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M7+ 35 + 75 combo. Need your advise
Old 08-12-2006   #1
Alex Krasotkin
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M7+ 35 + 75 combo. Need your advise

Guys,

I am planning to buy M7 and decided to go with 35 and 75 combo, therefore need to choose between:

35/2 ASPH and 35/1.4 ASPH

and

75/2 and 75/1.4 ASPH.
Also, when shooting with 75, will it be just one 75 frameline in the viewfinder, or dual frame 50/75?

What are your pros and cons for both combos?

P.S. I used to shoot with Hexar AF 35/2 and like its old-fashioned lens charachter, so look for nice bokeh and lens signature with futiure Leica lenses.

Appreciate your advises.

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Alexander
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Old 08-13-2006   #2
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Hi Alex
Although I have not posted too many times, I have been following this site with great interest. As you may be aware there are a number of threads re: 35/2 ASPH v 35/1.4 ASPH! Like many say - Horses for courses!

Although I own an M7, I tend to pair an MP with 35/1.4 ASPH and 75/2; this being my most used RF combo. I do not have extensive experience of the 35/2 but I have found the extra speed of the 35/1.4 more suited to giving me the limited DOF I now favour. Since bokeh is to a large extent subjective, I cannot comment on an "old fashioned character".

Insofar as the 75's are concerned, I did spend quite some time deliberating between the two and contrary to what I said above, the very limited DOF of the 75/1.4 still did not sway it for me! I found it a heavy lens, but with absolutely beautiful, IMHO, out of focus areas. The intrusion into the viewfinder was also sometimes distracting.

The 75/2 is the "best" lens, I own: and I have quite a number: Leica and others, RF, SLR and MF. I cannot praise it highly enough.

As for framelines, I use the standard .72 finder and the 50/75 work fine.

I hope the above helps. Kind regards

Ken
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Old 08-13-2006   #3
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Good choice Alex, and as I 'm sure everyone will say you can't really go wrong with any combo. But at the end of the day you do have to make a choice and a rather expensive one at that, so here's what I think:

Of the four permutations available to you, I would go for the 'Lux 35 (firmly) and 'Cron 75 (tentatively).

I believe it is essential that you have at least one lens that provides the speed for available light situations and it makes good sense that that lens is your normal (which in your case will be the 35mm focal length). So that even if the 'Cron 35 were slightly better (and that's a very big 'if') you 'd still have ample reason to choose the 'lux 35. As a user of the 'lux 35 Asph. I can tell you, the lens will not let do you down. It draws with authority from edge to edge and, contrary to what you will often hear, the bokeh is beautiful with a quasi-liquid quality. The lens does tend to blow highlights a little (something I 've never experienced with lenses of the previous generation) but I think you can tame that with experience.

I have no real experience with the two other lenses (or the 75mm focal length n general) but every single picture I 've seen from either of the two looks magical. I could again wield the 'available light argument' in favour of the 'lux 75 if it were not for the fact that a few portraits I have seen from the 'Cron 75 just nail the Leica look for my taste - although it will be fair to admit that it may had more to do with the ability of the photographer rather than the lens. Anyway, If I were to choose between the two, I would go first for the Cron., but I 'm sure you 'll get more advice from actual users of the lenses, who can comment on every aspect of their performance.

Best of luck with your quest,
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Old 08-13-2006   #4
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The Summilux 75 is a very heavy piece of kit to haul around IMO...
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Old 08-13-2006   #5
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Old 08-13-2006   #6
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On the 35 question.

Asph-cron : slightly higher contrast, half the size and price 39mm

Asph-lux: slightly lower contrast, larger in size and price 46mm

Both are stellar lenses, sharp across their range, so in that sense, you can't make a mistake :-)
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Old 08-13-2006   #7
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The two lenses that I don't have that are on my wish list "if money was not an issue" are the 35 lux and 75 cron.
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Old 08-13-2006   #8
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The 35/75 seems an ideal combo, but you really need something in the middle. 35-75mm is a big spread in focal lengths.

I suggest the 35lux as your first and only lens for at least 6 months. Get used to one lens only with the M7. Then go for your second lens. You cannot go wrong with the 75cron.

If you really need a 'longer focal length from the start, get the current 50 collapsible. It is a vastly underrated lens. It is inexpensive and very compact.

