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rff…this could be a much nicer place to be...
Old 04-01-2014   #1
back alley
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rff…this could be a much nicer place to be...

if we cut out the high school crap about which camera is best!

i get private messeges telling me this all the time!
people are just tired of all the kids proclaiming what is best for everyone else!
frankly, i'd like to do something about it but i'm not able to ban everyone i'd like to!
so, i'll ask everyone who feels the same way to help me out…just ignore the small minds that want to debate about things they have no experience with…it's pretty clear who is full of it and who wants to start a little trolling action…

ignore them, overtly as possible, make it clear they are not appreciated or wanted here.

i'm not talking about extolling the virtues of our favorite image making devices, film or digital, fuji or sony or what have you…i'm talking about the members who drop into every thread that has as a subject the camera they love to hate! and go on and on making the same lame points in each thread and post that they have been making since day one…
i am tired of it and i think many of you are as well.

rant? oh you bet your *** it's a rant!
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Old 04-01-2014   #2
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It is a primal need. To protect your belongings.
People used to protect food, then house, then money, now the reputation of the gear they own. The idea that someone got better gear for less money is a scary idea. The louder you are online, the better you sleep.
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Old 04-01-2014   #3
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I din not expect something like this from you Joe - you are taking away my joy of life !
And what about your latest 60/1.2 or whatever it was ???
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Old 04-01-2014   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfogiel View Post
I din not expect something like this from you Joe - you are taking away my joy of life !
And what about your latest 60/1.2 or whatever it was ???
you misunderstand me…
i'm not talking about our regular gear talk…i could never end that!

i'm talking about the guy who enters a conversation just to put down a certain brand of gear…

pride of ownership is one thing…being a killjoy is another!
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Old 04-01-2014   #5
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It's easy to enforce powerful moderation of brand-flame-threads.

But then there should be plan - are only brand bashings deleted or what. Say, someone got tired of front-back focusing and moves to mirrorless and expresses his revelation, or opposite direction - to real optical finder, in rather strong manner - is this counted as bashing?

Moderation of forums and spices are two needful things, but watch the recipes.....and cooks, too
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Old 04-01-2014   #6
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I understand the distinction .
Some of the posts around here have got a little puerile of late and are useless as a means of conveying any meaningful information about gear.
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Old 04-01-2014   #7
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I know how to be nice and am very good at it. That's all I can contribute the solving this problem. Lots of other very nice people here too to be grateful for.

But I will say this...

Sh!t attitudes and mean spirits here are a problem and I'm vey sympathetic to the Mods having to play heavy with the jerks that do exist.
The constant brand Holy-Wars are just awful and useless.
The Ignore list feature works to a certain extent. I use it for the particular member I suspect inspired this thread topic. Still .. end up seeing the results of his toxic posts as he baits others in.
Wouldn't it be cool to be able to set the ignore list for all members against those few spoilsports that linger here.
It would not take long to shut people up if not one person ever replied to their toxic posts.
They would never be the wiser as to why not. Just like that self importance is eliminated
Not so easy I know. Just trying to lighten things up.

Anyway, we have many super kind and friendly members too. Lets focus on that.
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Old 04-01-2014   #8
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Thought I'd solved this for me by buying several of each species over the years, often influenced by their more erudite or passionate advocates, though not by those who just wanted to pay out on anything that was not "their" brand.

Now I can't leave the house inside 2 hours 'cos I can't choose ;-) -
Discovered the pleasure and pain of gearhead-ism.

Recently been positively influenced by some great low gear count photographers who have reinginted my ability to appreciate the photography side too. And the bonus - they get to try out the lenses and bodies I have hanging around not being properly used.

Win/Win.

And while our mods can't so much, I 'm grateful that I can ignore the trolls due to their weeding out the worst. Good on ya.
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Old 04-01-2014   #9
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I haven't noticed a problem. Already this is a pretty nice place. The stoushes that occasionally occur seem to be over other more nebulous issues.
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Old 04-02-2014   #10
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Hmm Maybe I don't pay enough attention here cause I hav'nt seen this as an issue. Maybe the thread tittle should be "This would be a much nicer place to moderate..."
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Old 04-02-2014   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmilkins View Post
Thought I'd solved this for me by buying several of each species over the years, often influenced by their more erudite or passionate advocates, though not by those who just wanted to pay out on anything that was not "their" brand.

