Does this sound insane .... or rational?
Old 06-12-2015   #1
Keith
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Does this sound insane .... or rational?

By the way if you decide I am actually insane ..... I won't take offense!

I'm considering exchanging my M240 for a CCD based MM and handing the colour duties back to my foveon sensored cameras and my D700. The colour from the 240 has disappointed me a little because I think I got horribly spoiled by my Merrills and the black and white conversions from the camera (240) have always left me a little non plussed because the Merrills seem to beat it in this area as well.

I have, however, always been highly impressed with what the old MM can produce in the right hands and I do like M ergonomics which is a large part of the reason I got the 240. Black and white is very important to me and in this area the 240 doesn't quite cut it in my opinion. And I have persevered for nearly a year now!

This brings me to the point of this post which is the value of the two cameras. Used CCD MMs have come down quite a whack since the release of the 246 but do you think they are on par with a used 240 with around ten thousand clicks if the MM is pretty well mint with a low shutter count?
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Old 06-12-2015   #2
Ronald M
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Considering the sensor corrosion problems of M9 and MM, I would not buy one.

Too many systems are a pain. Even my Nikons and Leicas are often too much.

Photoshop goes a long way toward making colors the way you want.
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Old 06-12-2015   #3
BillBingham2
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Very rational Sir.

Back in the film days the decision over which camera was separate from which film we wanted to use. Films were made in different sizes and spooled/cut to different sizes. With sensors, controllers (CPUs) and software that correlate to film built into cameras (no longer interchangeable) we are now forced to switch entire systems if we do not like the way the sensor captures and software renders the images.

Sorry to say no handicap parking sticker for you, you are completely rational in your thoughts and actions.

Now, if you would like to do something irrational, say give me the errant M to love and feed I'd be happy to write your local government and request a mentally handicapped parking sticker for you car.

Let me know, always willing to help a friend out....

B2 (;->
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Old 06-12-2015   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
Very rational Sir.

Back in the film days the decision over which camera was separate from which film we wanted to use. Films were made in different sizes and spooled/cut to different sizes. With sensors, controllers (CPUs) and software that correlate to film built into cameras (no longer interchangeable) we are now forced to switch entire systems if we do not like the way the sensor captures and software renders the images.

Sorry to say no handicap parking sticker for you, you are completely rational in your thoughts and actions.

Now, if you would like to do something irrational, say give me the errant M to love and feed I'd be happy to write your local government and request a mentally handicapped parking sticker for you car.

Let me know, always willing to help a friend out....

B2 (;->

LOL ..... I'll get back to you!

Great post.
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Old 06-12-2015   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
Considering the sensor corrosion problems of M9 and MM, I would not buy one.

Too many systems are a pain. Even my Nikons and Leicas are often too much.

Photoshop goes a long way toward making colors the way you want.
I completely agree. Wouldn't touch one due to the unresolved sensor issues.
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Old 06-12-2015   #6
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I am aware of the sensor issue and have taken that into consideration.
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Old 06-12-2015   #7
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If you are not happy with the M240 you will not be happy with the M9MM.

It sounds like a coffee grinder after discharging , has poor batteries, Probably will die and need to go for a 3-6 month visit to Leica, and pretty much has an unknown future value considering a new model may make it obsolete.
The files are nice but if any of us are honest the are not that amazing compared to what is available.
Anyway.... bail that idea. It's a bad one.
Keep the M24o or leave digital rangefinders,
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Old 06-12-2015   #8
GaryLH
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Where the Leica mm will beat the Merrill or Quattro sensors for b&w is gonna be
- dynamic range
- higher iso
- higher resolution (theoretically - not talking about foveon speak megapixels , but sigma has perfectly matched lens to sensor in the dp series which may make it a push).

Given the known problems w/ the m9, if it was me, I would wait for a used 246 to come into the right price range. For me when I feel like shooting rf, I shoot b&w film...

Before u give up on the 240, have u tried silver fx pro 2 (now owned by google , ). It does a pretty good job w/ b&w conversion. It comes as a plug in for your photo sw. Not sure which sw u are using these days.

https://www.google.com/nikcollection...lver-efex-pro/

Good luck
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Old 06-13-2015   #9
Kwesi
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No you are not insane at all. You have been underwhelmed by the M240 for a while now.
My suggestion would be
1: to rent or try an MM at your store and bring home files to look at.
2: sell your M240 now privately for max cash and sock it away till the next M is announced then evaluate your options.
At the end of the day your Merrills may just be the right camera for you.
Full disclosure- I switched from an M9P to M240 and although I sometimes miss the instant drama of the M9 files I much prefer the M240.
In your case it sounds like the output trumps the hardware.
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Old 06-13-2015   #10
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Actually, Keith, I think you might genuinely be nuts, at least as regards this. Not because of the reasons mentioned above, but because of your love of the EVF on your M240. Personally I don't care for mine and have made next to no use of it beyond proving it works and testing various things in the sense of optical vs EVF focus. But you use yours, for actual photographic purposes, and if you go with the old CCD MM then you'll be giving it up.

Only you know how important that might or might not be to you, but I'm guessing it has at least some importance.

