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Several new cheap LF cameras
Old 08-04-2018   #1
HHPhoto
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Several new cheap LF cameras

Hi,

looks like there is a new and strong momentum in establishing new but cheap Large Format cameras:
First has been the Intrepid project:
https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-camera

Then the Chroma Camera was introduced:
http://chroma.camera/

Just recently the Standard 3D printed camera was successfully financed on Kickstarter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...era?ref=4utxpj

And another 3D printed cheap LF camera:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...5-field-camera

Cheers, Jan
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Old 08-04-2018   #2
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Hideous hipster gear.

I'll happily eat ramen for a year to afford me a sturdy and genuinely beautiful mahogany-and-brass camera.
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Old 08-04-2018   #3
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Pity about the price of film holders, especially larger than 4x5 inch.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #4
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been following this modern day Ansel Adams on youtube. he uses large format, intrepid among other gear.

large format lens prices no doubt will jump, as the medium becomes more popular.
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Old 08-04-2018   #5
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. . . .large format lens prices no doubt will jump, as the medium becomes more popular.
Maybe. But I doubt they'll jump much, as there are SO MANY available. I don't even know how many I have.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #6
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Too many great LF cameras available cheap to consider these.
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Old 08-04-2018   #7
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Originally Posted by johannielscom View Post
Hideous hipster gear.
Are hipsters even a thing anymore... and what is wrong with people making new cameras?
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Old 08-04-2018   #8
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I'm a cynical old fogey and always get suspicious when bandwagons spring up. Seems that "Kickstarters" have realized they can rake in the bucks by creating new Large Format Camera Projects.

Wouldn't be so suspicious if they were actually selling cameras, but creating these fund raising "projects" always seems like a scam to me.

But again, I'm just an old fogey.

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Old 08-04-2018   #9
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I have a studio basement in my home filled with Sinar Norma and Plaubel LF cameras. They were not THAT expensive, I have bought them for good prices over time.

If these are truly sturdy (and hold up well) they might be viable. But eek they are hideous!
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Old 08-04-2018   #10
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Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
I'm a cynical old fogey and always get suspicious when bandwagons spring up. Seems that "Kickstarters" have realized they can rake in the bucks by creating new Large Format Camera Projects.

Wouldn't be so suspicious if they were actually selling cameras, but creating these fund raising "projects" always seems like a scam to me.

But again, I'm just an old fogey.

Best,
-Tim
I really don't think these are scams Tim, (even though they may not be a wise purchase considering available used gear). Most seem to be over enthusiastic young folks who really believe they have a great idea and that other folks might feel the same. I also don't think they 'rake in the bucks' as you say. I would not be surprised if most creators have to spend a considerable amount of their own funds to start or especially, to complete a project.
Again, my comment is not about the wisdom of backing these projects.
That decision, yes or no, is the responsibility of the backers themselves.

Oh, by the way, I'm an old fogey myself, staring down 70 now.
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Old 08-04-2018   #11
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I opened all four links. Only one of them has price tag clearly visible and normal shop page.
Another three is too new way of buying to me. I was not able to find the price.
OP is superior on skills to determine that all four are cheap.
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Old 08-04-2018   #12
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Too many of these nowadays, not sure how many the market really needs. Obviously they are super easy and relatively cheap to make so I guess I see the draw but it is like they are unaware of how much competition there is.
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Old 08-04-2018   #13
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I like the idea of cheep plastic 3D printed cams..
Always wanted a Walker 8x10..
Waterproof..
If you break it..just do another part yourself..or order direct..
Now for the film holders..
And an 11x14 and 7x17 and up..would really be something!
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Old 08-04-2018   #14
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The Intrepid cameras are very well made, high quality birch plywood and properly made bellows. I have an 8x10 camera, it weighs only 2.15 kg and that matters out in the field. 400 others also bought an 8x10 camera from Intrepid; yes that's right, four hundred. And they have also sold several hundred of their 4x5 camera which is now available in a Mk 3 version. These people might be young, but they are serious people that love large format.
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Old 08-04-2018   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Are hipsters even a thing anymore... and what is wrong with people making new cameras?
Exactly.
No one is forced to buy these. They are additional supply and choices photographers can choose from. Nothing wrong at all with that.

And there is demand:
Intrepid has already built and sold several hundred units. They currently have already 7 fulltime workers producing the cameras.
Have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLHX_zmEMMw

The other three are already successfully funded with often more than double amount of funding as to what was needed. So enough photographers there who want such kind of cameras.