Now I can't leave the house inside 2 hours 'cos I can't choose ;-) -
Discovered the pleasure and pain of gearhead-ism.

Recently been positively influenced by some great low gear count photographers who have reinginted my ability to appreciate the photography side too. And the bonus - they get to try out the lenses and bodies I have hanging around not being properly used.

Win/Win.

And while our mods can't so much, I 'm grateful that I can ignore the trolls due to their weeding out the worst. Good on ya.
Second the hats off to the mods, a thankless job behind the scenes. Thanks.

I find it easiest to ignore the threads that are titled "my XXXX is the best ever", its typically only just been released and is prefect with all the M-mount lenses of course...
Try spending some time on dpreview forums. Wow. Without generalising too much, they are ALL experts at everything, and loud and obnoxious too. I find these forums (fora?) to be incredibly friendly and welcoming, so the mods must get to it before I do, or more likely, I'm just oblivious to it.

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Old 04-02-2014   #12
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Not to mention the people who take great delight in dropping into a digital based thread to point out how much better film is!
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Old 04-02-2014   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
you misunderstand me…
i'm not talking about our regular gear talk…i could never end that!

i'm talking about the guy who enters a conversation just to put down a certain brand of gear…

pride of ownership is one thing…being a killjoy is another!
I don't think that there is any such thing as a camera that everyone thinks is the perfect camera.. There are always going to be discussions about the positive and negative aspects of what u have chosen. The big issue is knowing when one has crossed the line into bashing.

Trolls are a different issue though, especially those that are subtle in the way they draw u in..

The mods have a hard job.. They deserve to rant every so often.

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Old 04-02-2014   #14
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Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
....The Ignore list feature works to a certain extent. I use it for the particular member I suspect inspired this thread topic. Still .. end up seeing the results of his toxic posts as he baits others in.
Wouldn't it be cool to be able to set the ignore list for all members against those few spoilsports that linger here.
It would not take long to shut people up if not one person ever replied to their toxic posts.
They would never be the wiser as to why not. Just like that self importance is eliminated
Not so easy I know. Just trying to lighten things up.....
Andy, I think this feature must exist already as I usually find my posts go unanswered or kill a thread entirely Probably more dull than toxic though
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Old 04-02-2014   #15
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Not to mention the people who take great delight in dropping into a digital based thread to point out how much better film is!
It's important that people learn.

Joke.

Although in reply to the original post, it's probably easier just to not let posts bother you than it is to prevent people from saying what they want to say.

RFF has it's annoyances, stuff which will make you roll your eyes, but just ignore it, it's easier. As a moderator, obviously you have to do a bit more than the rest of us, but just remember: We're just people on the Internet. Our opinions are akin to certain orifices, we've all got them.
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Old 04-02-2014   #16
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There are very few characters here that I would consider regular trolls, a little arrogance from time to time and probably a lot of posts written without too much thought about how they may be read and perceived by a world wide audience ( something I've certainly been guilty of.) However, there are some outright trolls, bullies and arses and I wouldn't mind seeing them 'dealt with' in some way.

Of course finding a way that isn't overbearing, dictatorial and 'fits the crime' is the interesting part. I quite like Andy's idea simply because you continue to let them do their worst without stopping their right to free speech whilst cutting off the oxygen, though this of course stops 'our' right to reply...tricky and I doubt there's a way that would please a majority.

Just as well its only a tiny minority and they can't quite spoil it for everyone else as there's just too many of us.
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Old 04-02-2014   #17
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Camera Wars seem to be symptomatic of the internet... I've complained to some of the people I know in person from RFF and they've pointed out that many other forums are a lot worse than RFF. A quick check around the internet tells me they are right. At least here it generally is about lens IQ or ergonomics... and not charts and tests (and I know some here feel the reverse is more important, so who am I to judge). Subjective stuff is always hard to sway people to your side. The fact is that ALL of this equipment, whether film or digital, works well for photography.

I think many here really love photography as well as cameras. On some other sites, you'd swear people only like equipment. I'm not so sure that is bad except for when it comes to arguing over which is better when that can only be decided by the user and what fits THEIR photographic expectations / needs.
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Old 04-02-2014   #18
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Originally Posted by back alley View Post
rff…this could be a much nicer place to be...

