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Old 08-06-2019   #201
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Does the test pictures look bad or you typically don't like everything that made in China?
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Old 08-06-2019   #202
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I'd be more than happy with a Made in China lens on my M2 especially if it's as tempting as this lens. For the record I'd prefer a black finish but ultimately price and performance are more likely to be determinants for purchase.
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Old 08-06-2019   #203
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Didn't intend to offend anyone.

To me, Leica M cameras are the pinnacle of German precision engineering. As such, a combination of an expensive mechanical masterpiece with a blatant copy of a lens designed by Leica is inconsistent. But apparently, that's just me.

I am aware that Leica has teamed up with the Chinese company Huawei and is helping design lenses for their phones. That is a mistake, in my opinion, in the context of Huawei's documented ties to the Chinese government and military.

I am not anti-Chinese, frequently purchase Chinese-made products, and I have been in China on wonderful trips where I appreciated China's amazing culture and people. Yes, Huss, my iPhone is made in China but this is only a consumer device that I'll only keep for 3 years and than get another one, and I am not emotionally attached to this device at all. That is the difference between my Chinese-made phone and a Leica, which I experience on an emotional level more than on an intellectual level. I'm just having a hard time appreciating a blatant copy of lens designed by Leica. But again, that's just me.
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Old 08-06-2019   #204
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Originally Posted by giganova View Post
I'm just having a hard time appreciating a blatant copy of lens designed by Leica. But again, that's just me.
But for photography, it could be useful no?
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Old 08-06-2019   #205
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But for photography, it could be useful no?
Yes, absolutely.
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Old 08-06-2019   #206
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Originally Posted by giganova View Post
Didn't intend to offend anyone.

To me, Leica M cameras are the pinnacle of German precision engineering. As such, a combination of an expensive mechanical masterpiece with a blatant copy of a lens designed by Leica is inconsistent. But apparently, that's just me.

I am aware that Leica has teamed up with the Chinese company Huawei and is helping design lenses for their phones. That is a mistake, in my opinion, in the context of Huawei's documented ties to the Chinese government and military, and Huawei's efforts to build North Korea's wireless cell phone network, thereby supporting a brutal dictator regime.

I am not anti-Chinese, frequently purchase Chinese-made products, and I have been in China on wonderful trips where I appreciated China's amazing culture and people. Yes, Huss, my iPhone is made in China but this is only a consumer device that I'll only keep for 3 years and than get another one, and I am not emotionally attached to this device at all. That is the difference between my Chinese-made phone and a Leica, which I experience on an emotional level more than on an intellectual level. I'm just having a hard time appreciating a blatant copy of lens designed by Leica. But again, that's just me.
When I first got into Leicas I also thought that I had to use only Leica lenses. Then I tried a whole bunch of other lenses in all price ranges and found I really enjoyed using those too, and also was very happy with those results.
I'm glad I don't limit my M usage to only Leica lenses.
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Old 08-06-2019   #207
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what is that?

Sue someone for passing off your product or infringing your IP - and you might publicise the product, which might otherwise have disappeared into obscurity!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
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Old 08-06-2019   #208
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Sue someone for passing off your product or infringing your IP - and you might publicise the product, which might otherwise have disappeared into obscurity!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
It sounds like a serious potential problem. I will inform the maker regarding the issue you mentioned. Thank you!

Regards,
Kevin
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Old 08-06-2019   #209
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by giganova View Post
Didn't intend to offend anyone.

To me, Leica M cameras are the pinnacle of German precision engineering. As such, a combination of an expensive mechanical masterpiece with a blatant copy of a lens designed by Leica is inconsistent. But apparently, that's just me.

I am aware that Leica has teamed up with the Chinese company Huawei and is helping design lenses for their phones. That is a mistake, in my opinion, in the context of Huawei's documented ties to the Chinese government and military, and Huawei's efforts to build North Korea's wireless cell phone network, thereby supporting a brutal dictator regime.

I am not anti-Chinese, frequently purchase Chinese-made products, and I have been in China on wonderful trips where I appreciated China's amazing culture and people. Yes, Huss, my iPhone is made in China but this is only a consumer device that I'll only keep for 3 years and than get another one, and I am not emotionally attached to this device at all. That is the difference between my Chinese-made phone and a Leica, which I experience on an emotional level more than on an intellectual level. I'm just having a hard time appreciating a blatant copy of lens designed by Leica. But again, that's just me.
"Copying is the highest form of flattery".

Copying (aka reverse engineering) is a actually a form of learning. After the war, the Japanese started producing cameras and lenses which were basically copies of German designs.

Even Leica's famous lens - Elmar 5cm, can trace its root in Zeiss's Tessar design.

