, and eliminate the features they don't want. I know that would be quite impossible, but it seems that's what some people might be after -- in addition to a smaller body of course!
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Old 11-22-2015   #107
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I do not understand why live view is not supported - it is almost certainly just disabled in software, and would be useful even without a dedicated button.
It is just price differentiation. There are surely people who prefer it this way, but this still reeks of pure price differentiation. And can't say I mind that too much. I am more likely to buy the 262 than the 240 iteration, although I would like to have the full feature set. Cheaper is nice, and the price difference buys a camera with stronger video features.
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Old 11-22-2015   #108
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So perhaps an experienced Leica user can answer this for me. In live view mode, the shutter has to open and stay open in order for the sensor to get light, then when the shot is made, it closes, opens, closes and reopens to get back into live view mode again. But in non-live view shooting, does the shutter revert back to the simpler open-close action, like a film camera shutter?

The reason I ask is because live view mode just about doubles the wear on the shutter, while exposing the sensor to the possibility of more dust.

And it would be great to have a digital Leica sans LCD screen, thinner body and better battery life.

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Old 11-22-2015   #109
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But in non-live view shooting, does the shutter revert back to the simpler open-close action, like a film camera shutter?


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Old 11-22-2015   #110
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I did check the menu/settings to see if you can disable the LiveView function, but it doesn't appear that you can -- maybe activate auto power-off, or turn the camera off altogether in a waist holster?
Yes, that would be a solution, if the camera would be "instant-on", but it is not. Depending on the used SD-card and how many images are already on the card, it can take up to about 10 seconds, that you can press the button. - And before someone comes up with solutions how to format SD cards, use smaller cards and so on: I know the tricks, but my Olympus E-M1 takes exactly the same cards (I rotate cards between cameras) and is on in less than a second. So the problem is a crappy implementation of the SD card protocol on Leica-side, not anywhere else.

At least for my style of street shooting, where I'm walking around and sometimes let the camera in the holster for half an hour or longer but then spot something and want the shot in a fraction of a second, this does not work. The battery is good for a whole day of walking around and always get a quick shot, but LV really gets in the way with this.

Just this week I came back from a 3 weeks trip in Japan with lots of street shooting and sometimes I really hated Leica for this. I thought about a radical hardware solution of the problem since Leica is not able to or willing to solve it in software, so I will probably do this in the next few weeks.
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Old 11-22-2015   #111
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If the shutter is closed during both focus and exposure acquisition, is it possible for the sensor to operate in a 'low current' stand-by mode? This would allow a 'walk around mode' with instant-on that would presumably let the battery last 'forever' while reducing sensor temperature and noise.
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Old 11-22-2015   #112
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Huh? If LV isn't on, the sensor isn't on. What you are describing is how every digital Leica operates when not in LV mode. Unless I'm misunderstanding the big "LV" button on the 240. This new camera has no LV.
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Old 11-22-2015   #113
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People who want liveview could still get the M 240. I don't see what the issue is. You want more features, pay more. Seems reasonable to me. This model is interesting enough to finally make me upgrade from my M8. Even if it's just to an M9, whose second hand price may fall a little bit more as a result. I was going to go for a Q at the end of the year but now I think I will save up for this instead.
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Old 11-22-2015   #114
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People who want liveview could still get the M 240. I don't see what the issue is. You want more features, pay more. Seems reasonable to me. This model is interesting enough to finally make me upgrade from my M8. Even if it's just to an M9, whose second hand price may fall a little bit more as a result. I was going to go for a Q at the end of the year but now I think I will save up for this instead.
True, want live view just spend another $2000 for it.... Wait .,. what ?


Ok sure, you get a couple other features for that additional 2 grand.

Really though. Leaving out live view at this point is just plain silly.
If you're primarily a rf user, want to carry just one camera, and traveling.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to put a 70-210 and adapter in your bag for the half dozen frames you might take with it?
Live view sure makes that a better experience.
I was once a live view skeptic but it sure is useful!
Not including live view now requires another camera or limits the capability of using that long lens to infinity accuracy only.
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Old 11-22-2015   #115
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Since I now have M-P240 and quite happy with live view/evf when I take pictures in the night time, I am not interested in this 262. I will think hard if Leica can make their next digital M slimmer without scarify the functionality too much.

However, I think 262 may appeal to the new owner and the ones who currently own M8 or M9. It may sell well.
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Old 11-22-2015   #116
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I think this is a very interesting camera - an almost exact digital analogue (?) of the M7 that I have used almost exclusively for the last year, and which is by far my favourite film camera. Hopefully the design is close enough to the later iterations of the M240 that it will reliable.

I do not understand why live view is not supported - it is almost certainly just disabled in software, and would be useful even without a dedicated button. Live view makes unusual angles possible and makes wide angle and telephoto lenses easier to use. This is a camera that could attract new (younger, non film) users, and many will prefer live view over the external viewfinder kludge. Does Leica not want to sell them more lenses?
Buy the M240 or M-P for Liveview.
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Old 11-22-2015   #117
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They would have done a nice job by leaving the LCD screen out - it would have made a smaller camera too...
Buy the M60.
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Old 11-23-2015   #118
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Should Leica can make M262 more reliable white balance for indoor as well more predictable exposure than M9, then I would be happy and start saving money for it
+1. The WB is something I hope the 262 has improved... then this might just be my next M.
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Old 11-24-2015   #119
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WB, so easily solved by using the grey card setting...
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Old 11-24-2015   #120
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I'm sure live view needs some hardware - at least a shutter that can stay open and then close before taking a picture, but also some electronics that allows continious read-out of the sensor and sending it to the screen. Another thing that was probably on the mind of Leica was if you add live view, why not add video? It was one of the complaints people had with the Nikon Df: it has LV, why not video? I think they wanted to keep this as simple as possible without going all the way like with the M Edition 60.

If you need LV, this isn't the camera for you. The alternative is the M (typ 240) and it all depends if you want to spend that kind of money extra for live view.....
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