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Photographing Ballet
Old 3 Weeks Ago   #1
LCSmith
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Photographing Ballet

Have you done it? Any tips? I will have a 50, a 90, and a 21, and I will be backstage.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #2
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Backstage? Are you shooting "Behind the Scenes" photos?

Those lenses will be mostly worthless for shooting ballet actually happening. You'll want an 80-200mm f/2.8 and maybe a 300mm f/2.8 depending on staging and size of the venue, and a good camera with excellent AF and high ISO capability.

If you are shooting posed images on stage for simply marketing material, just follow the staging advice from the director and/or choreographer and shoot appropriately. Ask them to bring up the lighting if it's too dim. No flash - ruins the mood of the lights. Lock your white balance at incandescent (or whatever works best) and don't try to correct to "white."

I've shot a lot of dance/theatre but always at the opening/preview events while the show was going on. If you can, see a rehearsal beforehand so you know what's going to happen. The local news guy came in usually and made a couple snaps of posed images, but IMO posed shots are boring and always obviously posed.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #3
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If you've never seen it close-up be prepared for true horror!
Blood in their shoes, spoken to like prisoners in a Feudal society..
The illusion of beauty is remarkable!
If dancers are under age, quit now!
Everybody assumes you are a pedophile..sigh.
A fast camera, available light as flash too difficult.
I worked with SLR Nikon Ftn (film days) 28mm,35mm,50mm f2.0, 105mm f2.5. 400 ASA (ISO).
Digital gives way more effective shooting.
Great color under difficult lighting.
Watch as much as possible before really shooting..

I photographed my niece (became a ballerina in Provincial Corps).
Also professional companies..
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #4
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My experience is just with kids recitals. EV values around 5-6 on stage under the lights, depending on the gels used.

Tells us more about what you are trying to do. If you are documenting the show, if you have the opportunity to capture some of the jumps at rehearsal, where you could use strobes, etc.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froyd View Post
My experience is just with kids recitals. EV values around 5-6 on stage under the lights, depending on the gels used.
Thanks, this is helpful.

It is a professional company at a large theater. I have access to back stage areas an hour or so before the performance, and also during the performance.

What kind of shots "work"?

I shoot bw film with a rangefinder. It's all I shoot. Yes, I am very good at focusing and the equipment is not a hinderance.

Now I shall duck and hide and prepare for calumny.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6
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This might provide a bit of inspiration -- just saw this in this morning's NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/m...gtype=Homepage

Any possibility of being able to shoot a dress rehearsal?
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #7
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Ideally you'll have see the performance once before to help you know when key moments are about to happen. My experience is with film also, and motion blur, blown highlights, not enough lens reach have all been issues.

If you use an incident meter (highly recommended here) make sure you get a chance to take readings under the various light schemes used during the performance. If pushing film, with increased contrast you might risk blowing highlights unless you meter correctly. This is especially true if the costumes are white or a pale color.

Even with backstage access, the 50 might struggle to reach the action on stage. This obviously depends on the size of the theater, but if it is as I suspect, you might want to shift your focus from dancer-only shots to images that include some of the environment (curtains, audience, tech crew). These could be quite interesting.

Speaking of lenses, not sure how fast is your 21, but it could be a challenge to use under typical performance light conditions. Could be handy for the after-party!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #8
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #9
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCSmith View Post
It is a professional company at a large theater. I have access to back stage areas an hour or so before the performance, and also during the performance.

What kind of shots "work"?

I shoot bw film with a rangefinder. It's all I shoot. Yes, I am very good at focusing and the equipment is not a hinderance.
You'll need to define what you (or they) are looking for.

You simply won't be getting live action shots of the performance with that gear/limitation, which is fine if that's not what the intent is. Backstage lighting will be even dimmer and more restrictive. Get some T-Max 3200 and see what you can get.

I've shot a lot of this kinda thing, both as a photographer and someone working in various capacities both back and front of stage. Planning and consideration of the conditions is key, especially with the gear you want to use.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
You'll need to define what you (or they) are looking for.

You simply won't be getting live action shots of the performance with that gear/limitation, which is fine if that's not what the intent is.
Yes, action will be difficult but it depends on the lighting on stage. I do not have experience photographing in this kind of environment at all. I am not "looking to get" any particular kind of photo, which means I can experiment quite a bit. Much will depend on what kind of position I can get backstage without being in the way and looking like a rube (which, in my case, is largely unavoidable anyway).
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froyd View Post
This obviously depends on the size of the theater, but if it is as I suspect, you might want to shift your focus from dancer-only shots to images that include some of the environment (curtains, audience, tech crew). These could be quite interesting.
Yes, these are the photos I am most interested in.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #13
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Just last weekend I was at a symphony concert that had very bright stage lighting. According to my meter (I was, in fact, shooting some BTS images on b&w film in a rangefinder), the exposure was f/2.8 at 1/60 and an EI of 400.

