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Is Film Dying Again ?
Old 04-27-2014   #1
marcr1230
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Is Film Dying Again ?

My gear evolution is as follows

1. born in the film era, grew up and matured with film only
2. Early digital, bought one, meh, not great, no infrastructure to really
share, no well priced digital that was even near the flexibility and quality of my film gear
3. Film dies, everyone goes digital, digital cameras much better.
4. I find that I can now purchase every film camera of my dreams for pennies on the dollar. So I do.
4.5. films choices are being ever reduced
5. Digital is really good, from phones to mirrorless to DSLR, surpasses film in pure quality and certainly in immediacy and ease of use. Cameras like the E-M1, iPhones, X-T1, X100s, M9, MM etc...
6. I see lots of talk on the forums about the current generation of digital, lot's of excitement.
7. I see lots of ads in RFF for film gear (more than usual ?)

not to say that film will ever go away, but is my experience and evolution in any way reflective of others and of the overall market ?

so is film experiencing a second death ?
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Old 04-27-2014   #2
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I don't hope so but I was shocked yesterday wheb I had to pay 12euros per roll for 120 E6 developing... just sick! I'm going to develop E6 at home because these prices are a crime (a roll of velvia is 15 euros at my local shop + 12 developing = 27 euros for one roll of 120 film!!!).
PS: last year it was "only" 6,50 per roll.
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Old 04-27-2014   #3
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Don't confuse gear obsession with excitement. Number 3 on your list is certainly suspect. Is this your crystal ball prediction? Number 5 is a joke, right? You do understand that photography is about the image, not how anyone got it.

Basically, if you shoot B&W, film is where it's at, and probably always will be. It's the nature of the two mediums. Apples and oranges. Besides, since film never died, how can it experience a second death. It's just your perceptions, not reality. You've obviously decided, in your eyes and in your opinion, that digital is better than film. Wow, I've never heard that one? So, it must be true then. LOL!
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Old 04-27-2014   #4
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In a word: No. Just look at the numbers.

There are lots of reasons to shoot film. Image quality isn't among them and probably hasn't been for the last three years or so*. At least not from a technical point of view if you compare apples to apples - and not smartphone snaps to drumscanned 8x10 slides.

* Interestingly, this is also the period in which increasing film sales have been reported ...
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Old 04-27-2014   #5
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Although I'm shooting more digital, I'm shooting more film too!
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Old 04-27-2014   #6
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The last 73 identical discussions rang and want to have their thread back.
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Old 04-27-2014   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
1. born in the film era, grew up and matured with film only
As was I.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
3. Film dies, everyone goes digital, digital cameras much better.
Film has a long healthy life ahead...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
4. I find that I can now purchase every film camera of my dreams for pennies on the dollar. So I do.
Where??? I have yet to find these cheap cameras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
4.5. films choices are being ever reduced
Not really.. Old films are phased out and new films come in to take up the space..

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
5. Digital is really good, from phones to mirrorless to DSLR, surpasses film in pure quality and certainly in immediacy and ease of use. Cameras like the E-M1, iPhones, X-T1, X100s, M9, MM etc...
While digital may be good the cameras for the most part are plastic. Digital lens have built-in sloppiness for them to work and they don't always work that good.. I get better results with manual focus lens on digital..

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
7. I see lots of ads in RFF for film gear (more than usual ?)
I don't see any more than usual. People are always moving their gear to try new gear..

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
not to say that film will ever go away, but is my experience and evolution in any way reflective of others and of the overall market ?

so is film experiencing a second death ?
No....
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Old 04-27-2014   #8
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Everything is dying.... Period
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Old 04-27-2014   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcr1230 View Post
6. I see lots of talk on the forums about the current generation of digital, lot's of excitement.
We tend to focus on things that we're interested in. I'm interested in film, so I read film related topics. To me it seems digital is never discussed except to knock companies for making the "wrong" camera when they come out with a new one.

