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Canon P as good as Leica M2/M3?
Old 03-14-2015   #1
Fadedsun
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Canon P as good as Leica M2/M3?

I'm curious about the Canon P and how it compares to these early Leica M models. Currently, the only Leica I own is a IIIC, but I'd like to own one of the M's someday. I'm wondering if people who own the Canon P could say if it scratched that itch of wanting to own a Leica M camera. Aesthetically they look very similar, and I believe I read that a Canon P can use Leica screw mount lenses? It would be great if I could get various opinions from users of both cameras
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Old 03-14-2015   #2
JP Owens
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I've found the Canon screw mount cameras to be excellent cameras.

But, there is really nothing like a Leica M. That's not to praise or damn them. It is simply to say they are unique in the world. And if you are itching for one, you might as well buy the M, instead of a dozen other brands. Because nothing else is going to scratch the itch.
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Old 03-14-2015   #3
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Here's my two-bits worth.
I dumped my M's years ago, but I'm still using my Canon P.
Yes, you can use your ltm leases with no problems... And no adapters.
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Old 03-14-2015   #4
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The Canon P is a fantastic camera. But the viewfinder is a little dimmer than most. The lifesize 35mm finder is awesome though so it's well worth the trade-off.

Not sure if the mechanism is as robust. My shutter curtain just pulled off the drum the other day on my P. I am sad about it but I only paid $75 for it.
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Old 03-14-2015   #5
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Are apples as good as oranges? 'Cos they're about that different. I really like Canons and have had several, but none that I like/liked as well as M2 or M3. Put it this way: I still have Leica RFs, but no Canon RFs.

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Old 03-14-2015   #6
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I have an M3 and an M6, and I have three Canon P cameras. The P is basic and very functional. The M cameras are luxury cameras. Both are functional.
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Old 03-14-2015   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I have an M3 and an M6, and I have three Canon P cameras. The P is basic and very functional. The M cameras are luxury cameras. Both are functional.
Well I have Luxury in my very bright gold view finder on my Canon VT. My 7sz is clear a very sharp. M2 and M3 have to go a long way to be as nice in the view finder, and they were recently serviced and are very clear
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Old 03-14-2015   #8
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The P is a great camera, but watch the viewfinder, which, on some cameras, can flare with age.

The Leica M’s main advantage is its excellent rangefinder/viewfinder. The rangefinder patch on a M3 or M2 is sharp-edged, making focusing sure and precise. The focusing patch on the P is more “mushy,” making focusing a bit more problematic.

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Old 03-14-2015   #9
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The short answer to your question is no.

With its screw mount, a canon P will limit you to screw mount lenses only. An M camera mounts M lenses as well as screw mount lenses with an adaptor. The M cameras have a step up in build quality over the Canon P and 7, which were built to a lower price point.

That being said, one CAN find happiness with the canons, but that will depend completely on you.
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Old 03-14-2015   #10
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the only thing that will scratch the itch for a leica is to buy a leica, afterwhich you will wonder what the fuss was about and start itching for something else. that's life!

and, no, it's not as good, but it's good enough. save your money if you've got better things to do with it.
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Old 03-14-2015   #11
Joe Vitessa
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Canon P is a great camera, but I found focusing with Leicas much easier. The Ms also feel more solid/durable.
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Old 03-14-2015   #12
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Personally I found the P's viewfinder unsatisfactory for 35mm lenses as I couldn't see the whole frame, however I wear glasses and no doubt if my eye had been closer it would be have been fine.
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Old 03-14-2015   #13
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I've never had a Canon P or an M3. But I did have a Yashica YF prior to my M2s. The YF is a pretty sweet camera with a nice feature set and I had no complaints with it. It felt great and I was happy with the results. But I didn't get the feeling that it was "robust" enough to give me another 10 or 15 years of heavy use - which is what I was after. The Yashica wasn't as tank-like as as Leica, and it's certainly easier to get M2 parts. So I sold the YF before I had a chance to wear it out and bought an M2. And then another.

I'm not sure if long-term serviceability is high on your list on considerations, but that was my thought process.
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Old 03-14-2015   #14
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I have not used a P model Canon but I have a VT and two 7s, and had a II and a IVSB. The 7's patch is not as friendly to use as the focusing patch on my '61 M3 but I like using that camera just as much if not more than the M3. The M3 is so much more money that I end up worrying about it a bunch more while out which reduces my ability to just make photos. Just like I worry about the Canon RFs and lenses more than I worry about cheap M42 or Pentax K mount gear.

