Old 11-24-2015   #121
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Again, this is not the feature set that will get me to upgrade.

If they had an MP-like digital M (controls, design, size), I would upgrade (probably just because I have more money than sense.)

Otherwise, I simply don't see enough improvements over the M8 for a hobby photographer like me to upgrade.

Otherwise, looks like a great camera for a lower price for the masses!

Last edited by JPSuisse : 11-25-2015 at 06:09. Reason: Lack of sense due to wrong pronoun...
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Old 11-24-2015   #122
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Originally Posted by JPSuisse View Post
Again, this is not the feature set that will get me to upgrade.

If I had an MP like digital M (controls, design, size), I would upgrade
As an M240 owner there is nothing compelling for me about the M262. I've never used video and rarely live view, but since the firmware update permitting both to be disabled I don't even notice they're there. And the nice thing Leica did was make it so you don't have to go into a menu to re-enable live view if you use the EVF, just plug it in and push the on/off button on the finder.

If however if technology would allow Leica to make a FF optical-rangefinder digital M the size of an M7 I would be very interested, even if it lacked an LCD.
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Old 11-24-2015   #123
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As an M240 owner there is nothing compelling for me about the M262. I've never used video and rarely live view, but since the firmware update permitting both to be disabled I don't even notice they're there.
How do you disable LiveView?
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Old 11-24-2015   #124
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By the LV button on the back -it switches LV off and on.
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Old 11-24-2015   #125
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By the LV button on the back -it switches LV off and on.
Isn't that exactly what someone was complaining about earlier? The button activates when the camera is put into its holster.

The solution: Switch LV on and then put the camera into its holster.
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Old 11-25-2015   #126
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If however if technology would allow Leica to make a FF optical-rangefinder digital M the size of an M7 I would be very interested, even if it lacked an LCD.
Thanks Ben, this is what I meant with MP-like: FF, optical rangefinder, digital, with same controls as my film MP. Like you, the Screen doesn't bother me, but I don't use it either.

Actually, I have been waiting for this for a while. It just doesn't come. Instead Leica insists on producing 20 near misses... M8.2, M9, M9-P (Very close that one!), miscellanious Safari Editions, M240, M-E, M-P, M262, etc.

But a near miss won't push me to upgrade in this case, because my M8 is also a perfectly useable near miss. Sure the M240 has better technology, but not really that much better for me.
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Old 11-25-2015   #127
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By the LV button on the back -it switches LV off and on.
What you describe is to activate/deactivate the function LV. What I want is to deactivate the feature, so that you can not activate the function at all.

Should be easy with a small change in firmware.
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Old 11-25-2015   #128
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If, I repeat IF () Leica had to listen to the desires of the potential clients who write in the forum they had to make so many different cameras....and still anybody would complain that...

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Old 11-25-2015   #129
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What you describe is to activate/deactivate the function LV. What I want is to deactivate the feature, so that you can not activate the function at all.

Should be easy with a small change in firmware.
Already works with v 2.0.1.7. Use the 240's Light Metering Mode “Classic / LV disabled”.

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Old 11-25-2015   #130
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Isn't that exactly what someone was complaining about earlier? The button activates when the camera is put into its holster.

The solution: Switch LV on and then put the camera into its holster.
Or don't put in a holster...
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Old 11-25-2015   #131
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Already works with v 2.0.1.7. Use the 240's Light Metering Mode “Classic / LV disabled”.

Roland.
Yes that would do it! Same with the 246.
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Old 11-25-2015   #132
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Already works with v 2.0.1.7. Use the 240's Light Metering Mode “Classic / LV disabled”.
Wow, this is great, thanks. I had 2.0.1.5 until now and just updated to 2.0.2.5 and regarding LV, it feels like a new camera.

Sadly (hey, I'm a custumer, I always complain... ), the issue of slow startup still exists. Just tested a nearly full 64GB SanDisk, that was formatted in camera. Startup time until the first shutter release were 14 seconds (holy moly! - in that time you can load a new film and shot the first five frames...). The same card in my Oly E-M1: less than two seconds until shutter release.

Anyway, with LV completely disabled, I can keep the M switched on for the whole day and don't care about startup times anymore.
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Old 11-25-2015   #133
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Or don't put in a holster...
Not an option. The M is too heavy to hold it the whole day in hand, also I usually carry a second camera. Holster is often the only good option for my style of moving, acting and shooting.