There is a BIG difference between 35/50/and 75mm focal lengths. So start slow and learn the 35lux, it is unique and stellar in performance.
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Old 08-13-2006   #9
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Old 08-13-2006   #10
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I have both 75 'lux and 35 'lux asph. They are both wonderful. 75 'cron is nice I'm sure, but any improvement in contrast/sharpness would only be noticeable in large prints. The 75 'lux is heavy but delivers high performance as needed. The lens sticking into the VF is manageable and you'll be surprised how fast you get used to it. I picked one up a Canadian made model and it actually seems slightly smaller then the German made....but maybe not. The 35 'lux asph is stellar. It is quite sharp at smaller apertures and provides the extra stop when critical. I've not tried any Summicrons and don't really intend to as these are the Leica lenses I've always wanted to shoot with. I suppose a 50 might come in handy, but for some reason, I'm attracted to the Elmar. Do yourself a favor and go with the lux's if you do any serious available light shooting.
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Old 08-13-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Graham
There is a BIG difference between 35/50/and 75mm focal lengths. So start slow and learn the 35lux, it is unique and stellar in performance.
I'm going to stick my nose in here and argue this is the best approach. I'd strongly advise that you add a 50 to your mix; probably a 50/2 Summicron, but irregardless, you need to cover that middle distance better. There are real reasons that the "normal" lens continues to survive in a world where "everyone knows" that 35 is the new normal... Slow down (in all the senses of that phrase) and shoot more carefully. You might just be surprised at what you can catch with what you already have in hand.

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Old 08-13-2006   #12
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Alkis has just about nailed it: a fast 35 as "normal" and either of the 75s. I'll say, though, that depending on the sort of work you will do, you might not need the extra stop of the 75/1.4, specially when seen against greater bulk and weight and very little depth of field at full aperture. I agree also with those who speak of the benefits of a 50. You will have, in effect, three normal lenses. My choice for the 50 would be the Elmar, for the reason that it is optically fine yet so small.
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Old 08-13-2006   #13
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Hello Alex,

I have been a big fan of your site for awhile. I hope that I can help with this problem.
I am currently using an M7 with the 35mm f/1.4 ASPH and the 75mm Summicron as my main kit. I also own the 75mm Summilux. From looking at your pictures, I think you might like the character of the 75mm summilux better. Ona bolee romantichno. It has an older character to it than the 75mm summicron, though both are absolutely superb lenses. If you don't feel like carrying the summilux ,the 75mm summicron is one of the very best lenses I have ever used, but it has a slightly more modern character. The 75mm summilux "glows" when wide open. The edges get slightly fuzzy and highlights have soft edges. This can be a lovely effect. It is gone by f/2.5. The 75mm summicron looks basically the same at every single f stop. f/2 is nearly as good as f/4, which is as good as f/5.6 and so on...

I have not talked about the 35mm lens because there is really no other choice than the 35mm f/1.4 ASPH. It is the best 35mm lens on the planet. There is essentially nothing wrong with it. Here is a shot with it at f/1.4:


Here is another stopped down to f/4

And a color one:



The 75's are a more difficult decision. The Summicron has a nearly perfect image character (from the technical point of view) at every aperture, it is fairly light and compact, and it is easy to use. The 75mm summilux is basically identical to the summicron from f/4 to f/16, only slightly behind it. But at f/2 to f/1.4 it has gorgeous aberrations. But the lens is large and heavy and has a long focusing throw. I don't really know which one I prefer, probably the summilux, but the one I am using now is the summicron. Perhaps that will tell you something...
Here are some shots. Please keep in mind that I have better shots from the summilux because I have had it longer...

75mm summilux:



(The fuzzyness in that photo is not something that the 75 summicron will do. That was taken at f/1.4)



And now some from the 75mm summicron...





Ok, sorry to completely saturate the thread with images. I just always tell more from images than words, even if they are only web images. They can usually a good feel for the macroscopic properties of the lenses.

Last edited by StuartR : 08-13-2006 at 23:16.
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Old 08-14-2006   #14
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Old 08-14-2006   #15
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The 'Cron 75 images are breathtaking...

Thanks for sharing these photos Stuart.
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Last edited by telenous : 08-14-2006 at 03:47.
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Old 08-14-2006   #16
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Alex I too am an admirer of your site. The only lens that I have experience with of interest to you is the 35/1.4 ASPH. I would second (or third) Stuart's comment that it is truly a wonderful lens. Fantastic wide-open with virtually no flare. I don't like tabs on lenses at all but for this lens; anything. Get it.
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Old 08-14-2006   #17
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I would say 35/2 and 75/2 from a size perspective. Use the money you save and get a ZI 15/2.8!

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Old 08-14-2006   #18
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Huh? The 15/2.8 costs more than either of these lenses...almost more than the two put together...
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Old 08-14-2006   #19
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If you bought the 2.0 of each vs the 1.4?

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Old 08-14-2006   #20
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I have both the 35 'lux ASPH and the 75 'lux. I love the 35 ‘lux, but if I did it over again I might consider the 75 'cron over the 75 'lux. I find the 75 'lux a bit unwieldy and it often gets left behind for that reason. For me, my 50 'lux is the more essential lens.