I feel like there is a lot of film discussion here because I don't pay much attention to anything else. If somebody feels there is a lot of digital discussion here - it's probably because that's what they pay attention to most.
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Old 04-27-2014   #10
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Everything is dying.... Period
haha, i have to AGREE.......
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Old 04-27-2014   #11
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I don't see #4 any longer. I've noticed that film cameras, especially 35mm, have jumped in price in the past few months. I've been priced out of the film camera market recently. I was just getting into the Olympus RF's, such as the RC series, and those have almost tripled in price from when I bought my last two about a year ago---one for $20 and one for $14.
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Old 04-27-2014   #12
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Are you serious !! Film is experiencing a second life !
Professional film labs are now opening in Europe, thanks to all the wedding and portrait photographers using film only.
Check the Facebook groups like "European Film Shooters", "Film Shooters"... a growing community of professional and amateur film photographers many of them ditching digital to shoot 100% film.
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Old 04-27-2014   #13
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"There are lots of reasons to shoot film. Image quality isn't among them and probably hasn't been for the last three years or so*"

*Image quality is the primary reason I shoot film, the last three years included. It depends on what you consider image quality, I guess.
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Old 04-27-2014   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwc57 View Post
I don't see #4 any longer. I've noticed that film cameras, especially 35mm, have jumped in price in the past few months. I've been priced out of the film camera market recently. I was just getting into the Olympus RF's, such as the RC series, and those have almost tripled in price from when I bought my last two about a year ago---one for $20 and one for $14.
I don't know about jumped - certainly some items get some online hype and jump up in value for a period - but overall film camera prices are still very low. Not as low as they were about four years ago (not surprisingly prices seemed to bottom out when the economy bottomed out) but still very low. But I agree the prices are moving upwards now.

As cameras get older and harder to find in good condition we can expect that prices will get higher - even if the variety of film available becomes even more basic. People want to use them, but most types are out of production now.
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Old 04-27-2014   #15
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@Ranchu

My point was that a modern FF sensor has a higher resolution than 'normal' 135 film.
I'm 100% analog and wholeheartedly agree that film has qualities digital does not have and probably will never have.
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Old 04-27-2014   #16
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Colour film has been as good as dead for some years now. In B&W digital has not been born yet.
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Old 04-27-2014   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slidesandthecity View Post
In a word: No. Just look at the numbers.

There are lots of reasons to shoot film. Image quality isn't among them and probably hasn't been for the last three years or so*. At least not from a technical point of view if you compare apples to apples - and not smartphone snaps to drumscanned 8x10 slides.

* Interestingly, this is also the period in which increasing film sales have been reported ...
I don't think there is any digital sensor that can even begin to compare to film when it comes to colour depth. I don't know about dynamic range, but tonal curve and handling of highlights is still something I haven't seen digital get right. There's more to quality than resolution.
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Old 04-27-2014   #18
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Colour film has been as good as dead for some years now. In B&W digital has not been born yet.
Oh, I don't know about that. I would have to say that what I see from the Monochrom is pretty nice stuff. Likewise the Sigma DP Merrills are also capable of taking some very good black and white.

I think it has been born. Unfortunately a lot of what we see is black and white that has been so modified in PP that really is not what we expect. It is a bit like a 6 year old with a box of crayons and a color book. Tones, shades and colors are way out of whack. Not because they should be but because the 6 year old is still learning.

Digital black & white has certainly been born. Unfortunately most of it hasn't really grown up yet.
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Old 04-27-2014   #19
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don't get me wrong, I love the film world, the processing from start to finish is like magic and there's nothing like seeing a print develop in a tray in the darkroom

yes - it is about the image, although its also about the tools used to get that image, some are more suitable than others.

yes - there is a gear obsession - I have it as do many on the forum - some people enjoy the images, I also enjoy the complexity , sounds and feedback of a mechanical camera, that's not a crime

perhaps @tunalegs is right, we all tend to focus on our own experiences and interests at a given time and not the whole picture. That's why I threw this out there. Not as a film vs digital thread - more as a "how are the trends in film and used equipment areas"

apologies if I'v offended or smacked a hornets' nest
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Old 04-27-2014   #20
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Quote:
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Colour film has been as good as dead for some years now. In B&W digital has not been born yet.
I would agree with this for the most part. Although, some B+W digital images stand on the image alone.