And I think about it also from another point of view: Small scale parts manufacturing and 3D printing: The experiences made in camera construction here in such projects can diffuse / can be transferred into other camera making and camera repair projects or companies in the future.
I would not be surprised if we see repair companies making spare parts for certain cameras in future with technologies like 3D printing.

Last edited by Skiff : 08-04-2018 at 09:54. Reason: Corrected the number of workers at Intrepid. Added the video link.
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Old 08-04-2018   #16
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They're still too expensive for what you get, but it's a step in the right direction. Always thought that LF cameras were absurdly overpriced, considering that you had to also purchase a lens and shutter, along w/ a ground glass. I mean, looki at a bike.....there are a heck of a lot of parts there, and some of them have to be made to close tolerances, but you can buy a decent one for $250 to $300. I just don't see why the cameras cost so much because there is little in the way of materials and they are very simply built. Their build tolerances are really not super tight either.

The last link with the colourful cameras made me smile, but they may be difficult to sell.

They need to get the 4x5 cameras down to a price point that is below a used Crown Graflex for me to be interested, or as interested as I get about LF. Once went landscape shooting w/ a neighbor that shot LF and took along a 4x5 camera, along with a TLR and MF folder to shoot comparison shots. Ended up preferring the MF photos when it was all said and done. They were sharper, and I could handhold the cameras and shoot a whole roll of film before I got the LF camera ready to shoot one shot on it's tripod.
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Old 08-04-2018   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Pity about the price of film holders, especially larger than 4x5 inch.

Cheers,

R.
Yes. I am currently shooting an 8x10 pinhole camera and the film holders are killing me in price.
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Old 08-04-2018   #18
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Would love to get me a large format camera and change things up.
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Old 08-04-2018   #19
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Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
They're still too expensive for what you get, but it's a step in the right direction. Always thought that LF cameras were absurdly overpriced, considering that you had to also purchase a lens and shutter, along w/ a ground glass. I mean, looki at a bike.....there are a heck of a lot of parts there, and some of them have to be made to close tolerances, but you can buy a decent one for $250 to $300. I just don't see why the cameras cost so much because there is little in the way of materials and they are very simply built. Their build tolerances are really not super tight either.

The last link with the colourful cameras made me smile, but they may be difficult to sell.

They need to get the 4x5 cameras down to a price point that is below a used Crown Graflex for me to be interested, or as interested as I get about LF. Once went landscape shooting w/ a neighbor that shot LF and took along a 4x5 camera, along with a TLR and MF folder to shoot comparison shots. Ended up preferring the MF photos when it was all said and done. They were sharper, and I could handhold the cameras and shoot a whole roll of film before I got the LF camera ready to shoot one shot on it's tripod.
Dear Steve,

Bicycles are made in very much larger numbers, for a vastly bigger market, with numerous bought-in parts. Most parts on most LF cameras are specific to those cameras, though there are exceptions: Cambo backs on Gandolfi Variant cameras, for example.

I fully take your point about medium format. I feel somewhat the same way myself: a 3x enlargement off Linhof 56x72mm "6x7" is the same size as a whole-plate contact print; often sharper; and tonally can be just as good. On the other hand, if you want an 8x10 inch negative for contact printing with alternative processes, you're going to need an 8x10 inch camera, or a reducing back on something even bigger.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #20
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im hoping for cheap ultra large format cameras: 7x17, 11x14, 16x20, 20x24. throw in whole plate while were at it. now that would be exciting.
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Old 08-04-2018   #21
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Yes. I am currently shooting an 8x10 pinhole camera and the film holders are killing me in price.
Dear Rick,

Quite. But why should they cost so much? They're simple enough to make. Just ask Steve...

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #22
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Sorry, but I have to correct myself (I've also added the correction in my posting above):
Intrepid has already 7 (!) fulltime workers and is producing the cameras in large batches.
Here is a video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLHX_zmEMMw

They plan further products and company growth.
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Old 08-04-2018   #23
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Originally Posted by michaelbialecki View Post
Would love to get me a large format camera and change things up.
Dear Michael,

But DON'T waste time with 4x5 inch. Go for something big enough to give you a decent contact print. My favourite is 5x7 inch/ 13x18 cm/ half plate, all of which fit in holders with the same external dimensions (i.e. fit the same cameras).