...Mike
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Old 06-13-2015   #11
Freakscene
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Keith - I had my MM for 34 months but for 4 months of that it was with Leica. Sensor was replaced in December 2012 and started showing spots again in March 2015. Last weekend I got my 246. When the MM works it is phenomenal.

But without a fix for the sensor I wouldn't trust it.

Marty
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Old 06-13-2015   #12
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A beautiful image, Marty!

This is such a subjective thing with so many variables that each of us will prioritize differently.

My biggest concern, if it was me, going 'back' to the M9/MM platform from the M240 would be whether I could live with the less refined feel of the MM's various functions. Whenever I go back to my M9 from the M240, it feels slower, more laggy, the shutter sound annoys, buffer depth and battery life is poor... I shoot a lot at 21mm, so the EVF/live view function has a practical benefit for composition. But my move from the M9 to M240 wasn't about image quality. If you can live with the MM's functionality, the question about the sensor (my M9 has about 10 of the telltale spots, after ~5 years of ownership), and if you can do a near even swap, then maybe it makes sense for you. But I do wonder how well the M240's resale will hold up. Especially if a new model is announced later this year. I guess it will depend somewhat on how much of an improvement it is perceived to be over the 240 and its selling price. As it is now, you can easily find M240 demo bodies, or buy at quite low prices new from Asia. I would have a very difficult time justifying spending over $3500 for a used M240.
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Old 06-13-2015   #13
airfrogusmc
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I say go for it Keith.

The original MM is amazing. Over 30K and 2 1/2 years and no sensor problem here. If you do have a problem Leica will take care of it.

Borrowing or renting one is good advice.
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Old 06-13-2015   #14
mcfingon
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I think you're as batty as a belfry, Keith. There's no rationality in your thought. But maybe that's what is needed to be an artist, not an accountant. I agree that the M9Monochrom has produced the only black and white that looks even better than real film.
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Old 06-13-2015   #15
dave lackey
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Keith,

I like the way you think! Go for it!!

The D700 is perfect and you know going in about the sensors on the MM, so it is time!

Oh, one more thought...it is not likely you will keep any Leica digital M forever so why not go in with your eyes open and get what you want out of your photography? Life is short, it is later than you think.
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Old 06-13-2015   #16
dave lackey
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My one and only experience shooting the MM... just a snap. In Savannah, using Cal's MM. I love that camera! Even though the crappy resolution for posting shows nothing much, the original file is stunning. But, I am happy with my film results so that is where I am and plan to be for quite awhile. The MM is really a nice instrument to me. The 240? I have no idea. The point is, use the camera you love and ditch the rest.

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File Type: jpg River Street Savannah July 2013 rff.jpg (33.2 KB, 219 views)
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Old 06-13-2015   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
By the way if you decide I am actually insane ..... I won't take offense!

I'm considering exchanging my M240 for a CCD based MM and handing the colour duties back to my foveon sensored cameras and my D700. The colour from the 240 has disappointed me a little because I think I got horribly spoiled by my Merrills and the black and white conversions from the camera (240) have always left me a little non plussed because the Merrills seem to beat it in this area as well.

I have, however, always been highly impressed with what the old MM can produce in the right hands and I do like M ergonomics which is a large part of the reason I got the 240. Black and white is very important to me and in this area the 240 doesn't quite cut it in my opinion. And I have persevered for nearly a year now!

This brings me to the point of this post which is the value of the two cameras. Used CCD MMs have come down quite a whack since the release of the 246 but do you think they are on par with a used 240 with around ten thousand clicks if the MM is pretty well mint with a low shutter count?
Insane, no. A bit fickle, yes. ;-)

If I was going to trade off to another Leica M and B&W was what I was after, I would get on the waiting list for the MM246, no question.

I've got my order in for one, and I'm keeping the M-P typ 240. The M-P changed my photography, and my plans going forward—I'm selling off most of the other digital camera gear to focus on using it. I was going to buy a second body, then the MM246 came out. I see that as the perfect second body since I work with B&W about 80% of the time.

G
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Old 06-13-2015   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I am aware of the sensor issue and have taken that into consideration.
Then this urge seems irrational to me.

It seems more likely than not a 240-MM appear soon.

While you wait, try and figure out how to render the raw with the color aesthetics you prefer.
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Old 06-13-2015   #19
John E Earley
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One question I have started to ask myself: Am I into serial camera ownership or am I into photography.

So far it seems to be more of the former.
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Old 06-13-2015   #20
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I have thoroughly enjoyed my MM over the past two years and last week discovered it also has first signs of sensor corrosion, confirmed yesterday by Leica technicians. Replacements sensors that hopefully have an improved coating are about 3 month out. I'm on the waiting list for a sensor once they come in. If they offer an upgrade option to the M246 has not yet been determined. If the files with the new CCD sensor are identical to the current version ... no one knows. Also my M9 has the corrosion issue. I would honestly not buy an MM at this point. The files are just magical, no experience with the M246...
As for converting color files to bw : I am not sure if I would be able to pick these blind from orig. digital monochrome files but all my attempts to convert color files to bw just seem to be color shots with the color missing and not bw shots. I don't know if this makes any sense
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Old 06-13-2015   #21
ktmrider
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If you like the results from the original MM, get it. You know all the issues.
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Old 06-13-2015   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icebear View Post
If they offer an upgrade option to the M246 has not yet been determined.
Leica Australia gave me an upgrade to the 246.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icebear View Post
If the files with the new CCD sensor are identical to the current version ... no one knows.
The new batch are the same sensors. There is no reason to assume they will be any different.