When only digital can get the shot then only digital will do and those cases do exist whether color or B+W is the final output.
When shooting at 3200-6400 in very low lit scenes it's a relief to have a digital camera and a quality editing program standing by to find a few keepers


In other news... This subject is the most beaten dead horse on the entire internet. What the ???
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Old 04-27-2014   #21
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Is film dying?

Not in my house it isn't - nor will it, until the last roll on the planet has been exposed. Come to think of it, my 26-year-old 'high tech' son is just getting into it - enlarger and all! TW
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Old 04-27-2014   #22
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Gotta go. My M3 is whining to go for a walk. FP4+ today.
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Old 04-27-2014   #23
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Film's survival will depend entirely on:

1) Labs. Only they can process industrial amounts that roll film produces. Roll film production has cannot be reduced to amounts sustainable only by home developing.

2) Cinema. Pray and hope enough directors continue to shoot in film. Just shooting burns through thousands of times more emulsion than all roll film worldwide combined. That's an economy of scale necessary to keep some core inputs into film (base, chemicals) affordable.

For roll film production to stabilize, costs of processing and scanning, need to affordable.

Roll film is an odd combination of an idiosyncratic art form, highly individualized in its consumption, but requiring industrial size, mass production of its key product.
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Old 04-27-2014   #24
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I shoot color. I love the tones and palette I get with Ektar 100. If I was great at photoshop maybe it would look the same? I don't know.

That said, I think my world is tied to Kodak's success selling movie film. Their sales were down a bunch, 18% last quarter.
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Old 04-27-2014   #25
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I have more film cameras. I have one digital (Leica x1) almost four years old which I enjoy but has some limitations. Going to buy a digital but...the proliferation of new cameras (Fuji, Olympus, Leica now!) makes difficult for me to decide. As consequence I'm now shooting more film !
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Old 04-27-2014   #26
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Quote:
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That said, I think my world is tied to Kodak's success selling movie film. Their sales were down a bunch, 18% last quarter.
Ilford's isn't
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Old 04-27-2014   #27
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That said, I think my world is tied to Kodak's success selling movie film. Their sales were down a bunch, 18% last quarter.
Whatever.

"Canon especially has sold 23% fewer cameras so far in 2013 than at the same point last year. Nikon have sold 18% fewer.
Investors are taking fright. Shares in Nikon who are the most camera orientated of the big manufacturers are down the most; a 33% fall.
Sony and Fuji’s sales are down a huge 35%. Although Fuji’s X line has revitalised
interest in the brand from enthusiasts and pros, both company’s have suffered at the low and mid sections of the market."


http://www.eoshd.com/content/11409/c...s-dead-5-years

Demand for digital is falling, and demand for 35RC's is rising? Digital is a fad.
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Old 04-27-2014   #28
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I think digital demand is falling because phones are getting so good no one will want a digital camera that doesn't deliver considerably high-end results (and it looks this way, as low and medium end is where the drop is). Hopefully Ilford are going to keep going, they're certainly in a good position at the moment. Unfortunately everyone says E6 will go, which I think is sad, because slide film can certainly do things C41 and digital can't do to my eyes. In a perfect world for me C41 would go (if one has to) but E6 and B&W would live
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Old 04-27-2014   #29
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I was confronted recently with an argumentative pensioner while I was working with my 4x5 on a sunday afternoon. He wanted to instill in me how impressed he was with 'the sharpness of digital'. I was polite, but I really wanted to say:
"GO AWAY, AND LET ME FONDLE IN PEACE!!!"
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Old 04-27-2014   #30
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Nobody wants my fully working IIf here and on-ebay for $175! Dead for sure!

Here is only two major camera stores in Toronto left with film supplies. I never seen anybody else buying where, just me and only. Always.
One store has some film and only few supplies left, second one has different papers, chemicals and stuff, but only consumer color film.

Picture taking on hobby level is shifting to Instagram and paid photography is mostly digital by now.

