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Box cameras
Old 12-19-2016   #1
seany65
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Box cameras

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I can't think of anywhere particularly suitable.

I'm thinking about getting a 'Box' camera and was wondering if anyone knows anything about ones that take 120 film, maybe have doublet lenses, have 2 or 3 apertures and maybe a couple of shutter speeds?

Any help would be much appreciated.
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Old 12-19-2016   #2
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I have a few that qualify as box cameras, though only one that fits your description - the Ilford Craftsman. Not sure about the lens, but I'm guessing it's a meniscus rather than a doublet. 6x6, two speeds (1/25 and 1/75, plus bulb) and two apertures (f/9 and f/18), plus infinitely variable focusing from 4 feet to infinity. Nice bright focusing glass with a pop-up hood. Bakelite body. Definitely on the high end of box cameras. The lens has an interesting character to it, especially at f/9. A sample:



My others are much simpler. The usual single speed, single aperture, fixed focus type things. They can be a lot of fun to use, and the results are often better than expected. I reversed the lens on my Brownie Hawkeye because the photos with it in the proper orientation were too good for what I wanted from a cheap box camera.
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Old 12-19-2016   #3
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What do you want to do with it?

I have a Kodak that my late father bought in the 1940s.

It's much more use as a curio or sentimental souvenir than as a camera.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-19-2016   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seany65 View Post
Wasn't sure where to put this, but I can't think of anywhere particularly suitable.

I'm thinking about getting a 'Box' camera and was wondering if anyone knows anything about ones that take 120 film, maybe have doublet lenses, have 2 or 3 apertures and maybe a couple of shutter speeds?

Any help would be much appreciated.
You're not really going to find anything like that, that is still a box-form camera, unless you step up to the entry level (or pseudo) TLR bracket.

For actual box cameras, the Zeiss Ikon Box Tengor series does offer selectable apertures and focus zones and are quite well made for box cameras. The Ensign "All Distance" box cameras also have similar flexibility.

If you want actual, variable shutter speeds, something like a Reflekta or Ricohflex TLR is about as basic/boxy as you're going to find. If you want a very simple 120 camera that's not shaped like a box, there are plenty, like the Koroll cameras, Isolas, and many others.
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Old 12-19-2016   #5
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Lubitel?

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-19-2016   #6
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There are quite a few European box cameras that offer 120 film format and more than just fixed focus, aperture and speed. The Frontar lens on the Box-Tengor is nice, though the low, fixed speed is difficult for me to hand hold. You might consider the Agfa Clack and the Vredeborch Felica; I think they both have meniscus lenses, but they can produce quite nice images.
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Old 12-19-2016   #7
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Maybe Agfa Synchro Box? It has two aperture settings (8 and 16), one filter (yellow) and one shutter speed plus "B".



Here are a few pictures taken with it.




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Old 12-19-2016   #8
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You might like to look here
https://www.flickr.com/groups/box-tengor_gallery/pool/
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Old 12-19-2016   #9
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I haven't put film through a box in a while....


Kodak No.2 Mod. F
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Old 12-19-2016   #10
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Rick has beaten me in suggesting the No 2 Model F Brownie - only one shutter speed and a meniscus lens, but three Waterhouse stops giving a degree of control over depth of field.

The results far outweigh the camer and, sadly, my skill.

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Old 12-19-2016   #11
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Thanks for the replies and the suggestions.

@O2pilot, I've just done a quick google on your ilford Craftsman. Apparently it's got 2 cemented components in the lens, and the other features are as you said. It was apparently issued to police forces at crime scene investigations! Well, according to http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Craftsman.html

That pic you posted does actually look quite good, considering the camera and it's age.

@tunalegs, I have seen a couple of descriptions which say the lens is a doublet or has 2 cemented elements, and I've seen some which show that there a 2 or 3 apertures and even some with a couple of different speeds and even with adjustable focusing (although on at least one camera this means moving the lens in camera). So I'm sure with a bit of hunting I'll be able to find a couple that I'd consider. I really just looking for one on which I can use a speed quicker than "too ruddy slow" such as 1/25th-1/30th, which I've just found out box tengors have.