What puzzles me with your replies is (or I'm missing the humor even with the smileys) why it is so hard to just admit, that improvement is possible, even for our beloved Leica...
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Old 11-25-2015   #134
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If, I repeat IF () Leica had to listen to the desires of the potential clients who write in the forum they had to make so many different cameras....and still anybody would complain that...
But the DO make so many different cameras lately - and still... they don't get it right.
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Old 11-25-2015   #135
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[b]

Sadly (hey, I'm a custumer, I always complain... ), the issue of slow startup still exists. Just tested a nearly full 64GB SanDisk, that was formatted in camera. Startup time until the first shutter release were 14 seconds (holy moly! - in that time you can load a new film and shot the first five frames...). The same card in my Oly E-M1: less than two seconds until shutter release.
What's the write speed of that card? I just had a look at my 246 with a 32GB 95MB/s card with almost 500 RAW photos on it, and the startup time to first shutter release was about 2 seconds. Battery is at 75%.
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Old 11-25-2015   #136
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What's the write speed of that card? I just had a look at my 246 with a 32GB 95MB/s card with almost 500 RAW photos on it, and the startup time to first shutter release was about 2 seconds. Battery is at 75%.
45MB/s with 1870 RAWS - But on startup, the camera only reads (or should, at least), write speed should not matter.

Also, with the same card the E-M1 is ready in less than 2 seconds. So the card speed can not be the problem. The flaw is in the SW, that does something useless in a very inefficient way with the card.
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Old 11-25-2015   #137
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Just tested a nearly full 64GB SanDisk, that was formatted in camera. Startup time until the first shutter release were 14 seconds
.
I'm on 2.0.2.5 and with a SanDisk 16GB 30MB/s card startup to shutter activation is 1sec. (M-P)
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Old 11-25-2015   #138
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I'm on 2.0.2.5 and with a SanDisk 16GB 30MB/s card startup to shutter activation is 1sec. (M-P)
Pete
How many RAWs are on that card? If the card is empty, it is much faster.
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Old 11-25-2015   #139
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I have already spoken to the San Francisco Leica Store about an upgrade from my M9 to the M262 and it looks as if we will be able to swing a deal.

I like the idea of the quieter shutter and the higher ISO capability. Don't have any need for Live View or video on my Leica. I use video with other cameras and as for Live View...

I was able to test the focus accuracy on my Nokton 50/1.1 with my M9 and have the lens subsequently adjusted by Don, so I guess I am not clear why I have to have Live View to do that with the newer camera. I do agree it may be easier but certainly not impossible.

As for focus accuracy I use my Color Skopar 35/2.5 and Elmar M 50/3.5 the great majority of the time and I have no reason to believe that the new camera won't be able to work with those lenses with any less ability than the M9.

I may miss the CCD sensor but I kind of doubt that will be a real big issue in the long run. I guess I'll find out.
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Old 11-25-2015   #140
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45MB/s with 1870 RAWS - But on startup, the camera only reads (or should, at least), write speed should not matter.

Also, with the same card the E-M1 is ready in less than 2 seconds. So the card speed can not be the problem. The flaw is in the SW, that does something useless in a very inefficient way with the card.
Unfortunately that's not correct (or let me at least say that it is not correct based on my experience). Leica recommends minimum 95MB/s for the 246 (I'd assume it would be the same for the 240). It's in the owner's manual (at least it's in the 246 manual), plus I was having the exact same problem with my camera after I bought it (I was using slower write speed cards as you are using). I called Leica NJ and spoke with Mark Brady (he is a technical advisor), thinking there was a problem with the camera. He was the person at Leica who told me about using faster write speed cards -- I switched to 95MB/s cards, and it fixed the startup time problem. So maybe try your camera with faster write speed cards - it should make a difference.
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Old 11-25-2015   #141
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Not an option. The M is too heavy to hold it the whole day in hand, also I usually carry a second camera. Holster is often the only good option for my style of moving, acting and shooting.