Marty
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Old 06-13-2015   #23
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Well, I am with ktmrider. As long as your basic needs and obligations are covered, you really have to scratch that itch. Even if the newer CMOS cameras are in some way technically superior, you have seen the palette that you want to paint with.

Look at it this way: you have maybe five to ten years in which you can buy that camera knowing that there are parts and support for it. No point in wasting any more time. Get on with it.

[Edit: took a quick look at your gallery. Seems from the files I have seen with the MM that the camera was made for you. Nice work.]
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Old 06-13-2015   #24
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Do it!
The Merrills and Nikon will do fine for your color work.
The MM will shine in your hands.
Once you get the MM I would like to hear your take on the Merrill B&W vs MM
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Old 06-13-2015   #25
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keith…i vote absolutely insane…and as proof i think you should send me your very idle rd1...
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Old 06-13-2015   #26
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Quote:
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Leica Australia gave me an upgrade to the 246.

The new batch are the same sensors. There is no reason to assume they will be any different.

Marty
1. Lucky you, I guess this is coming as a general option.
2. The technician I spoke to yesterday vagely indicated an improved coating which would prevent the corrosion with the replacement sensors happening at the same pace. The sensors will be the same but the coating will hopefully give improved protection against humidity.
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beautiful!
Old 06-13-2015   #27
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beautiful!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
Keith - I had my MM for 34 months but for 4 months of that it was with Leica. Sensor was replaced in December 2012 and started showing spots again in March 2015. Last weekend I got my 246. When the MM works it is phenomenal.

But without a fix for the sensor I wouldn't trust it.

Marty

Marty,
wow! great image!
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Old 06-13-2015   #28
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It's not just rational; it's brilliant. M240 is mediocre among CMOS cameras. The MM is unique: the tonality of 14-bit files and the resolution are unmatched. In particular, the MM excels in the shadows, where other cameras, which purport to supersede the MM, are somewhat lacking.

The only reason not to trade the M240 for the MM is if you need live view. But then why not shoot with any of the eminently better live view cameras out there?

Also to consider: your M240 will become obsolete in the fall when the new, EVF-only M is launched. The value of the M240 will experience a significant drop. By contrast, the MM has already dropped and will not be dropping any further, once word gets out that the successor is no replacement at all. In fact, MM prices will go up a smidge (immaterially) once people realize that "they don't make them anymore."

Leica's flagship should be a $7,000 CCD camera with the best CCD that money can buy these days. Sadly, Leica's engaged in ridiculous gimmicks like the M60: a CMOS camera without live view. About as useful as a lean pig.
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Old 06-13-2015   #29
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I would not give it to much thought, just do it.

As someone mentioned above, life is short. Go after the creative tool that you can put in your hands today.

..... I have faith that Leica will stand behind the product like they have with the M9 if any problem arises. The time away while being fixed would be a drag but that may be years away, if at all.

Good luck with your decision.
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Old 06-13-2015   #30
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Rscheffler, Darya and others, thanks for commenting. I really like that shot too.

Keith, I still think you're nuts. :-)

Marty
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Old 06-13-2015   #31
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This isn't the film age. Color and B/W are manageable by PP. Be it PS or LR. Getting the MM won't magically make your photos better, plus there are huge drawbacks with the sensor and the hardware being not so great. If you want the MM sure, go for it, but there's no logical train of thought that can justify buying one knowing it will probably fail at some point, versus the M240 which you already own, and can use without issue.
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Old 06-14-2015   #32
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Well this thread has made my head spin. Been away from the computer all weekend at the GF's place ... who happens to have no electricity!

There has been some great advice in this thread and I totally respect the members who think I am indeed nuts! My thoughts after reading all the advice tend to favor the sensible approach .... trouble is I'm not sure what the sensible approach actually is.

Godfrey .... how dare you suggest I'm fickle! LOL
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Old 06-14-2015   #33
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Been away from the computer all weekend at the GF's place ... who happens to have no electricity!
That evil green smiley says you poured hot wax over each other???
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Old 06-14-2015   #34
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Keith - I had my MM for 34 months but for 4 months of that it was with Leica. Sensor was replaced in December 2012 and started showing spots again in March 2015. Last weekend I got my 246. When the MM works it is phenomenal.

But without a fix for the sensor I wouldn't trust it.

Marty


That is stunning Marty .... really lovely image.

I really need to know what you think of the 246 when you get used to it because so far I have seen little from it that's impressed me.

One of my options is to sell the 240 before it becomes worthless (relatively) and get the 246 as soon as I can afford to .... but it needs to be at least as good as it predecessor before I'll consider that.

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