A theater/ballet show will definitely not have that kind of light during the show. I remember often being set at an ISO of 6400 on my digital to get action shots at f/2.8 and 1/250. But of course the lights are very dependent on the show and artistic direction.

Backstage shots can be nice if that interests you. I often take backstage photos of the performers or stagehands. Here's a friend of mine from this past weekend working on a score at a recording session I was working with him:



Shot at f/1.8 and 1/8 of a second at an EI of 400...
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCSmith View Post
Thanks, this is helpful.

It is a professional company at a large theater. I have access to back stage areas an hour or so before the performance, and also during the performance.

What kind of shots "work"?

I shoot bw film with a rangefinder. It's all I shoot. Yes, I am very good at focusing and the equipment is not a hinderance.

Now I shall duck and hide and prepare for calumny.
Sorry, I had to jump in here because ballet and modern dance are practically the ONLY things I photograph! (Yeah, the fact that I'm the marketing director of a professional ballet company has something to do with that, but I was doing it a long time before that!)

The main things I want to do are tell you not to worry and to assure you that you're going to have a wonderful opportunity! The best thing you can do is put away all your preconceptions and get ready to be an alert, astute observer. A few specifics:

— The equipment you have is PERFECT for photographing a dance performance from backstage and in the wings. I can't think of a better setup than a rangefinder camera and the lenses you've got. (Technically, ‘backstage’ can mean everywhere in the working end of the theater, including dressing-room area, costume shop, etc., while the ‘wings’ are the draped areas at either side of the actual stage. Both areas offer lots of great photo opportunities.)

— Don't worry about showing what the performance looks like from the house... if people want to see that, they can buy a ticket! You're getting the opportunity to show a side of a performance that most people DON'T see. No 300mm lens required!

— Don't worry about anticipating what the company might want. Presumably, the fact that you've been granted backstage access (that's a big deal; be proud!) means they're interested in what YOU observe.

— Even though you've got permission, it's a REALLY good idea to find a few moments you can talk with the stage manager before you get started. The stage manager is the boss of everything that happens backstage. Of particular importance, s/he will be able to tell you areas that it’s important to stay out of (because of the dangers of moving scenery, flying bodies, etc.) and where you can stand without being visible from the house.

— During the performance, things move very fast backstage: dancers have to run off and make quick costume changes, people are going from one side of the stage to the other, they have to find props, emergency costume repairs need to be made, etc. This can make for exciting and authentic images, just make sure you DO NOT GET IN ANYONE'S WAY EVER! What you're doing is important, but the show is still top priority.

— Shoot a lot, because you'll have a lot of duds. Metering is going to be hard because of the varying lighting conditions you'll encounter — the stage is bright, farther back in the wings it's dark, the shop and dressing room areas are a mixed bag. When I'm in the wings I love to shoot straight into the lights and let the lens flares fall where they may, but it's almost impossible to get a meter reading that makes sense, so just take your best guess and then bracket!

A few seasons ago I shot an entire performance of “Giselle” almost entirely from the wings, and I just threw a bunch of those photos into a Flickr album in the hope that it will get you enthused about this opportunity:

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmKVYZzH

Final thought: Everything you think you know about ballet is probably wrong! Let go of your preconceptions and see what's there!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #15
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Amazing what expertise is present at RFF!
I imagine that if you can speak with the person who does the lighting, that could be very helpful for getting your exposures right. And one of the 3200 films and perhaps a compensating or two-bath developer would be useful, but you should always test first.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #16
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You may want to have a look at the work of Souheil Michael Khoury.


Link to his FB page: https://www.facebook.com/SMKDancePhotography


Paul
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger9 View Post
Sorry, I had to jump in here because ballet and modern dance are practically the ONLY things I photograph! (Yeah, the fact that I'm the marketing director of a professional ballet company has something to do with that, but I was doing it a long time before that!)

The main things I want to do are tell you not to worry and to assure you that you're going to have a wonderful opportunity! The best thing you can do is put away all your preconceptions and get ready to be an alert, astute observer. A few specifics:

— The equipment you have is PERFECT for photographing a dance performance from backstage and in the wings. I can't think of a better setup than a rangefinder camera and the lenses you've got. (Technically, ‘backstage’ can mean everywhere in the working end of the theater, including dressing-room area, costume shop, etc., while the ‘wings’ are the draped areas at either side of the actual stage. Both areas offer lots of great photo opportunities.)