Just check out your web site, Alex. Very nice stuff there.
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I Use the 35 Summicron ASPH and the 75 Summilux
Old 08-14-2006   #21
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I Use the 35 Summicron ASPH and the 75 Summilux

Although were 35 / 75 my main "kit", I might have gone with the 35 Summilux ASPH. Don't know about the 75 Cron ASPH vs 'lux - I really like the "lux, and have used it before the 'cron ASPH was introduced. All of you that think that the 75 'lux is toooo big must never have shot with any SLR lenses? No offense, but the 75 'lux is great; maybe not quite as good as the 'cron F2 - F2.8, but it is close - and it DOES have F1.4. I have never found it TOO big, nor TOO heavy; and it DOES yield really fine results I use the 90 ASPH lens for my slightly longer sharp as **** wide open lens. This gives me 2 excellent portrait lenses with different characteristics. Alex, you cannot really go wrong with any combination. I find myself carrying 21 ASPH, 28 ASPH, 50 'cron, and 90 ASPH most of the time these days; AND wanting F1.4 in the new 50 ASPH. Eventually, I will probably add the 50 1.4 ASPH and the 75 'cron ASPH - the characteristics are different enough to warrant their purchase, but then again, I want all of the Leica lenses! My recommendation is to borrow / lease each lens before purchase. It is the ONLY way to learn the characteristics of each lens.

Last edited by back alley : 08-14-2006 at 20:15.
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Old 08-14-2006   #22
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Bill, even if you pay full retail for both summilux lenses, the difference between them and the 2 summicrons is 2000 dollars. The Zeiss 15mm costs 3795...almost double the difference. And that is excluding the fact that the 75mm Summilux is cheaper used than the 75 summicron because it is an older lens and there are many people who sell it because it is too big. You can find it easily in great condition for anywhere from 1300-1800 dollars. The 75mm summicrons sell for 2000 or so used.
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I Use the 35 Summicron and the 75 'lux
Old 08-14-2006   #23
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I Use the 35 Summicron and the 75 'lux

But you cannot go wrong with either 'cron or 'lux lens; it just depends upon your needs and/or budget. I use the 35 ' cron ASPH because I defer to the 50 'cron or 28 'cron ASPH more than the 35 focal length. I typically carry 21 ASPH, 28 ASPH, 50 'cron, and 90 'cron ASPH most of all these days, although I do utilize both the 35 and 75 focal lengths. I will eventually purchase the 50 Summilux ASPH as well as the 75 'cron ASPH lenses - the characteristics are different enough to warrant their purchase! The shooters that wring their hands over the weight/size of the 75 'lux are pussies; perhaps they have never used SLR lenses before? The 75 'lux is one magnificent lens - perhaps not as good as the 'cron ASPH from F2 - F2.8 - but it DOES have F1.4! Lease / borrow these lenses first - all of them are very good lenses! Your needs are your needs. Good luck!

Last edited by vol72 : 08-14-2006 at 19:33.
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Old 08-14-2006   #24
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I love the 35 Summilux ASPH and the 75 Apo Summicron ASPH.

I had a 35mm Summicron but sold it after getting the Summilux, which I thought was sharper and believe is more useful in low light. Here are some 35mm/1.4 examples:
Heron's First Birthday
Phoebe Tasting the Cake
Snowbanks, Cambridge, MA
Snow in Harvard Yard
Alley at Night, South End, Boston, MA
Stonewall, Darrah's Farm, Twightlight
A very versatile lens.

The 75mm Summicron focuses closer than it's big brother Summilux (a lens I've not used and about which I have no opinion).
Close up Examples:
Water Lilies, The Tarn, Acadia NP
Milk Drink, Chinatown, Boston, MA

I rarely leave home without it, but I prefer to carry the 75mm with a 28mm Summicron or 25mm Biogon and the 21mm Biogon. I take the 35mm along if I know I'll need it's field of view or its f/1.4
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Old 08-15-2006   #25
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SDK,
Love the "snowbanks" shot. Great detail and a very "retro" feel to it.
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Old 08-15-2006   #26
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Thanks, I thought it turned out rather well for a handheld shot. It would not have been as good at f/2, because the towed car and falling snow would have blurred more from motion.
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Old 08-15-2006   #27
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Ah, I wondered about that towed car. Since the tow truck is out of frame, at first I thought the car was doing what we used to call "popping a wheelie!" ;-)
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Old 08-21-2006   #28
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I believe you need to ask yourself how will you be using the equipment? Do you shoot laregely color or B/W? Do you shoot most outdoors or indoors? Do anticipate much in the way of travel? Answers to these and similar questions will point you in the correct direction.

What others say may be interesting, but their opinions are partially formed by their individual needs and expectations, which may or may not be applicable to you.

