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View Poll Results: Gear choice
Update to used M10, keep M4-2. Use only J-3 and J-12. 12 26.09%
Update to new M-E 240, keep M4-2, Summarit-M 35 2.5 7 15.22%
Get Nokton 35 1.4 II for M-E 220, keep M4-2, Summarit-M 35 2.5. 8 17.39%
Keep M-E 220, get used Monochrome, use only J-3 and J-12. 4 8.70%
Something else. 15 32.61%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-02-2020   #81
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Then I started with film in 2012 I had easy to commute job.
Fifteen minutes, no hwy commute.
Now I have two hours one way commute and lack of sleep. Can't do film, DR as before. Here is no DR on the Go train.

4 hours a day commuting? It's time to move, not buy more camera gear.
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Old 01-02-2020   #82
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4 hours a day commuting? It's time to move, not buy more camera gear.
Post #50
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Old 01-02-2020   #83
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Post #50

I dont buy it. 4 hours a day commuting is a prison, as another person said.
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Old 01-02-2020   #84
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I don’t know Ted, the way I see it
A prison is a state of mind (unless You really are physically in one)
We can always change our mindset

Some can utilize, optimize their Time in extraordinary ways
Depends how disciplined and passionate You are in making things work for You
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Old 01-02-2020   #85
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Since you are commuting by train and have that time to attend to post processing, why not just add the 35 Nokton? From your description the commute is not the slog of sitting in your car for hours on end but time that can be used. It looks like an opportunity to put that time to use instead of sitting in front of a computer at home.
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Old 01-02-2020   #86
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I don’t know Ted, the way I see it
A prison is a state of mind (unless You really are physically in one)
We can always change our mindset

Some can utilize, optimize their Time in extraordinary ways
Depends how disciplined and passionate You are in making things work for You

If he lives alone then yes, it's not that big a deal. But to be away from your family for so many hours each and every day, that is a crushing burden that should only be carried under the most severe circumstances.
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Old 01-02-2020   #87
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Since you are commuting by train and have that time to attend to post processing, why not just add the 35 Nokton? From your description the commute is not the slog of sitting in your car for hours on end but time that can be used. It looks like an opportunity to put that time to use instead of sitting in front of a computer at home.
It is option number three ! Last option to try with M-E before writing it off from low light street photography.
From my ride right now.
https://flic.kr/p/2i98cEi
If I’ll have time I will post today low light M-E taken pictures for evaluation here.


Why nobody using maxmax x100tm? Is only contrast AF fails?
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Old 01-02-2020   #88
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Thanks for nice words. I do not like film this much and DR printing, I just like results .

I have some of your paper left and I have some more old paper, but it isn't fun. Each sheet developing time is slightly different.
Once I finish it all, I have no plans to continue. New DR paper prices are outrageously greedy and only going up. Used digital Leica prices going only down.

To be honest, I feel more time is wasted in DR, rather than in commute.

Well then, you are beginning to be more like me. I shoot 75-80% digital and 20-25% film. Obviously, I don't print in the darkroom any more (you have all my paper!), but I develop my film at the kitchen sink and scan negatives. That's still work, but more enjoyable overall than printing.

I don't miss printing. My old "darkroom" was a corner closet in the garage that didn't get fully dark until night, and it got cold at night. And often I was tired and sleepy at night, so I made mistakes and had more frustration, etc. No, I don't miss printing.

Now, I should say that I have been dabbling in alternative printing; mostly cyanotypes. I have LF negatives, but often make a "digital negative" using an image shot with my digital Leica and printed on my Epson printer (on transparency material). I have a UV light box and a printing frame that I can use during the day when I'm awake, comfortable, and happy. Even though I'm just dabbling with this, I actually enjoy it.

So Kostya, maybe with your new M10 you can start making digital negatives (5x7 or 8x10) and then make cyanotype, or van-dyke, or maybe even Pt/Pd prints? Or just use your new M10 and make inkjet prints on the Epson. Or just use your new M10 and stockpile image files on your harddrive. No matter what, make sure to enjoy your new M10. I recommend a black one (new M10).
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Old 01-02-2020   #89
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Why nobody using maxmax x100tm? Is only contrast AF fails?
Very expensive for what it is. They do good B&W without the conversion. The x100t has PD autofocus but it isn't quite to the level of the x100f which is basically a mini X Pro 2. And can be had for just over a third of the price of the converted x100t and it has a sensor with 50% more resolution.