— Don't worry about showing what the performance looks like from the house... if people want to see that, they can buy a ticket! You're getting the opportunity to show a side of a performance that most people DON'T see. No 300mm lens required!

— Don't worry about anticipating what the company might want. Presumably, the fact that you've been granted backstage access (that's a big deal; be proud!) means they're interested in what YOU observe.

— Even though you've got permission, it's a REALLY good idea to find a few moments you can talk with the stage manager before you get started. The stage manager is the boss of everything that happens backstage. Of particular importance, s/he will be able to tell you areas that it’s important to stay out of (because of the dangers of moving scenery, flying bodies, etc.) and where you can stand without being visible from the house.

— During the performance, things move very fast backstage: dancers have to run off and make quick costume changes, people are going from one side of the stage to the other, they have to find props, emergency costume repairs need to be made, etc. This can make for exciting and authentic images, just make sure you DO NOT GET IN ANYONE'S WAY EVER! What you're doing is important, but the show is still top priority.

— Shoot a lot, because you'll have a lot of duds. Metering is going to be hard because of the varying lighting conditions you'll encounter — the stage is bright, farther back in the wings it's dark, the shop and dressing room areas are a mixed bag. When I'm in the wings I love to shoot straight into the lights and let the lens flares fall where they may, but it's almost impossible to get a meter reading that makes sense, so just take your best guess and then bracket!

A few seasons ago I shot an entire performance of “Giselle” almost entirely from the wings, and I just threw a bunch of those photos into a Flickr album in the hope that it will get you enthused about this opportunity:

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmKVYZzH

Final thought: Everything you think you know about ballet is probably wrong! Let go of your preconceptions and see what's there!
This is amazingly helpful. Thank you!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #18
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Google alexey brodovitch ballet photos, they’re very nice and unconventional (a mentor of Robert frank)
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #19
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link in post 9
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #20
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Originally Posted by froyd View Post
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Ha. Oops. They’re great aren’t they?
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajtruhan View Post
Google alexey brodovitch ballet photos, they’re very nice and unconventional (a mentor of Robert frank)
He was ahead of Frank. He was ahead of everybody. Too bad all the art boards for his book got burned up, so it's impossible to produce a facsimile edition.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger9 View Post
Sorry, I had to jump in here because ballet and modern dance are practically the ONLY things I photograph! (Yeah, the fact that I'm the marketing director of a professional ballet company has something to do with that, but I was doing it a long time before that!)

The main things I want to do are tell you not to worry and to assure you that you're going to have a wonderful opportunity! The best thing you can do is put away all your preconceptions and get ready to be an alert, astute observer. A few specifics:

— The equipment you have is PERFECT for photographing a dance performance from backstage and in the wings. I can't think of a better setup than a rangefinder camera and the lenses you've got. (Technically, ‘backstage’ can mean everywhere in the working end of the theater, including dressing-room area, costume shop, etc., while the ‘wings’ are the draped areas at either side of the actual stage. Both areas offer lots of great photo opportunities.)

— Don't worry about showing what the performance looks like from the house... if people want to see that, they can buy a ticket! You're getting the opportunity to show a side of a performance that most people DON'T see. No 300mm lens required!

— Don't worry about anticipating what the company might want. Presumably, the fact that you've been granted backstage access (that's a big deal; be proud!) means they're interested in what YOU observe.

— Even though you've got permission, it's a REALLY good idea to find a few moments you can talk with the stage manager before you get started. The stage manager is the boss of everything that happens backstage. Of particular importance, s/he will be able to tell you areas that it’s important to stay out of (because of the dangers of moving scenery, flying bodies, etc.) and where you can stand without being visible from the house.

— During the performance, things move very fast backstage: dancers have to run off and make quick costume changes, people are going from one side of the stage to the other, they have to find props, emergency costume repairs need to be made, etc. This can make for exciting and authentic images, just make sure you DO NOT GET IN ANYONE'S WAY EVER! What you're doing is important, but the show is still top priority.

— Shoot a lot, because you'll have a lot of duds. Metering is going to be hard because of the varying lighting conditions you'll encounter — the stage is bright, farther back in the wings it's dark, the shop and dressing room areas are a mixed bag. When I'm in the wings I love to shoot straight into the lights and let the lens flares fall where they may, but it's almost impossible to get a meter reading that makes sense, so just take your best guess and then bracket!