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #24
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Are hipsters even a thing anymore...
I'm not involved deep with the movement, but every time I photowalk on Queen street in Toronto I see it busy with personages exactly like these:
http://www.cbc.ca/22minutes/episodes...-meal-delivery

They are so abundant where, I'm not considering them as interesting people to photograph anymore. I see them as common folks.

In fact, then I switched to film, one ex weddings, studio photog, business owner and PJ from film only era called me as hipster. But my beard isn't this long, yet.
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Old 08-04-2018   #25
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im hoping for cheap ultra large format cameras: 7x17, 11x14, 16x20, 20x24. throw in whole plate while were at it. now that would be exciting.
Again, the price of film holders is the killer. Actually, so is the price of film. Then there's processing. My biggest camera is only 12x15 inch but it's a swine to handle, a bit like wet (and possibly live) fish.

Whole plate is only 6.5 x 8.5 inches, though: hardly ULF.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #26
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Are hipsters even a thing anymore... and what is wrong with people making new cameras?
Hipsters still being a thing: I dunno I'm not a hipster.

And it's more that I wonder, what is wrong with people making ugly new cameras?
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Old 08-04-2018   #27
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Originally Posted by johannielscom View Post
Hipsters still being a thing: I dunno I'm not a hipster.

And it's more that I wonder, what is wrong with people making ugly new cameras?
Or, to reverse the question, what is the advantage of people making ugly new cameras?

Personally I prefer my cameras to look like cameras and not Tonka toys, but hey, as long as people buy film to put in these cameras, I'm in favour.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #28
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Sorry, but I have to correct myself (I've also added the correction in my posting above):
Intrepid has already 7 (!) fulltime workers and is producing the cameras in large batches.
Here is a video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLHX_zmEMMw

They plan further products and company growth.
I've done a bit more research:
The team at Intrepid Camera is really very active: They will start also a film shop soon and even offer Fujichrome Velvia 50 in 4x5 sheets! As this outstanding film is currently only available in Japan in 4x5, this is really excellent news!
Here is the announcement:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl7739gl...trepidcameraco
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Old 08-04-2018   #29
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I'm not involved deep with the movement, but every time I photowalk on Queen street in Toronto I see it busy with personages exactly like these:
http://www.cbc.ca/22minutes/episodes...-meal-delivery

They are so abundant where, I'm not considering them as interesting people to photograph anymore. I see them as common folks.

In fact, then I switched to film, one ex weddings, studio photog, business owner and PJ from film only era called me as hipster. But my beard isn't this long, yet.
Yeah, I guess I meant... is making fun of hipsters a thing anymore.
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Old 08-04-2018   #30
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I've done a bit more research:
The team at Intrepid Camera is really very active: They will start also a film shop soon and even offer Fujichrome Velvia 50 in 4x5 sheets! As this outstanding film is currently only available in Japan in 4x5, this is really excellent news!
Here is the announcement:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl7739gl...trepidcameraco
Processing's going to be a bit of a bugger, though. I still have my Nova hand line but I'm not sure where else I could get 5x4 E6 processed within 200 miles.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #31
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Processing's going to be a bit of a bugger, though. I still have my Nova hand line but I'm not sure where else I could get 5x4 E6 processed within 200 miles.

Cheers,

R.
There are several very good options:
1. DIY.
It is extremely easy and very cheap using a JOBO processor (e.g. an older, used CPE-2(+) or the new CPE-3) and a Fuji, Tetenal or Bellini E6 home kit.
I do E6 by myself at home with a JOBO and it is even easier than doing perfect BW developing. And the costs are negligible.

2. Lab:
France: AFAIK here are also some French labs listed:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=137289

Or send to one of the best European E6 labs: They deliver perfect quality (outstanding QC and dip-and-dunk Refrema processing with two-bath fix), and are very fast (because they develop more than 100 E6 films every day, and send back the same day they've got the film).
The price is also quite low. And they do international business (and inside EU it is even much easier).
https://www.photostudio13.de/
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Old 08-04-2018   #32
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
There are several very good options:
1. DIY.
It is extremely easy and very cheap using a JOBO processor (e.g. an older, used CPE-2(+) or the new CPE-3) and a Fuji, Tetenal or Bellini E6 home kit.
I do E6 by myself at home with a JOBO and it is even easier than doing perfect BW developing. And the costs are negligible.