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Old 01-02-2020   #90
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Here are six from forty photos taken today with M-E from dusk to dawn. Well, before and after as well


I have it set on ISO Auto, first two f4-f5.6 and 1/125 and exposure compensation -2.
Then in LR I push exposure to the right to have images visible.




ISO1000.




ISO 2000




ISO 2500 1/24 instead of 1/25



ISO 2500 1/90 f2.5



ISO2500 1/90 f2.



ISO2500 1/30 f4



So, ISO up to 2500 with exposure compensation -2 and then at least +2 for exposure in LR.
What I do wrong?
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Old 01-02-2020   #91
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I have to cut on film and DR use. Takes too much time, which I don't have anymore.
But I like to use Leica M cameras.


1. M10 fascinates me by high ISO capabilities. For street and home. I have no issues with J-3 and J-12 as the only lenses on digital. Booth are OK on film.

2. To keep M-E title with me and get new and more robust camera.

3. I have to cut on film. Will keep only small enlarger to print once a month. I also have not expensive C-41 developing available for now.
Summarit-M is bw film lens, but I have to cut my use of film and DR.

4. Monochrome is direct alternative for bw film for me. I will inkjet more instead of DR.

5. Something else? I have Olympus E-PL1 with f8 pancake and OVF. No AF, no MF.
Great for daylight and with flash indoors. I just can't use EVF, screen.
Dear friend,

"I just can't use EVF, screen."

Yes and we must decide whether the moment precedes the capture or whether the capture precedes the moment.

What a simple yet obviously overlooked difference between modes of composition, especially as regards the rangefinder photographer.

The rangefinder way is to say 'yes' and press the 'release' when we see a 'moment'.

The capture precedes the moment (and is, in my opinion, less immediate or 'authentic' or 'positive') when we say 'yes' to an image of a moment already gone.

I cannot express how important this difference is.
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Old 01-02-2020   #92
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And now, since I’m on cushy ride via Go train, the answer for our Americans.

My commute is not typical Americans commute.
No car is involved.
I take bicycle or bus, then go train and then I walk and take pictures where I like to take them. Big city. Classic downtown, with crowds and highrises. Extroverts and other big city nice people to photograph.
Twice or more after work I walk extra hour and practice my street photography.
I’m on the work I like.
I’m not a looser who is looking for any job near home, just because commute means car in America.
I fire up bbq on ravine looking lot on weekends and go skiing on evenings.
I hike with kids in the forest and I hike with camera in big city’s jungle.
So, who is the looser?
Our family’s friend who is completing destinations, assignments while on go train for higher paid job?
While on Go train I read, listen, taking pictures, drinking booze or even snoring loud.

My advice, take trip to Europe or even to Moscow. This will help to understand how commute doesn’t mean bad thing. My mother was commuting an hour and half one way in Moscow for forty years. She doesn’t have driving license it is useless in Moscow or any city where civilization has come.
I have no DR on the go train, but I could edit pictures taken digitally and nobody bugs on the go.
Yeah sure, KO-FE -- commuting is magically transformed when you come over to this side of the Atlantic. As several others have pointed out commuting is gruelling, however you slice it. I walk and take the Metro here in Oslo and it takes roughly two hours of my time a day. I have taken some photos yes and I can be more productive on the train than I would be driving, but then there is little joy in sitting on a train, hoping to make one's connection in time and seeing if there is a seat available. Fortunately I don't have to sit next to people who are drinking on the train. That's illegal here.
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Old 01-03-2020   #93
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Travel dude, I don’t drink sitting next to people. And i’m not panicking over connection, because here is none to miss. And seat is always available because it is end to end ride.

If your commute sucks it doesn’t mean the rest are just same losers.
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Old 01-03-2020   #94
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Well then, you are beginning to be more like me. I shoot 75-80% digital and 20-25% film. Obviously, I don't print in the darkroom any more (you have all my paper!), but I develop my film at the kitchen sink and scan negatives. That's still work, but more enjoyable overall than printing.