It could also be a lot worse IMO ... we have some people here who may be happier strangling puppies in their spare time but what the hell, this is the way democracy works!
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Old 04-02-2014   #19
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IMHO: Ignore the rants and snide remarks. Most people should be able to recognize a thoughtful review. Sometimes a question or review needs to be posted again as it has not been asked in a long time and after all there are new members.
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Old 04-02-2014   #20
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I think we should just agree that the best camera is whatever camera Ashton Kutcher is using at the moment.
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Old 04-02-2014   #21
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No problem with the sentiment, but it has been a lot worse than it is currently. I try not to say anything that I wouldn't face to face, but I am an aggressive Scotsman The majority of the regular posters far outweigh the antagonisers, IMO, most of whom probably have inferiority complexes and small penises so are deserving of our sympathy
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Old 04-02-2014   #22
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Would it help if each moderator had an email account set up just for Rangerfinder? Don't know if that would help.

Also the moderator can just delete emails from those that raise up the hair!

Don't let it get to you because as a moderator and participant you do a great job and provide a positive service here.
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Old 04-02-2014   #23
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This is a pretty nice place. I've always wanted to start a thread: "Brassing - Good or Bad?" But I haven't, but I could. That's how it works.
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Old 04-02-2014   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gid View Post
No problem with the sentiment, but it has been a lot worse than it is currently. I try not to say anything that I wouldn't face to face, but I am an aggressive Scotsman The majority of the regular posters far outweigh the antagonisers, IMO, most of whom probably have inferiority complexes and small penises so are deserving of our sympathy
Beautiful description.
And I agree with your perception: As long as the (regular) trolling posts in this forum are way under 5 % I see no reason investing in additional filter and moderator activities. That's perhaps why my ignore list is empty.
My personal opinion!
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Old 04-02-2014   #25
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I'll be honest - I don't come here anywhere as much as I used to.

This used to be a friendly place for enthusiasts of rangefinder and other direct view users to hang out, but it's morphed into a more general photography site with a lot less focus.

It seems like a small subgroup of active posters take delight in running down the opinions of others, even when those are expressed as *opinions*, not facts. A situation like this a few months ago fattened up my ignore list and also made me seriously consider moving on to a more mature forum.

I'm a mod on a very large forum, so I know what Joe and the rest of the mod team put up with. Joe, props to you and your cohorts.
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Old 04-02-2014   #26
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This sort of thing tends to happen w/ younger, less experienced photographers (or gear heads) I would think. It is annoying, and it is funny as well. Hey, any camera that gives someone the images that they like is a good camera. When you've done this for decades you begin to get a good idea that it's usually not about the camera/lens, it's about proper exposure, a good subject, good lighting etc, and even w/ all that stuff under your belt, it is awfully hard to get consistent results. Let's face it though, a sense of humor is not always present when people are on the internet, for what ever reasons. Maybe they're like that in person too, I wouldn't know. All pretty small s*** though in the whole scheme of things, yes? But I can understand the tiresomeness of it happening. To tell the truth, I seldom even go back to a thread that I posted because of the negativity that some people have, for what ever reason they have. It isn't the criticism that I don't like....being married for a long time means I get plenty of that on a regular basis, it's the negativity.
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Old 04-02-2014   #27
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High school never ends.

I applaud Joe for taking the lead to create a more positive and productive environment.

The rate of change in photography and the endless stream of new cameras makes us uncomfortable since the landscape is constantly changing.

The blogosphere financial model rewards anything that creates page views and click-throughs to commercial sites. Bloggers who generate pseudo-controversies, harsh criticism or over-hyped praise stir the pot.

These and the well-known dynamics common to all Forums makes the moderators' jobs very difficult.
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Old 04-02-2014   #28
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Quote:
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It could also be a lot worse IMO ... we have some people here who may be happier strangling puppies in their spare time but what the hell, this is the way democracy works!
Apparently it's not a democracy ... it's like a bar, or something; and anyway I'd like to see more photos and people dwelling less on the


... and an irony filter to avoid misunderstandings
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Old 04-02-2014   #29
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I'm with ya, Joe.