I have been considering TLR's as well, but I'd be getting one as well as a box camera, if I go for a boxy, that is.

@Roger Hicks, I'm not actually sure what I want to do with it really, apart from take some 'snaps'. On the other hand, I think the challlenge of trying to get some decent pics out of one would be interesting. I have just been considering a lubitel, but many of the pics I've seen seem to have some vignetting and I think a camera made as 'late' as a 166U or 166B shouldn't really have that as a 'feature'.

@mconnealy, Thanks for the suggestion of the agfa 'clack' (named after the sound of the shutter?) and the other one, but I'm not really looking for anything of that sort of shape. I suppose that they aren't different enough from fed 2's and ricoh 500gx's etc. which I've already got.

@p. giannikis, An agfa? Possibly. Thanks.

@citizen99, Thanks for the link. There are some good pics on that site.

@Mr. Flibble, That pic is certainly better than Holgas seem able to produce. At that size, yuo wouldn't know it had come from such an old camera.

@Muggins, I take it you think that you're a bit of a talentless bozo as well eh? Perhaps we ought to form a club?
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Old 12-19-2016   #12
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Another vote for the humble Kodak No.2 Model F. Nice results for a meniscus lens. The apertures are 16, 22 and 32 from what I could research.

This is a full width crop

Kodak Brownie No2 Model F_047 by lynnb's snaps, on Flickr
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Old 12-19-2016   #13
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Thanks for the link lynnb. Some good pics there on the first page.

Anyway, from the pic you've just posted here, I'm sorry, but you can't join the "Talentless Bozo's" club.
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Old 12-19-2016   #14
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The Zeiss Tengors and Baldurs (a simpler Tengor) can be nice box cameras if you accept the inherent limitations of the lens. The few I've had over the years were a bit soft overall, as compared to other manufacturer's box cameras that are somewhat sharp in the middle but very soft in the corners.

Personally, I'd recommend just picking up whatever crosses your patch. Most of the fun with box cameras is trying them out just to see what they can do. I have been impressed with many different Kodak box cameras, even the bottom-of-the-line Kodak No.2 Hawkeye. However, Voigtlander made several models of their Brillant line that have adjustable shutter speeds, focus, nicer lenses, etc.

I made these images several years back with a nasty old 1930's Box Tengor. It was rusty, had peeled back covering, exposed brass on the winding knob, etc., but the lens was clean and all of the mechanics worked properly.







This one is from the Zeiss Baldur:



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Old 12-19-2016   #15
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I'll start a new club for "Aspiring to be Talentless and Generally Clueless Bozos" then. So there.
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Old 12-19-2016   #16
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Hunter Gilbert box camera

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gilbert
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Old 12-19-2016   #17
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I forgot about the Agfa Ansco Shur-Shot Special, which uses a swing-in diopter lens to achieve two focus zones. I remember the results being quite good.

BTW, the shutter speed has never been a big bother for me when using boxes, the two biggest frustrations I've had are lack of control over the focus, and terrible viewfinders. A box with large brilliant finder is much more fun to use than something with minuscule, dim, ground glass finders. Anything that has two or three focus zones is far more fun than something with fixed focus too.

Some box cameras can use push-in or push-on filters and "portrait lenses", if you find the right sizes. But these are often much rarer than the cameras. This is less convenient than having a camera with zone focusing, but still expands the usability of an old box greatly.
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Old 12-19-2016   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02Pilot View Post
I have a few that qualify as box cameras, though only one that fits your description - the Ilford Craftsman. Not sure about the lens, but I'm guessing it's a meniscus rather than a doublet. 6x6, two speeds (1/25 and 1/75, plus bulb) and two apertures (f/9 and f/18), plus infinitely variable focusing from 4 feet to infinity. Nice bright focusing glass with a pop-up hood. Bakelite body. Definitely on the high end of box cameras. The lens has an interesting character to it, especially at f/9. A sample:



My others are much simpler. The usual single speed, single aperture, fixed focus type things. They can be a lot of fun to use, and the results are often better than expected. I reversed the lens on my Brownie Hawkeye because the photos with it in the proper orientation were too good for what I wanted from a cheap box camera.
What a beautiful image!
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Old 12-19-2016   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnb View Post

Kodak Brownie No2 Model F_047 by lynnb's snaps, on Flickr
Just wow!
Wonderful
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Old 12-20-2016   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darya151 View Post
What a beautiful image!
Thank you, Darya.
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What???
Old 12-20-2016   #21
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What???