2. Lab:
France: AFAIK here are also some French labs listed:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=137289

Or send to one of the best European E6 labs: They deliver perfect quality (outstanding QC and dip-and-dunk Refrema processing with two-bath fix), and are very fast (because they develop more than 100 E6 films every day, and send back the same day they've got the film).
The price is also quite low. And they do international business (and inside EU it is even much easier).
https://www.photostudio13.de/
Yeah. I'm a bit over 200 miles from Paris and I have my own E6 hand line. As I say, on the basis of experience, processing is going to be a bit of a bugger.

Your point was?

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #33
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Yeah. I'm a bit over 200 miles from Paris and I have my own E6 hand line. As I say, on the basis of experience, processing is going to be a bit of a bugger.

Your point was?

Cheers,

R.
Sorry, my understanding was that you are looking for options to get your E6 4x5 sheets developed.
But if you have your own E6 line at home you're of course fine.
By the way, Tetenal has said that they will add a 1L kit to the current 2.5L kit this autumn.
So even more choices for E6 home kits in the future.
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Old 08-04-2018   #34
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Sorry, my understanding was that you are looking for options to get your E6 4x5 sheets developed.
But if you have your own E6 line at home you're of course fine.
By the way, Tetenal has said that they will add a 1L kit to the current 2.5L kit this autumn.
So even more choices for E6 home kits in the future.
Sorry I didn't make myself clearer.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #35
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Again, the price of film holders is the killer. Actually, so is the price of film. Then there's processing. My biggest camera is only 12x15 inch but it's a swine to handle, a bit like wet (and possibly live) fish.

Whole plate is only 6.5 x 8.5 inches, though: hardly ULF.

Cheers,

R.
I just threw in whole plate because I think it should be more widespread.

Chamonix film holders are high quality and well priced. A 16x20 film holder for $695 USD is reasonably accessible if you asked me.

Processing slide and color negative would be difficult, but you can't get either type of film in ultra large format anyways, so that's not a problem! Processing B&W in drums is a walk in the park comparatively.

The main bottleneck is the price and availability of cameras. There's a $5.6k Chamonix 16x20 on the auction site right now. That's a bit of a stretch. Maybe someone would like to trade in their Leica M10 for that.
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Old 08-04-2018   #36
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I just threw in whole plate because I think it should be more widespread.

Chamonix film holders are high quality and well priced. A 16x20 film holder for $695 USD is reasonably accessible if you asked me.

Processing slide and color negative would be difficult, but you can't get either type of film in ultra large format anyways, so that's not a problem! Processing B&W in drums is a walk in the park comparatively.

The main bottleneck is the price and availability of cameras. There's a $5.6k Chamonix 16x20 on the auction site right now. That's a bit of a stretch. Maybe someone would like to trade in their Leica M10 for that.
Or, as I said, a 3X enlargement off 56x72mm...

Also, I think that $695 for ONE film holder might deter quite a lot of people.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-04-2018   #37
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I opened all four links. Only one of them has price tag clearly visible and normal shop page.
Another three is too new way of buying to me. I was not able to find the price.
OP is superior on skills to determine that all four are cheap.

Hi Kostja,

Intrepid Camera has a regular website with shop and prices. See my original posting.
Chroma LF Camera: Has been a kickstarter project recently. Here are the prices:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...chnical-camera

The Standard 4x5 LF Camera: Also a Kickstarter project, but current, see prices:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...camera?lang=de

And the prices for the last one, Cameradactyl 4x5:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...camera?lang=de

Cheers, Jan
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Old 08-04-2018   #38
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Originally Posted by johannielscom View Post
And it's more that I wonder, what is wrong with people making ugly new cameras?
It's all a matter of taste, but I think the Intrepid, the Chroma and the Standard 4x5 are not at all ugly cameras.
Well, Cameradactyl 4x5 is probably a different case.......

Cheers, Jan
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Old 08-04-2018   #39
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Sorry, but I have to correct myself (I've also added the correction in my posting above):
Intrepid has already 7 (!) fulltime workers and is producing the cameras in large batches.
Here is a video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLHX_zmEMMw

They plan further products and company growth.
Thanks for that very interesting video.
Lots of new information for me.
A workforce of 7 workers after not even 3 years in operation. That's impressive.
To be profitable with such a workforce and at that given very low price level they probably have to sell more than 1.500 cameras p.a. in the future.
That is really a huge amount for Large Format!

Cheers, Jan
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Old 08-05-2018   #40
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Sounds like someone needs to start a Kickstarter for affordable film holders...
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