What puzzles me with your replies is (or I'm missing the humor even with the smileys) why it is so hard to just admit, that improvement is possible, even for our beloved Leica...
Hmmm.. mine has strap lugs.
I believe in adapting my way of working to the tool in hand, after selecting the appropriate tool of course.
In my experience the tools tend to work best for me doing so.
And yes, the smiley is the key in the post you quote.
In this case I would tend to blame the holster rather than the camera, after all, some owners might want to use LV and the holster
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Old 11-26-2015   #142
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looks like it might INTEREST Moi
though I could for that money or rather under 5000.00
get a lightly used Monochrom
but then again occasional 'colour' has it's Fun

anyway who wants 'Live View' and Video , boring ... Not Me
Me too, this sounds like the m for me.
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Old 11-26-2015   #143
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How many RAWs are on that card? If the card is empty, it is much faster.
Ah, that could be it, there's virtually nothing on it.
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Old 11-26-2015   #144
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was thinking about what the ideal digital M would look to me and it would be something like this

-Leica M film camera size
-no LCD screen in the back
-ISO dial on the back like what the M60 or M7 have
-External EVF with 4 buttons (L-R, Review, Delete)

this will allow the camera to be used as a true RF camera with the option of Live-view and image review with the external EVF.
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Old 11-26-2015   #145
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was thinking about what the ideal digital M would look to me and it would be something like this

-Leica M film camera size
-no LCD screen in the back
-ISO dial on the back like what the M60 or M7 have
-External EVF with 4 buttons (L-R, Review, Delete)

this will allow the camera to be used as a true RF camera with the option of Live-view and image review with the external EVF.
My ideal camera as well. Maybe I would even try to save some money for that kind of leica if of course it is not a "collectors" overpriced edition. But an xpro2 with its hybrid ovf will do until then
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Old 11-26-2015   #146
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looks like it might INTEREST Moi
though I could for that money or rather under 5000.00
get a lightly used Monochrom
but then again occasional 'colour' has it's Fun

anyway who wants 'Live View' and Video , boring ... Not Me
I knew some day you'll get there ... .
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Old 11-26-2015   #147
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was thinking about what the ideal digital M would look to me and it would be something like this

-Leica M film camera size
-no LCD screen in the back
-ISO dial on the back like what the M60 or M7 have
-External EVF with 4 buttons (L-R, Review, Delete)

this will allow the camera to be used as a true RF camera with the option of Live-view and image review with the external EVF.
An interesting idea... And the External EVF could be an app for your smart phone. Simplicity, and most of us carry a smart phone anyway. Saves Leica from supplying another electronic device, lowers product cost...

The M (typ262) looks like a fine alternative or backup for the 240. Like Helen I don't need video or LV. I tried using the external EV with the 240 with a Pentax lens and found it error-prone and frustrating... I'll reserve such lens use to the Pentax dSLR instead.
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Old 11-27-2015   #148
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Wow, this is great, thanks. I had 2.0.1.5 until now and just updated to 2.0.2.5 and regarding LV, it feels like a new camera.

Sadly (hey, I'm a custumer, I always complain... ), the issue of slow startup still exists. Just tested a nearly full 64GB SanDisk, that was formatted in camera. Startup time until the first shutter release were 14 seconds (holy moly! - in that time you can load a new film and shot the first five frames...). The same card in my Oly E-M1: less than two seconds until shutter release.

Anyway, with LV completely disabled, I can keep the M switched on for the whole day and don't care about startup times anymore.
Does the 240 really take 14 seconds to start up?
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Old 11-27-2015   #149
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Does the 240 really take 14 seconds to start up?
No. With the right card, and using SD-Formatter, you can go below 2 sec. For which cards to use, see benchmarks here (from [email protected]):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hrp36ynkt3..._times.xls.pdf

I use Sandisk SDHC class 10 Extreme Pro 95 MB/s 8 GBytes cards, if it matters.

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Old 11-27-2015   #150
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Using Lexar Pro 16 Gb and 600x or 1000x it takes about 1.4 sec. But there is sample variation between cameras
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Old 11-29-2015   #151
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No. With the right card...
Yes, it does. But since this is off-topic in this thread, I started a new one:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...80#post2556480

Just one remark: Same SD card with worse conditions make my Olympus E-M1 start up in less than a second, so it is not the SD card alone. Also: the firmware of a premium camera should be able to format a SD card with the best possible parameters for its own use. It's not the SD card (I just bought a Lexar 150MB/s card to make sure...), it is the bad SW architecture of the firmware.
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Old 11-29-2015   #152
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I have already spoken to the San Francisco Leica Store about an upgrade from my M9 to the M262 and it looks as if we will be able to swing a deal.