I don't miss printing. My old "darkroom" was a corner closet in the garage that didn't get fully dark until night, and it got cold at night. And often I was tired and sleepy at night, so I made mistakes and had more frustration, etc. No, I don't miss printing.

Now, I should say that I have been dabbling in alternative printing; mostly cyanotypes. I have LF negatives, but often make a "digital negative" using an image shot with my digital Leica and printed on my Epson printer (on transparency material). I have a UV light box and a printing frame that I can use during the day when I'm awake, comfortable, and happy. Even though I'm just dabbling with this, I actually enjoy it.

So Kostya, maybe with your new M10 you can start making digital negatives (5x7 or 8x10) and then make cyanotype, or van-dyke, or maybe even Pt/Pd prints? Or just use your new M10 and make inkjet prints on the Epson. Or just use your new M10 and stockpile image files on your harddrive. No matter what, make sure to enjoy your new M10. I recommend a black one (new M10).
I’m thinking of using this old paper for bromoil or how it is called. And it is still fine for lith.
I printed two of pictures which I posted above, easy peasy with inkjet.
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Old 01-03-2020   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Here are six from forty photos taken today with M-E from dusk to dawn. Well, before and after as well


I have it set on ISO Auto, first two f4-f5.6 and 1/125 and exposure compensation -2.
Then in LR I push exposure to the right to have images visible.




ISO1000.




ISO 2000




ISO 2500 1/24 instead of 1/25



ISO 2500 1/90 f2.5



ISO2500 1/90 f2.



ISO2500 1/30 f4



So, ISO up to 2500 with exposure compensation -2 and then at least +2 for exposure in LR.
What I do wrong?
Each one has a different idea of what is acceptable and what is not. In my opinion these pghots are good at least on a monitor, they convey the sense of the low available light ! And are well composed and well seen!
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My RFF photos and my albums on RFF
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Old 01-03-2020   #96
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Why nobody using maxmax x100tm? Is only contrast AF fails?
What is this?
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Old 01-03-2020   #97
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Each one has a different idea of what is acceptable and what is not. In my opinion these pghots are good at least on a monitor, they convey the sense of the low available light ! And are well composed and well seen!
I concur. Nice work, Kostya!
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Old 01-03-2020   #98
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I would limit myself to talk about the photos and wouldn't speak about commuting.

Yet, bracket open : I have been forced, with no other choice left, to commute hard in the past when I was a young father of a very young kid - that was in a not American but ugly capitalist country nonetheless - and I know that's not fun, sometimes you just have to accept it or you become unemployed, and if you decide to move it's your wife who will either have to commute like crazy or become unemployed herself, so I would advise people here to turn their fingers seven times over their keyboards before posting, what has been written about how commuting was truly paradisiac in the USSR included - okay, bracket closed.

Photos above : at ISO 2000 the noise becomes really unpleasant with an ugly texture and at ISO 2500 it's awful with, cherry on the cake, some nasty banding.

Exposure compensation to -2 ? Well that would mean ISO 4000 and ISO 5000 if shot as RAW (DNG). While shooting RAW (DNG), using the exposure compensation is the exact same thing as changing ISOs. That has been demonstrated.

So those pics were taken at ISO 2000, ISO 4000 and ISO 5000 actually.

Kostya, you have two options with the digital camera you're using there :

- you don't go over an actual level of ISO 800 - ISO 1600, you get better at taking candid photos at night (look at Brassaï's work for instance), you open your diaphragm a bit more and, moreover, you don't want to take photos at night as if you were taking photos during the day, because it's... well, night,

- you can't help using high ISOs then you must sell this crap of an M-E and buy a Nikon or a Canon FF DSLR. With my old D700 I used high ISOs once (to shoot a theatre play and get speeds over 1/125s with enough of DOF though) and I got way better results at ISO 6400, with very well contained noise and certainly no banding at all.

Ugly digital noise with banding added will not likely pass the "Each one has an idea of what is acceptable and what is not" test.
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Old 01-03-2020   #99
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Thank you both! .

But I really push camera limit nd it doesn't work much for dynamic shots.

MAXMAX is small company selling or modifying cameras to have color arrays removed.
https://maxmax.com/
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Old 01-03-2020   #100
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Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
I would limit myself to talk about the photos and wouldn't speak about commuting.