I'm sure when the Chinese try to copy this 8-E summicron, they do it with respect and good intention. If it is a good thing for the photography community fans without hurting Leica, shall we support it cheerfully instead of getting so sour about it.
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Old 08-06-2019   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yossi View Post
"Copying is the highest form of flattery".

Copying (aka reverse engineering) is a actually a form of learning. After the war, the Japanese started producing cameras and lenses which were basically copies of German designs.

Even Leica's famous lens - Elmar 5cm, can trace its root in Zeiss's Tessar design.

I'm sure when the Chinese try to copy this 8-E summicron, they do it with respect and good intention. If it is a good thing for the photography community fans without hurting Leica, shall we support it cheerfully instead of getting so sour about it.
Thank you for your support. The maker is a Leica enthusiast, which he does treating this project sincerely and doing it with respect and good intention. It took him two years to get to this point.

Regards,
Kevin
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Old 08-06-2019   #211
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[Test photos]


Aperture: f/2.0 wide open

Leica M240 + Leica Summicron 35mm f2 Eight Element Replica Prototype

NOTE: DNG file convert to jpg file without any post editing



[test samples] Leica Summicron 35mm f2 Eight Element Replica Prototype made in China by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

[test samples] Leica Summicron 35mm f2 Eight Element Replica Prototype made in China by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

[test samples] Leica Summicron 35mm f2 Eight Element Replica Prototype made in China by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

[test samples] Leica Summicron 35mm f2 Eight Element Replica Prototype made in China by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
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Old 08-06-2019   #212
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Patent system is set up as a quid pro quo (exchange) between an inventor and the government. A disclosure to the public by the inventor in exchange for a limited time (~20years) monopoly granted by the government. Not perpetual protection over this technical knowledge. The remaking of the 8 element is precisely what the patent system is designed for - allowing public use of one or a group of patents past expiry (assuming Leica had patents covering the 8 element back in the 50s/60s).

Trademarks/passing off actions are typically related to the brand(s) or associated goodwill of the company or product. In this case - the trademark "Leica", "Summicron", "8 element", etc. It has no coverage over the way the lens elements are configured, the infinity lock, the materials used, etc.

EDIT: Sign me up for a black paint version pls!
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Old 08-06-2019   #213
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Please add me to list black paint or chrome please!
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Old 08-06-2019   #214
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Nature abhors a vacuum...
If Leica isnt going to reissue it..
Someone else will..
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Old 08-06-2019   #215
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Nature abhors a vacuum...
If Leica isnt going to reissue it..
Someone else will..
I wonder who?
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Old 08-06-2019   #216
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I think it's wonderful that someone should try to recreate an original lens, long out of patent, with such evident attention to detail and obviously superb results and at a sensible price.

Keep at it and good luck (just re-register my interest in a black one!)
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Old 08-06-2019   #217
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I think it's wonderful that someone should try to recreate an original lens, long out of patent, with such evident attention to detail and obviously superb results and at a sensible price.

Keep at it and good luck (just re-register my interest in a black one!)
A big +1 to all of those sentiments, great stuff!
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Old 08-07-2019   #218
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No interest in buying but following along out of curiosity! The rendering in the samples looks really nice
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Old 08-07-2019   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
Thank you for your support. The maker is a Leica enthusiast, which he does treating this project sincerely and doing it with respect and good intention. It took him two years to get to this point.

Regards,
Kevin
Kevin ni hao.

I really like those wide-open test images. Count me in for a black paint 8E clone. xie xie!
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Old 08-07-2019   #220
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This looks like a replica "done right" i.e. with a lot of care and attention to detail. Respect to the maker.

I am highly interested in a black paint M-mount and even more interested in a black paint LTM mount.

Quote:
The only thing he worried is the flint glass that been used in this replica lens. He wants to make this lens at least 99% the same as the original one, so he has to use the flint glass. But flint glass is banned by Europe.
A quick question about the flint glass - is it very soft and on the front element?... I understand that many early Leitz lenses where prone to scratching the front lens.

Regards.
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Old 08-07-2019   #221
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In the not so far future everything will be made in China if we like it or not.
The world is changing fast. China's production costs have been steadily on the increase -the US/China trade dispute is also having an impact, and many production platforms are now moving to other, cheaper destinations...i.e. to Vietnam, Cambodia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc...
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Old 08-07-2019   #222
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lovely! I admire the involvement.

why not just brand it 8seagulls or smth and offer a "third party replacement part for Leica Summicron" front ring?
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Old 08-07-2019   #223
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lovely! I admire the involvement.

why not just brand it 8seagulls or smth and offer a "third party replacement part for Leica Summicron" front ring?
arhh replica is ok, put a fake ring is fraud
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Old 08-07-2019   #224
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I agree with you, the made in China followed the route of Made in Japan. initially they are poorly made cheapo, but after many years forced transfer technology or whatever the experience they gained during the manufacturing, the quality has improved, such as 7 artisans lenses.
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Old 08-07-2019   #225
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Originally Posted by yossi View Post
Kevin ni hao.