More and more people can't cook their own food, can't hand write, multiply and divide without calculators and even walk.
Film is something which is very difficult to them now.
Few and fewer of us left every day who isn't blind and willing to do analog b/w including wet prints.
Mass production, consumerism and globalization makes general public "simple minded" and incapable of many different skills more and more.
Film photography is more like one of those craft arts, now. Which used to be just common jobs. Haven't seen new doors made with carpentry and blacksmith for long time.
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Old 04-27-2014   #31
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Old 04-27-2014   #32
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I no longer have space for a darkroom, processing in good labs expensive, grew up with film, now very much wrapped up in the Fuji X system and very happy with what I am producing at the moment. Therefore for me film is very much part of my heritage but I no longer shoot film
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Old 04-27-2014   #33
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we have heard this before. the 20 something hipsters now think it is cool to shoot film. Film is officially only a sub culture of still photography. I am good with that.
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Old 04-27-2014   #34
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Everyone thinks it's cool to shoot film, not just 20 something hipsters.
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Not by my experience....
Old 04-27-2014   #35
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Not by my experience....

I've been selling primarily film camera's on eBay for fifteen years now.

Business is better than ever. Medium Format and Large Format are increasing considerably in price over 35mm.

I put MF and LF on for a 7 day auction with a fair (but money making) Buy It Now. The auctions are NOT running full term. My last one closed an hour after it hit eBay.

Not uncommon to post 7-10 camera's at one time and have 2-3 gone by the time I finish the full complement of auctions. I have 616 positive feedbacks and growing at 100%, which is key.

Also, if you look at the enrollments in those community colleges and university campus's still offering film classes, they are often SRO.

The Community College where I teach has 3 classes, camera, film development, and a combo class running full every quarter.

I certainly don't feel threatened. For the most part my ONLY digital experience is photographing my film cameras for eBay listings.

That's not a bad thing. I use film personally.. MF and LF.

Film is not a problem. I get my film from high count Feedback sellers on eBay, with at least 99% positive feedback and high sales. Often expired but refrigerated and excellent experience with the film I am receiving.

Keeping an open mind and an eye out count for most of my happiness to continue to shoot film. I just picked up 160 envelopes of various emulsion (some NIB, but expired) of Quickload and Readyload, refrigerated, for $120 plus ship about one hundred miles. That's 75 cents a sheet for LF 4X5 film. That was a Craigslist acquisition, out of Portland Oregon.

If your having problems, your not looking in the right places. Depends on how important is IS TO YOU to continue to shoot film. Or do you just need justification to move entirely to digital.

Go ahead, we won't judge you harshly. Some people are just not equippled to stay in the fray.

It was, and is, the same with Vinyl LP records along with 78's.

The niche will survive.
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Soooo......
Old 04-27-2014   #36
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Soooo......

Quote:
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I no longer have space for a darkroom, processing in good labs expensive, grew up with film, now very much wrapped up in the Fuji X system and very happy with what I am producing at the moment. Therefore for me film is very much part of my heritage but I no longer shoot film
It's not as if daylight processing occurred to you. I am having a blast processing film and prints in Folgers Instant coffee. I am soon to display some work in a local expresso/latte shop. I plan to call the series "Coffee Break Images".

Love Fuji camera's and glass, and have used the Fujifilm S2, S3 and S5 Pro. But still prefer my hulking old Texas Rangefinder GL 690. Slide a roll of that 120 roll film through some Folgers and look out Fujifilm X series.
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Old 04-27-2014   #37
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Film is becoming a niche hobby. Perhaps 5% of those who shot film 20 years ago (almost everyone) are still using it. But it's not going to die. It's more expensive to buy a roll, and to develop a roll, because of the much fewer numbers of people shooting.

100 years later, some people still ride horses, but most drive cars. Equestrian activities didn't die. They just became uncommon.
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Old 04-27-2014   #38
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If your having problems, your not looking in the right places. Depends on how important is IS TO YOU to continue to shoot film. Or do you just need justification to move entirely to digital.
I think this is the key-point of the entire "film-is-dead" discussion(s). Using film has become less convenient than it used to be, especially when buying/processing film. That and the acceptance level of "quality" has gone down step by step in modern society (not only regarding film) ...
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Old 04-27-2014   #39
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Everything is dying.... Period
What he said.

To quote Edward Abbey, "Ain't none of us gettin' out of here alive."

Come to think of it, the leading cause of death amongst humans is living.
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Old 04-27-2014   #40
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