Yet, bracket open : I have been forced, with no other choice left, to commute hard in the past when I was a young father of a very young kid - that was in a not American but ugly capitalist country nonetheless - and I know that's not fun, sometimes you just have to accept it or you become unemployed, and if you decide to move it's your wife who will either have to commute like crazy or become unemployed herself, so I would advise people here to turn their fingers seven times over their keyboards before posting, what has been written about how commuting was truly paradisiac in the USSR included - okay, bracket closed.

Photos above : at ISO 2000 the noise becomes really unpleasant with an ugly texture and at ISO 2500 it's awful with, cherry on the cake, some nasty banding.

Exposure compensation to -2 ? Well that would mean ISO 4000 and ISO 5000 if shot as RAW (DNG). While shooting RAW (DNG), using the exposure compensation is the exact same thing as changing ISOs. That has been demonstrated.

So those pics were taken at ISO 2000, ISO 4000 and ISO 5000 actually.

Kostya, you have two options with the digital camera you're using there :

- you don't go over an actual level of ISO 800 - ISO 1600, you get better at taking candid photos at night (look at Brassaï's work for instance), you open your diaphragm a bit more and, moreover, you don't want to take photos at night as if you were taking photos during the day, because it's... well, night,

- you can't help using high ISOs then you must sell this crap of an M-E and buy a Nikon or a Canon FF DSLR. With my old D700 I used high ISOs once (to shoot a theatre play and get speeds over 1/125s with enough of DOF though) and I got way better results at ISO 6400, with very well contained noise and certainly no banding at all.

Ugly digital noise with banding added will not likely pass the "Each one has an idea of what is acceptable and what is not" test.
During USSR time I was taking daily trips after school. Something like two buses and subway. More than one hour one way was nothing special.
In winter time I would often take public transit from north end to south end of Moscow.
In FSU Moscow I quit from driving and was using only public transit.
I think it is in nature of street photographer to like commute, because it means seeing people and changing scenes.

My grandmother family after home town Rzev was destroyed moved to Moscow suburbs. She worked at the store in central Moscow. Every day she has to be at work sharp. If not, Stalin time camps.
I'll post my low light pictures of within Toronto two hour commute story in Canadian Leicas thread.

I started street photography around 2010 with DLSR. Was working out FF DSLR with 17-40 zoom on it. Then switched to consumer DSLR with tiny prime. Now it isn't my cup of tea anymore.

Thank you for ISO calculations. 2000, 4000 and 5000 are in camera -2 exposure dial. But how about pushing two stops in LR I did?

Switching to Brassaï's tripod shots isn't something I'm into. I did it in the past as well.
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Old 01-03-2020   #101
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Indeed traveling can be inspiring if one is not locked costantly in the small box, and if you enjoy it that is not a problem as it is to some . If you insist shooting at slow apertures then m10 appears to have much better iso , m240 is definetely better than m9 but not by big margin. I would recommend trying other than lightroom raw converters like dxo, raw therapee( various demasaicing algorithms avaiable including ones for high iso files) and editing technique ie rasiging whites and highlights more than shadows and blacks, using curves to raise exposure use fast apertures more . Modern lenses like ultron 35 1.7 are sharp across the frame from wide open.
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Old 01-03-2020   #102
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2000, 4000 and 5000 are in camera -2 exposure dial. But how about pushing two stops in LR I did?

Switching to Brassaï's tripod shots isn't something I'm into. I did it in the past as well.
1. I repeat : setting the ISO dial at 1000 with turning the exposure compensation to -2 then pushing by two stops in LR while "developing" the image so that the histogram is correct and the image pops out with normal blacks, greys, whites, is the exact same thing than turning the ISO button to 2000 before depressing the shutter release then not doing anything special in LR. Ditto re. 2000 -> 4000 and 2500 -> 5000. So here the results are bad because your M-E sensor is not good above ISO 1600, it creates much digital noise (of various types, no need to elaborate on this) and banding when no light enough hits its surface. Sensor signal/noise ratio issue, the sensor is the culprit and nothing can be done to turn the problem out but getting another camera with a better sensor, if you definitely cannot be happy with staying below ISO 1600 with the lenses you have and the way you use them for the photos you like to take, was it during the day or at night.