I really like those wide-open test images. Count me in for a black paint 8E clone. xie xie!
Ni hao Yossi,

Yes I will! xie xie!

Best,
Kevin
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Old 08-07-2019   #226
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I agree with you, the made in China followed the route of Made in Japan. initially they are poorly made cheapio, but after many years forced transfer technology or whatever the experience they gained during the manufacturing, the quality has improved, such as 7 artisans lenses.
Thank you for spreading the positive.
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Old 08-07-2019   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eckhardf View Post

A quick question about the flint glass - is it very soft and on the front element?... I understand that many early Leitz lenses where prone to scratching the front lens.

Regards.
Regarding your question, I just got an answer from the maker. The first batch of the production will use the same material, the same coating, and the same glass. If the original one is prone to scratch, then the replica will have the same characteristics.

So, the replica will have all the characteristics that the original has, which include good or bad. Wish this answered your question.
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Old 08-07-2019   #228
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Re: coatings, as I understand it the front and rear surfaces on 60s era Leitz lenses were hard coated and the internal surfaces were soft coated. My own 50mm Summicron rigid has perfect coatings on the front and rear surfaces which surprised me considering all the reports of soft coatings on that particular lens.
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Old 08-07-2019   #229
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Please also count me in for one in black paint too!
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Old 08-07-2019   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbielikowski View Post
lovely! I admire the involvement.

why not just brand it 8seagulls or smth and offer a "third party replacement part for Leica Summicron" front ring?

Front ring design by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

This is the design of the first version front ring.

Kevin
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Old 08-07-2019   #231
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Please do make it 6-bit coded, count me in for black version
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Old 08-07-2019   #232
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I'm enjoying this thread...I have an original Wetzler 1:2/35 Summicron 8 element purchased at a camera store on consignment up in Santa Fe .They wanted $250.00 but all I had was $235.00. (cash)They called the owner and he ok'd the deal.This was 1997, I often wonder if Chris was working and going to school up there back then. Anyway if you guys can get a copy go for it. The lens is superb. Regards,Bill. ps I didn't know anything about it,I just wanted a 35 for my M2......I lucked out
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Old 08-07-2019   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
Front ring design by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

This is the design of the first version front ring.

Kevin
That's not the original typeface, but the current one looks great so I don't mind. It'll match the newer bodies perfectly.
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Old 08-07-2019   #234
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Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
Front ring design by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

This is the design of the first version front ring.

Kevin
Please froward to the maker, consider to remove Z1, it just does not fit there well for the whole design of the ring. Maybe he should use Zenith for the Z
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Old 08-07-2019   #235
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Please froward to the maker, consider to remove Z1, it just does not fit there well for the whole design of the ring. Maybe he should use Zenith for the Z
Thank you for your comment. I will forward your opinion to the maker.

Regards,
Kevin
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Old 08-07-2019   #236
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Please do make it 6-bit coded, count me in for black version
Sorry. The first batch will not have 6-bit version. Because the original one did not has 6-bit either. But the later batch will provide this option for you.
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Infinity Focus Performance Comparison: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph
Old 08-07-2019   #237
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Infinity Focus Performance Comparison: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph

Infinity Focus Performance Comparison: 8-element Replica VS 35mm f2 Summicron-M Asph

Leica M9

Aperture: F/2 wide open



Note: The weather is a little bit hazy... 35mm f2 ASPH is 6-bit coded. Therefore, its vignetting is automatically corrected on the digital M camera.



Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr

Infinity Performance: 8-element Replica VS 35/2 Asph by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
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Old 08-07-2019   #238
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This is great because it provides access to quality of a photographic tool that was out of the budget of many, previously. I'm quite excited. As long as the it performs like the Summicron it is copying and sold at a fraction of the price, this is a win for photography. If successful maybe we can get Summilux and Noctilux-quality alternatives at much lower prices.

I don't mind "Made In China" at all if the quality holds up.

I also understand that there is "pride in ownership" in Leica products but IMO later on this will be more due to history and legacy rather than technical and mechanical quality. Chinese manufacturing capability will catch up.

Bravo to the makers of this lens!
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Old 08-08-2019   #239
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It will be a difficult choice for some people here; the latest CV Ultron 35/2 versus the copy of the first version Summicron 35/2 (8 elements).

Similar cost. Great lenses.

Which lens is a better buy? Why?
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Old 08-08-2019   #240
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Raid. I was thinking the same thing.
I think I might lean toward this summicron replica
...at least I do today.
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