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Old 04-02-2014   #30
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Apparently it's not a democracy ... it's like a bar, or something; and anyway I'd like to see more photos and people dwelling less on the


... and an irony filter to avoid misunderstandings
Which is itself ironic, unless I misunderstand you.
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Old 04-02-2014   #31
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Wow, am I sleeping? I had not noticed this problem (or at least rarely). This is a community and I would hate to see folks banished for getting "mouthy" once in awhile. No one is perfect. At the same time, I applaud the mods for doing a thankless job.
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Old 04-02-2014   #32
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When l first joined this forum in 2009 l started a thread regarding ltm leica, l sought user advice, before l knew what hit me a troll shot me down, thankfully before l could respond a mod jumped in and sorted things. In general l feel my time on this forum is not just time well spent, its very informative to and a lot more friendly than other forums l have frequented. Some of the fly fishing forums l used to spend time on had more trolls than all three volumes of Lord of the rings. I do however appreciate that a vast amount of work goes on behind the scene and I am very appreciative of the mods efforts. At the end of the day opinions differ, especially when you get a lot of passionate people in one place, sometimes those passions may boil over, sometimes people come along who enjoy friction and unharmony, l tend to follow the maxim that it cost nowt to be nice and l find in general a vast majority of people respond well to that, mind you there are always exception to any rule.
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Old 04-02-2014   #33
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Can we do away with polls?
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Old 04-02-2014   #34
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Aside from asking people to be civil, there's not much an adminstration can do to set the tone of the place. Forums have a dynamic, like restaurants and bars - crowds come and go.

I personally am in 98.6% Read Only Mode here, simply because I am very tired of talking about gear.

It does upset me when some of the very best contributors leave town because a few obnoxious people behave badly. That's the real loss to everyone here.
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Old 04-02-2014   #35
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Last summer I went away from here for a while. In large part due to life circumstances, but also because I felt there were too many contentious threads. I don't mean trolls; I mean bickering among some very senior members here. It was nice to get away. I actually spent more time using my gear and photographing than I did fretting over the merits of zinc v. chrome, or 35mm POV v 40mm, etc. We get caught up in the details, myself included.

I applaud the mods. You do a great job. If very much like visiting here, but if I was here day in and day out without a hiatus now and then, I would lose my mind. Moreover, the aforementioned trolls would drive me nuts. But, I'm not, so they don't.

The film/digital debate will always exist here. As will the Leica-lovers versus the Leica-haters. If a byproduct of a forum dedicated to rangefinders.

If you go to other forums--and not just photography or gear forums--it's a lot worse. Everything is relative, I suppose, but RFF is heads and tails above most others I visit. I don't think that is a coincidence. I think the mods do a good job in dealing with the trolls and others who try to sour things.
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Old 04-02-2014   #36
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It's an Internet thing really. You want to see it *real* bad?!? Go to any prolific amateur astronomy forum and talk either about telescope mirrors or worse, eyepieces. I can't believe the gear snobs who look down their noses if you don't own a $5,000 Zambuto mirror and pair it with a case of Televue eyepieces...and yet they use this stuff in a light polluted backyard in New Jersey, lol!

It's far worse other places and besides, just do like I do and if it gets to you, bail for a few months and get back to making great pictures...
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Old 04-02-2014   #37
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It does upset me when some of the very best contributors leave town because a few obnoxious people behave badly. That's the real loss to everyone here.
Agreed. I noticed that Chris Crawford hasn't been here in a while. That's a shame. I learned a ton from him. But I could see him slowly getting more and more annoyed with the gear debates. He is a working photographer, as are many others here, and to him a good photograph is more important than the color of a re-skinned Barnack or whatever.

When the good contributors leave, this place suffers immensely.
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Old 04-02-2014   #38
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Can we do away with polls?

Hey..... start a poll on that
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Old 04-02-2014   #39
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Which is itself ironic, unless I misunderstand you.

...........
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Old 04-02-2014   #40
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Joe:

I found your forcing a member to change their tag line to be far more disruptive than the tag line. We are moslly adults and I think that this was best ignored. Should someone make personal attacks would be another matter. That said, as members, we can express our displeasure with a person taking a topic off on a negative tangent. There are a few very confrontational members and I ignore their post. On the whole, moderation has been good and transparent. We don't want to devolve into dpreview forums.
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