Quote:
Originally Posted by seany65 View Post
Thanks for the link lynnb. Some good pics there on the first page.

Anyway, from the pic you've just posted here, I'm sorry, but you can't join the "Talentless Bozo's" club.
As a member of good standing in the "T B Club" I can say any and all comers are welcome to join.
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Old 12-21-2016   #22
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many thanks Panagiotis
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Old 12-21-2016   #23
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@lynnb, Hmmm, It seems that your pics are too good for you to be an actual member of the "Talentless Bozo's club", but I suppose you could be our secretary, considering you have thanked someone called 'Panagiotis' for complimenting the photo you posted, even though there's no member of that name.

@greyscale, somehow, that Hunter-Gilbert box camera looks very much like a modern designer's 're-imagining' of a box camera, that would sell for a ridiculous amount of money.

@randolph45, Huh? You'd let in just 'anyone', even if they ain't "Talentless Bozo's"?
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Old 12-23-2016   #24
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Add another vote for the Kodak Brownie No.2 model f.


It does surprisingly well.
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Old 12-23-2016   #25
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Nothing has made me want a box camera until I saw O2 Pilot's photo near the top. I am now perplexed.
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Old 12-26-2016   #26
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I've got a few questions for who use box brownie No.2 model f's:

What film speeds do you use?

Do you process your own films?

I don't have the facilities to process/print my own films so is there any point me getting one if I can only get them done commercially?
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Old 12-26-2016   #27
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100ASA for "average" days. 400ASA for cloudy days.

If you're photographing under bright sun, or photographing a bright object, use the middle aperture.

The smallest aperture, counter intuitive as it may seem, is for time exposures. It's easier to mess up a two second exposure than it is to mess up a five second exposure, so you use the smallest aperture to make counting easier and reduce mistakes.

If you shoot color film, any good shop should be able to process it cheaply, most places charge a lot more to process B&W. Do check that they can print or scan 6x9 as it is not a common format these days.
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Old 12-26-2016   #28
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The timing of this thread is interesting, a friend was recently given a Brownie Target 620 by his parents, he asked if I could help him run some film through it, so I dug out a 1916 Brownie Junior. We're going to go out this week and see what we can do.
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Old 12-26-2016   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrod View Post
Nothing has made me want a box camera until I saw O2 Pilot's photo near the top. I am now perplexed.
Thanks, Johnny. The nice thing is that they're almost all cheap, so you can grab one to try out with very little financial risk.
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Old 12-26-2016   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seany65 View Post
I've got a few questions for who use box brownie No.2 model f's:

What film speeds do you use?

Do you process your own films?

I don't have the facilities to process/print my own films so is there any point me getting one if I can only get them done commercially?
Back in the day, a lot of people used Kodak Verichrome Pan which you could buy at your local chemist/drugstore in 120 or 620, rated EI 80 but sometimes rated at 125.

I use slow speed (ISO 100-200) film mostly because I use the camera in bright light. Shutter speed is about 1/50.

You don't need a darkroom to process your own bw films, only a changing bag and a daylight tank like a Paterson. Most people scan their negs - which you can do with a digital camera at a pinch.

If you wanted to you could make 6x9cm contact prints in your laundry or other dark room. A bit on the small side, but that's what we used to do when I was young and the Brownie was the family camera.
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Old 12-27-2016   #31
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I thought I'd throw in this old result from the aforementioned Agfa Ansco Shur Shot Special:



These were taken in half frame mode, so in effect you get a longer lens. One image was made with the close focus setting, and one was made with the normal focus setting. Images are slightly softer than in reality, due to this being a scan of a print rather than a scan from the negative. I haven't touched the thing in about five or six years but I'm inspired to drag it out for another roll now.
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Old 12-28-2016   #32
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Thanks for the replies and info.
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Old 01-18-2017   #33
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This thread inspired me to pull out a Kodak Cartridge Hawkeye Model A, I've had for who knows how long, but never have run film through.