After having the summicron for many years, I opted for the Summilux because I shoot many low light situations. The extra stop I find invaluable. But if you don't need the extra speed, why get the Summilux?

As far as the 75mm focal length, I suspect that if you going to travel the Summilux is too heavy. I disagree with those folks who suggest that you may need something between the 35 and 75. The 35/75, or even the 35/90, is a relatively small system that capture just about anything. As a parenthetical note, despite have two Ms and 4 of Leica's current lenses in 4 focal lengths, I find myself more and more just taking one camera and one lens, even when I travel. I haven't missed many shots.

I do find Leica's current generation geared more toward color. The B/W can look very clinical, almost too sharp, and takes some getting used to.
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I picked mine up for
Old 08-22-2006   #29
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I picked mine up for

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartR
Bill, even if you pay full retail for both summilux lenses, the difference between them and the 2 summicrons is 2000 dollars. The Zeiss 15mm costs 3795...almost double the difference. And that is excluding the fact that the 75mm Summilux is cheaper used than the 75 summicron because it is an older lens and there are many people who sell it because it is too big. You can find it easily in great condition for anywhere from 1300-1800 dollars. The 75mm summicrons sell for 2000 or so used.
$980 in very nice shape...(candian, 2nd version w/ built in hood which I love, no front cap). I find it a little tough to focus in low light. Net really sure why at this point. I'm thinking the VF upgrade in my .85 TTL may help. Any opinions on that?
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Old 08-22-2006   #30
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My vote is also for the 35mm Summilux and 75mm Summicron.
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Old 08-22-2006   #31
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The 75mm summilux is hard to focus in low light solely because it has extremely little depth of field wide open. A .85 will help a bit, but there is no real cure. Your only option is to either put a bit more distance between you and your subject, or make sure they are still and you have locked proper focus before you shoot.
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Old 08-22-2006   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartR
The 75mm summilux is hard to focus in low light solely because it has extremely little depth of field wide open. A .85 will help a bit, but there is no real cure. Your only option is to either put a bit more distance between you and your subject, or make sure they are still and you have locked proper focus before you shoot.
Or if using an M body add the 1.25 magnifier, helps me when using the 90 ASPH wide and close. It sits in a little pouch on the strap when not used. Works for me anyway.
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Old 08-23-2006   #33
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Go with the LUX
Old 08-25-2006   #34
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Go with the LUX

I just retured a 35 SUmicron ASPH after using a 35Lux - The summilux is so nice and has a unique look that the summicron did not have. Its expensive, but a lifetime lens IMO. The 50 Lux ASP is amazing as well. Never tried the 75 but may pick one up. Im deciding between that and the 90.

Here are a couple from the 35 summilux ASPH
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mom2.jpg (104.0 KB, 152 views)
File Type: jpg b1.jpg (121.8 KB, 164 views)
File Type: jpg boysrocksm2x.jpg (102.5 KB, 137 views)
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Ooops.
Old 08-25-2006   #35
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Ooops.

posted the wrong version of pic 3, here is the larger one. The 35 Lux ASPH is amazing, and the summicron while great is more "clinical"
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35-75 thoughts
Old 08-26-2006   #36
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35-75 thoughts

I own both the 75 Summicron, and the 35 Summilux ASPH. Using them both with a lens carrier makes a good street kit. I have owned the 35 Summicron, and the size aspect is nicer than the latest 35 ASPH. The Summilux 75 is a lot heavier than the Summicron, and cuts into the finder view. Cutting in may be a mixed blessing, since the 75 frame cutouts are difficult to work with. I forget the 75 is on the camera and sometimes use the 50 lines. So the cutting in might help me remember .... (never owned a 75 'lux) Regarding quality; "it's all good", as they say. Going slowly would probably be all the advice I could give to someone deciding what to get, to set up a kit. One last aspect to consider; What body type to use with the kit the .85 finder would be tight with the 35,but good with both lenses. The .72, would be more relaxed with the 35 finder,but more difficult with the 75 because the tiny cutouts would more difficult to see.
I do not think getting a 50 is necessary. The 35 is kind of a wide 50, and the 75 is kind of a tele 50.
I have always doubled focal lengths for a kit.
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Old 08-26-2006   #37
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Using them both with a lens carrier makes a good street kit.

a lens carrier?
what would that be, a bag or...?
just curious.

joe
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Old 08-26-2006   #38
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There's a funky M rear lens cap that screws into the tripod hole. You'd have your second lens there, under the camera for semi-fast switch out. I'm only guessing that's what he's refering to, however. I'd rather keep lens #2 in my pocket, but styles vary.

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Old 08-26-2006   #39
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yeah, that holder scares me.
of course, i've only seen it in pics.
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Old 08-27-2006   #40
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