A Leica is a Leica but the Canons are fine cameras.
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Old 03-14-2015   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinaw View Post
The focusing patch on the P is more “mushy,” making focusing a bit more problematic.
I always find these statements interesting.

I personally greatly prefer the indistinct RF patch like on my Nikon SP or indeed the Canon P. When it's in focus it just sort of disappears, while on my Leica M6 and Bessa it's just this big bright rectangle in the middle that is sometimes distracting. I don't think the indistinct patch makes focusing "problematic," it's just different.

As a side note, on my P the RF patch is way bigger than on any other camera I've used, which is interesting.
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Old 03-16-2015   #16
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I like my Canon P - but it's still LTM, and all that implies, lens wise. It's like the difference between a nice Toyota and a basic Mercedes - they both are well made and very useable for the purpose. But if you really want the Mercedes.... It won't cure that. I find the RF to be excellent, the VF to be very good overall. The 35mm lines are not really there for me wearing glasses.
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Old 03-17-2015   #17
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One thing about the P is you can mount a Jupiter-12 to it with no problem. Now finding a good J-12 in LTM is another thing.

No matter what camera you have, you will have to compromise one way or the other. None of them are perfect, though some come close. And it's all about how it handles for you. Everybody has their own preferences.

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Old 03-17-2015   #18
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I have Canon P cameras in chrome, black, and olive.
I trust these cameras to work well.
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Old 03-17-2015   #19
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The P is a first rate rangefinder which can accept many outstanding lenses. It is also bargain priced these days. Another key feature of the P is that it has metal shutter curtains which will last forever. The view finder is comparable to that of the M3 in my estimation, although I think the M2 beats it. The M's have the best rangefinder patch of any vintage rangefinder that I know of - just awesome really. The Leica M's are all extremely fine cameras overall (that almost goes without saying). Both P's and M's often need servicing when encountered on the used market today if serious use is contemplated.
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Old 03-17-2015   #20
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Quote:
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Another key feature of the P is that it has metal shutter curtains which will last forever.
From the Cameraquest site:

"Above is a rare shot of a 18/1000 mm thick plastic coated stainless steel shutter curtain WHICH HAS NOT BEEN CRINKLED. Nikon decided to go with Titanium shutter curtains in the SP and Nikon F, and they proved unbelievably durable. In contrast, the stainless steel curtains in the later Canon RF's are EASILY crinkled. It is very unusual to find unwrinkled Canon steel curtains today. "
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Old 03-17-2015   #21
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Yes they crinkle, but that has no effect on their operation. A more significant problem with P curtains is that they can suffer (occasionally) oil stains, however these can be cleaned off fairly easily. Compared to cloth shutter curtains, with the considerable expense and expertise necessary to replace them, metal curtains are superior. Of course titanium curtains would be more desirable, but the SP is a much more expensive camera and the Nikon F is not a rangefinder.

And yes, the viewfinder of the P can be a moderate challenge to use particularly when using the 35mm frame lines. The P is an outstanding camera for the price it now sells for, which is less than $200 for a good one. The Leica M's and the Nikon SP are several times more expensive, and one would expect some advantages for such a great price differential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
From the Cameraquest site:

"Above is a rare shot of a 18/1000 mm thick plastic coated stainless steel shutter curtain WHICH HAS NOT BEEN CRINKLED. Nikon decided to go with Titanium shutter curtains in the SP and Nikon F, and they proved unbelievably durable. In contrast, the stainless steel curtains in the later Canon RF's are EASILY crinkled. It is very unusual to find unwrinkled Canon steel curtains today. "
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Old 03-18-2015   #22
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Reading this thread - had to break out the Canon P and load it up. Mine has just a hint of a wrinkle in the curtain. Still works great. Easy to load. RF is great - almost as good as my Bessa T and IIIc with new RF mirrors. Auto film counter, smooth wind-on, sturdy, inexpensive - what's not to love? OK the frame lines are a little thin and cluttered - but they are identified in the finder....
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Old 03-18-2015   #23
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The Canon P is beautiful.
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Old 03-18-2015   #24
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Thanks for all the wonderful responses everyone! Really appreciate it.
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Old 03-18-2015   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence View Post
Personally I found the P's viewfinder unsatisfactory for 35mm lenses as I couldn't see the whole frame, however I wear glasses and no doubt if my eye had been closer it would be have been fine.
Same here. I think the Canon P is incredibly rugged, so from a build quality standpoint it's on par w/ the M2/M3. But the Leica vfs are brighter, and the M2 is much easier to use w/ a 35mm lens. The winding on the Canon P is not quite as buttery smooth as on an M from the same vintage. The design of the P, however, is beautiful; very elegant.
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Old 03-18-2015   #26
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Canon P is the next best rangefinder... after my M4-P.