2. It's not at all about switching to Brassaï's tripod but this is about getting somehow inspired with Brassaï's point of view about the night and what makes a night photo interesting and more interesting. Getting out at night with a camera doesn't make you take great photos instantly. Night photos obey to the same rules as daylight photos as for the interest of the subject, the composition, the tones, the light, all in all what the photo tells as for a story. That ISO thing comes later - yet, terrible digital noise and unexpected banding will ruin a masterpiece as well as they will ruin an unsignificant photograph whose place is in the family album only.
A great part of the most beautiful photos of the history of photography were taken under very difficult light circumstances with slow speed films and f/3.5 lenses. So, using a versatile camera able to work from ISO 160 to ISO 800 (let's not even say ISO 1600 which is the upper acceptable limit of the M-E Typ 220 sensor) by just pushing a button and f/2 modern multicoated lenses is plenty enough to face any kind of situation for the advanced amateur photographer.
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Old 01-03-2020   #103
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1. I repeat : setting the ISO dial at 1000 with turning the exposure compensation to -2 then pushing by two stops in LR while "developing" the image so that the histogram is correct and the image pops out with normal blacks, greys, whites, is the exact same thing than turning the ISO button to 2000 before depressing the shutter release then not doing anything special in LR. Ditto re. 2000 -> 4000 and 2500 -> 5000. So here the results are bad because your M-E sensor is not good above ISO 1600, it creates much digital noise (of various types, no need to elaborate on this) and banding when no light enough hits its surface. Sensor signal/noise ratio issue, the sensor is the culprit and nothing can be done to turn the problem out but getting another camera with a better sensor, if you definitely cannot be happy with staying below ISO 1600 with the lenses you have and the way you use them for the photos you like to take, was it during the day or at night.

2. It's not at all about switching to Brassaï's tripod but this is about getting somehow inspired with Brassaï's point of view about the night and what makes a night photo interesting and more interesting. Getting out at night with a camera doesn't make you take great photos instantly. Night photos obey to the same rules as daylight photos as for the interest of the subject, the composition, the tones, the light, all in all what the photo tells as for a story. That ISO thing comes later - yet, terrible digital noise and unexpected banding will ruin a masterpiece as well as they will ruin an unsignificant photograph whose place is in the family album only.
A great part of the most beautiful photos of the history of photography were taken under very difficult light circumstances with slow speed films and f/3.5 lenses. So, using a versatile camera able to work from ISO 160 to ISO 800 (let's not even say ISO 1600 which is the upper acceptable limit of the M-E Typ 220 sensor) by just pushing a button and f/2 modern multicoated lenses is plenty enough to face any kind of situation for the advanced amateur photographer.
Thank you for ISO clarification.
It looks like M9M with ISO 10000 is sufficient for my amateur needs.
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Old 01-03-2020   #104
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MAXMAX is small company selling or modifying cameras to have color arrays removed.
https://maxmax.com/
Thank you. I didn´t know about it.
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Old 01-03-2020   #105
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...MAXMAX is small company selling or modifying cameras to have color arrays removed.
https://maxmax.com/

Fascinating; thanks; David
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Old 01-03-2020   #106
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Monochrome Imaging does the same thing and their prices are considerably less expensive. A Sony A7RII conversion is $800.

Shawn
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Old 01-03-2020   #107
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...

2. It's not at all about switching to Brassaï's tripod but this is about getting somehow inspired with Brassaï's point of view about the night and what makes a night photo interesting and more interesting. Getting out at night with a camera doesn't make you take great photos instantly. Night photos obey to the same rules as daylight photos as for the interest of the subject, the composition, the tones, the light, all in all what the photo tells as for a story.
cldn't agree more. we shouldn't be trying to replicate what we see during the lighted hours, but find something that exists BECAUSE of the darkness.
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Old 01-03-2020   #108
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What's wrong with using the Leica you already have? I don't think you need anything new. That's not photography; that's just spending money.
.... you load your own film & use outdated paper......& you’re considering an M10
.....w Canadian $. Happy 2020
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Old 01-03-2020   #109
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.... you load your own film & use outdated paper......& you’re considering an M10
.....w Canadian $. Happy 2020
I didn’t mention it clearly enough, used M10 and with money after gear is sold. No CC is going to be in use.
No CAD either.
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Old 01-03-2020   #110
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Originally Posted by newsgrunt View Post
cldn't agree more. we shouldn't be trying to replicate what we see during the lighted hours, but find something that exists BECAUSE of the darkness.
Sure, but why I should photograph something you are both interested in?
I’m not.
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Old 01-03-2020   #111
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Face it KF, you’re about to join the ranks of the ‘elitists’ you like to rail against .....
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Old 01-03-2020   #112
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Originally Posted by Deardorff38 View Post
Face it KF, you’re about to join the ranks of the ‘elitists’ you like to rail against .....
Are you saying I’m going to barely use it and take LUF kind of pictures with it?
I’m already half into it after getting new M-E and Summarit.
Nor I was in poor Canadian artists club with three ELC Leicas and ELC glass.