A few seasons ago I shot an entire performance of “Giselle” almost entirely from the wings, and I just threw a bunch of those photos into a Flickr album in the hope that it will get you enthused about this opportunity:

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmKVYZzH

Final thought: Everything you think you know about ballet is probably wrong! Let go of your preconceptions and see what's there!
Having spent several years on the road with professional dance companies I can tell you that Ranger9’s above post is 100% right on the money! The only thing I can possibly think to add is that a very big part of dance lighting is sidelight, which, if you’re shooting from the wings, will be at eye level and pointing right at you. One of the ways I dealt with that was to try to shoot when the dancers were between me and the opposite lights - not always so easy.... they move around a lot! Also, those sidelights can be pretty blinding at times making it easy, as Ranger9 points out, to get flattened by a 95lb ballerina speeding offstage for a costume change so stay aware of your surroundings. Most importantly, have fun!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
Backstage? Are you shooting "Behind the Scenes" photos?

Those lenses will be mostly worthless for shooting ballet actually happening. You'll want an 80-200mm f/2.8 and maybe a 300mm f/2.8 . . .
I've never shot ballet, nor done stage photography. So you can take this with a grain of salt. But I will say I am surprised by the recommendation for an 80-200 or a 300. Somehow I can't imagine trying to manage such long and heavy lenses in such a rapidly changing situation. No one would ever ask me to do this; but if they did, I would feel comfortable having my 35mm lens along, and would probably try to use it. I think I'd try to use the 50 as well. A nice fast 35 or 50 seems good for the purpose. I guess I wouldn't rule out having a 75mm or 90mm Summicron along, but I could see myself deciding, the hell with lens changing, it's all I can do to keep up with one lens. I find myself wondering how Alfred Eisenstadt would have handled this assignment: would he have used more than one or two lenses? Maybe two, on two bodies. But no more, I suspect. I think He'd keep it simple.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCSmith View Post
Have you done it? Any tips? I will have a 50, a 90, and a 21, and I will be backstage.
You've got the perfect setup as far as equipment goes so just get in there with some fast film and have a ball. It's good that you'll have some time before the performance starts to get acclimated and perhaps introduce yourself so the performers aren't unnerved by the photography when they need to focus.

For the past few years I've been photographing friends as they rehearse and perform modern dance and it's been a ball, using a Holga, Hasselblad, 35mm wide angles, telephoto, whatever.

It's dance, and dance is good. You can't go wrong.

Have fun!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #25
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In reverse order of importance: lovely shot Corran; trust your own skill LC, and the 50; and wow Ranger9 blowing us all out of the water. Sounds spot on.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #26
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I've never shot ballet, nor done stage photography. So you can take this with a grain of salt. But I will say I am surprised by the recommendation for an 80-200 or a 300. Somehow I can't imagine trying to manage such long and heavy lenses in such a rapidly changing situation. No one would ever ask me to do this; but if they did, I would feel comfortable having my 35mm lens along, and would probably try to use it. I think I'd try to use the 50 as well. A nice fast 35 or 50 seems good for the purpose. I guess I wouldn't rule out having a 75mm or 90mm Summicron along, but I could see myself deciding, the hell with lens changing, it's all I can do to keep up with one lens. I find myself wondering how Alfred Eisenstadt would have handled this assignment: would he have used more than one or two lenses? Maybe two, on two bodies. But no more, I suspect. I think He'd keep it simple.
Let me reiterate that this is in MY experience, where the intent was to get good images of the ballet/musical happening and I was to not disturb the performance in any way.

My standard was D800 and D700 with 80-200 and 300 as stated, with a 50 f/1.4 on occasion. The 50mm would get the entire stage. I was behind the audience.

You can use whatever to make images to your liking, but this was my task. BTW, I have also fooled around shooting Fujifilm "Instant" 3200 on a modified Polaroid 900 during an opera production. There are no limits to how silly you can go, if you want to do it a certain way. "Behind the scenes" images are a whole different beast, but I was under the impression at first that the intent was images of the performance.

Here's a shot from the aforementioned digital. Didn't have time to post earlier:



Oh! I found the Fuji "negative" from that opera I mentioned:

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #27
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Originally Posted by Corran View Post

Oh! I found the Fuji "negative" from that opera I mentioned:

That is an outstanding portrait. Beautiful.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #28
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Yup, my advice was specifically because the OP said he was going to be shooting backstage. For front-of-house photography (pictures taken from or behind the public seating area) the lens setup you described is exactly what a lot of professionals use. (I use shorter lenses because I photograph during rehearsals and can get closer to the stage and move around as needed, but if you're in a fixed location a zoom lens is very helpful, as you suggested.) If people find this thread later looking for stage photography advice, I think we've got all the bases covered!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #29
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Same here. I was visualizing shooting from the wings, across the width of the stage.
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