And I like them both.
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Old 03-18-2015   #27
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I had a P year’s back, but sold it, because I didn’t like the viewfinder (mine was flary). But this thread has rekindled my interest. Maybe I’ll buy one with my tax refund.

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Old 03-18-2015   #28
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I've had a P for years, and like it. I just got my first M3, getting CLAd now. I'll give a comparison when it returns and I use it. I'd say the P has no real faults.
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Old 03-18-2015   #29
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I love the design and build of the Canon P. The 1:1 viewfinder with a 50mm lens is perfect, though 35mm framelines are difficult without glasses and almost impossible with glasses. Very quiet "snip" of the shutter. And people say "Oh is that a Leica?" and I get to say "Nope a Canon" and see their confused faces.
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Old 03-18-2015   #30
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I just bought a real nice Canon P.

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Old 03-18-2015   #31
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The canon P is a great, well built camera, iīve fixed quite a few. The parts and functions are outstanding...
But the m3 and even more the m2 rangefinder canīt be matched by the canon P.

So the P is very very good but not as good as the m2.
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Old 03-18-2015   #32
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Quote:
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The canon P is a great, well built camera, iīve fixed quite a few. The parts and functions are outstanding...
But the m3 and even more the m2 rangefinder canīt be matched by the canon P.

So the P is very very good but not as good as the m2.
I think that summarizes it pretty well. I am one (of many) who regard the early Leica M's as being in a class of their own. Their prices reflect that of course, and the only reason they aren't more expensive is that a fairly large number were made.
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Old 03-18-2015   #33
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There is another option. The Canon VI-L shares everything with the P but the rangefinder mechanism. It has a 1:1 viewfinder with frame lines for 50mm and 100mm, and like the earlier generation V series it has alternate viewing modes for 35mm (not 1:1) and magnification, which can make precise focusing easier. On top of that, it has the V series pin that automatically adjusts parallax for compatible accessory shoe-mounted viewfinders. It may be a better choice than the P, but it is a lot harder to find - and thus more expensive. I have a VI-L and a P and like them both, but I haven't used them much yet.
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Old 03-18-2015   #34
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i would get a vi-l over a p just because it look nicer, but i wear glasses. =(
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Old 03-20-2015   #35
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Does anyone just hate the Canon P? I was discussing the P with my brother, of which he said he didn't like. He used a P in between two Leica M2's and just didn't enjoy it. I've thought about getting one myself, but didn't have the same interest when my brother expressed his disdain. But now reading the good reviews on here... I'm interested again!
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Old 03-20-2015   #36
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I bought a P a few years ago as my first LTM upgrade from the FED-2 that got me into rangefinders. I liked it so much that I bought an L1 to go along with it in a two-body travel kit. FWIW, I find the L1 a little smoother than the P in pretty much every way, but I enjoy them both, and the P's 1:1 viewfinder is great for street photography. Build quality is really high on both.

I can't say whether it's better than an M, as I haven't used one, but it's plenty good enough for my needs.
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Old 03-20-2015   #37
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Quote:
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There is another option. The Canon VI-L shares everything with the P but the rangefinder mechanism. It has a 1:1 viewfinder with frame lines for 50mm and 100mm, and like the earlier generation V series it has alternate viewing modes for 35mm (not 1:1) and magnification, which can make precise focusing easier. On top of that, it has the V series pin that automatically adjusts parallax for compatible accessory shoe-mounted viewfinders. It may be a better choice than the P, but it is a lot harder to find - and thus more expensive. I have a VI-L and a P and like them both, but I haven't used them much yet.
Agreed on the VI-L - a superb camera in all respects - and really better frame lines (or at least easier to use) than the P.
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Old 03-20-2015   #38
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I've owned several P's and though there's plenty to like about them, I ended trading them off for something else I liked better. I also liked the Canon lenses I had, 35/1.8, 50/1.8 and 50/1.4 which all rendered beautifully. Eventually I'd like to get an M2 or M3 as a replacement
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Old 03-20-2015   #39
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as good as..... no.
Good enough for me though.
Not to say i wouldn't like an M3, but I don't 'need' the 'upgrade'.
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Old 03-20-2015   #40
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I've held an M3 body once. It was pretty nice. And about three and a half times what I paid for a P with two lenses, meter, and the special humped case. And you still have to take the M3 bottom off to load film. Nope, I'll stick to my Canon with a wide choice of LTM lenses that don't cost near as much as M mount ones.

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