Are you my internal voice with ten and most votes for “something else”, which tells me “skip it all and get Kodak Toronto Brownie”?
Well, I had it. Three times.
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Old 01-03-2020   #113
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Originally Posted by shawn View Post
Monochrome Imaging does the same thing and their prices are considerably less expensive. A Sony A7RII conversion is $800.

Shawn
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The conversion increases contrast, so the focusing is a little faster when using the contrast detect AF. I don’t have any numbers to prove this, it is just a gut feeling. And since I don’t use autofocus anyway, I cannot guarantee the results.
I’m not sure if I need non af evf camera...
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Old 01-03-2020   #114
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Here are six from forty photos taken today with M-E from dusk to dawn. Well, before and after as well

I have it set on ISO Auto, first two f4-f5.6 and 1/125 and exposure compensation -2.
Then in LR I push exposure to the right to have images visible.


ISO 2000

These TWO are my Favorites, LOVE THEM, wish I took them !
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Old 01-03-2020   #115
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Your night landscape reminds me
of my Day Landscape M5 and Summitar



in the Distance...
by Helen Hill, on Flickr
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Old 01-03-2020   #116
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Get it down to 2 blocks...one film one digital...and 1 set of primes that work on both blocks...one laptop with nice software...Hotspot cellular. A couple nice bags... Then you're styling!

I ride the bus home work everyday. Many times it is the most interesting part of my day. lol
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Old 01-04-2020   #117
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Thank you, Helen, for this honor.
Those two are the limit for M-E low light use. Static or close to it shots.

Thank you, Contarama. At last I'm not alone on my commute.

I see no reason to use Summarit-M on digital, it isn't any better than Color Skopar 35 2.5 on digital. But it is superior bw film rendering lens.
With gear I'm willing sell, I could still keep M4-2 and Summarit-M 35 f2.5 as my film block. And change M-E 220 to M-E 240 or to used M240 + Nokton 35 1.4 II for digital block.

Leica M digital series are kind of primitive cameras without dust reduction, I like to have just one lens on digital M.

Pushed M240 sensor image isn't much behind on MM246 @ ISO10000.
https://www.reddotforum.com/content/...-vs-m-typ-240/
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Old 01-04-2020   #118
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This is starting to sound like a Raid thread.



You never ISO issues with your film camera. Why would you with the digital?
Is this a praise?!
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Old 01-04-2020   #119
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2. It's not at all about switching to Brassaï's tripod but this is about getting somehow inspired with Brassaï's point of view about the night and what makes a night photo interesting and more interesting. Getting out at night with a camera doesn't make you take great photos instantly. Night photos obey to the same rules as daylight photos as for the interest of the subject, the composition, the tones, the light, all in all what the photo tells as for a story. That ISO thing comes later - yet, terrible digital noise and unexpected banding will ruin a masterpiece as well as they will ruin an unsignificant photograph whose place is in the family album only.
A great part of the most beautiful photos of the history of photography were taken under very difficult light circumstances with slow speed films and f/3.5 lenses. So, using a versatile camera able to work from ISO 160 to ISO 800 (let's not even say ISO 1600 which is the upper acceptable limit of the M-E Typ 220 sensor) by just pushing a button and f/2 modern multicoated lenses is plenty enough to face any kind of situation for the advanced amateur photographer.
solid insight, well expressed, and true for me too.
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Old 01-04-2020   #120
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Originally Posted by helenhill View Post
Your night landscape reminds me
of my Day Landscape M5 and Summitar



in the Distance...
by Helen Hill, on Flickr



This picture resonates with my daily commute...
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