The results were ok. I shot color and the lens renders about the same as one from a modern day one-time-use camera. With CA and focus fall off on the edges, but decently sharp in the center. I decided to "turn off" the reds (desaturate and darken) in photoshop before converting the files to greyscale to mimic an orthochromatic look. This looks much more interesting than the color files did, I think.

Hawkeye'd Dummies by Berang Berang, on Flickr

hawkeye'd SAAB by Berang Berang, on Flickr

One of the tricks to getting the best out of these old boxes is to remember the focus is set to not quite hyperfocal distance, so distant backgrounds will always be soft. If you want something sharp it really needs to be between 15 and 30 or so feet from the camera, if it's in that zone the results can be quite sharp. Outside of that, less so. In the days before enlargements this slight fudging of the hyperfocal distance didn't matter because the prints were too small for anybody to tell that scenery was not exactly in focus. Today though its a lot more apparent.
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Old 01-20-2017   #34
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@tunalegs. Thanks for the info. I didn't know any of that about their hyperfocal distance 'weakness'. I'll remember it from now on.


@johnf04. Yes I have, unfortunately the shutter speed seem sto be around 1/30 which is a bit slow for me.

I've decided to put the idea of getting a box camera on hold for now as I've still got to get a couple of camera bags and I'm having a little trouble finding the 'right' ones, though I have got a few candidates.
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Old 01-23-2017   #35
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boxes by Berang Berang, on Flickr

I bought three... unfortunately they're all so cheap it's tough to resist. One of which, that I hadn't heard of until I bought it, was the Certo Doppel Box which contains a two element lens, two selectable focus zones, three apertures, and I, B, and T settings. It may be worth looking for one of these.
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Old 01-24-2017   #36
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I've decided to put the idea of getting a box camera on hold for now
The box camera itch is a good one to scratch! When it comes back have a look at some of the beautiful cameras Kodak made in the '50s when box cameras were already obsolete

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Old 01-24-2017   #37
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Don't those Kodaks use 620?

It's sort of weird but box cameras didn't really disappear until after the introduction of the Instamatic. 126 finally killed that segment dead in the 1960s (although a few 127 box cameras languished into the 1970s).
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Old 01-24-2017   #38
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Don't those Kodaks use 620?
Yeah, my camera is specified for 620, so I snip the edges of the 120 spool with fingernail clippers. Works great
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Old 01-24-2017   #39
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I've done the same to use my oldest box, an Ensign which needs 117 film. 117 was the same as 120, but only came in six exposure lengths, consequently the spool ends are a smaller diameter. I'll have to do another roll through it soon too I suppose.

Ensign 2ĽA Box Form camera by Berang Berang, on Flickr

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@tunalegs. Thanks for the info. I didn't know any of that about their hyperfocal distance 'weakness'. I'll remember it from now on.
A while back I tested some of my cameras with a ground glass, checked against what was written in the instruction manual, and then fiddled around on the online depth of field calculator, and found most typical boxes seem to be fixed to a focus of about 15-20 feet. This provides sharp focus from about 10 feet to about 50 or so feet. Which would have been very useful for the sort of things people with box cameras probably usually took photos of (group photos, or things like houses and small scenes). As most people simply got contact prints at the time, it was sharp enough for landscapes too. Instructions for indoors photos had people stop the lens down and do a long exposure, this had the effect of increasing the near focus to about eight feet or so, so seated portraits could have been possible indoors (or outdoors in deep shade).
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Old 01-25-2017   #40
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@tunaegs, thanks for the extra info and the new camera suggestion.

Some of the simpler 126 cameras, such as the kodak 177x) had fixed focus, 1 speed and 2 apertures. They were basically small box cameras. If more 126 cameras had been like the rollei 126 or ricoh 126 (prolly not quite the right names) ie. like 'proper' cameras but with easier film loading, then maybe 126 wouldn't have died out.

@wjj3. That brownie flash iv is quite pretty, but I think it's even simpler than the brownie model 2 f, so I wonder why they'd do that given the rise of more complicated cameras.
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