I like the idea of the quieter shutter and the higher ISO capability. Don't have any need for Live View or video on my Leica. I use video with other cameras and as for Live View...

I was able to test the focus accuracy on my Nokton 50/1.1 with my M9 and have the lens subsequently adjusted by Don, so I guess I am not clear why I have to have Live View to do that with the newer camera. I do agree it may be easier but certainly not impossible.

As for focus accuracy I use my Color Skopar 35/2.5 and Elmar M 50/3.5 the great majority of the time and I have no reason to believe that the new camera won't be able to work with those lenses with any less ability than the M9.

I may miss the CCD sensor but I kind of doubt that will be a real big issue in the long run. I guess I'll find out.
Congrats!! The shutter and the ISO will be nice, looking forward to your experience

It is said that the RF on the 240 frame is less prone to jarring etc. But I seemed to have jarred my M9 into a perfect state
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Old 11-29-2015   #153
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I think that many are missing a huge advantage of having live view. It allows you to use pretty much any lens made. Why wouldn't you want the option of doing that? The feature does not add anything to the size of the camera - clue - the new budget M is the exact same size as the M240.
Don't want LV? Don't use it. There is an option in the menu to disable that and the video.

M100 with a dainty Zenit 85 1.5 for that swirlolisish bokeh.





I've used my M not just with standard Leica, Zeiss and CV glass, but also Zeiss ZF, Nikon, Minolta MC/MD, Lomo...

Why miss out on this opportunity?
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Old 11-29-2015   #154
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Huss, on the surface that sounds perfectly reasonable.

But in my reality I have cameras that are able to use all kinds of different lenses...but I have yet to do it.

Likewise, I have cameras that have Liveview available. And unless I am forced to work with it (that is the only way to use the camera) I never use it.

So, for me, spending an extra $1,500 USD for something I never use now that I do have it seems to be a lot like a waste of my money.
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Old 11-30-2015   #155
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Of course Liveview has a great utility, it transforms an RF camera in a versatile tool which can be used in that occasion where RF is not idoneous, long tele etc we all know this.

But some photographers are used to the only RF experience with a film camera and see the M typ 262 as the most similar tool, like it could be about myself switching from M7 to M262 !
It's nice to have options
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Old 11-30-2015   #156
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I think that many are missing a huge advantage of having live view. It allows you to use pretty much any lens made. Why wouldn't you want the option of doing that?
Because some people just pick a lens that works and go out and make photos. Different aspects intrigue different people.
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Old 11-30-2015   #157
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Because some people just pick a lens that works and go out and make photos. Different aspects intrigue different people.
But what if that lens is an old Minolta MC 58 1.2? (for example)


It's fun to see what lens you really gel with.

Anyway, if you don't want it and want to buy new, the 262 makes a lot of sense.
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Old 11-30-2015   #158
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I think that many are missing a huge advantage of having live view. It allows you to use pretty much any lens made. Why wouldn't you want the option of doing that? The feature does not add anything to the size of the camera - clue - the new budget M is the exact same size as the M240.
Don't want LV? Don't use it. There is an option in the menu to disable that and the video.

M100 with a dainty Zenit 85 1.5 for that swirlolisish bokeh.


I've used my M not just with standard Leica, Zeiss and CV glass, but also Zeiss ZF, Nikon, Minolta MC/MD, Lomo...

Why miss out on this opportunity?
Please do not show me pictures like that
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Old 11-30-2015   #159
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I think that many are missing a huge advantage of having live view. It allows you to use pretty much any lens made. Why wouldn't you want the option of doing that? The feature does not add anything to the size of the camera - clue - the new budget M is the exact same size as the M240.
Don't want LV? Don't use it. There is an option in the menu to disable that and the video.

This is the exact reason I went with the 240 ... it gives it incredible versatility.
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Old 12-01-2015   #160
jsrockit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
But what if that lens is an old Minolta MC 58 1.2? (for example)


It's fun to see what lens you really gel with.
I get you...I have some lenses I swear have something special about them. However, I was just giving an alternative reason as to why someone might not care about using every lens ever made.
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