leica M digital conversion... thoughts
Old 03-18-2007   #1
triplefinger
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leica M digital conversion... thoughts

I haven't yet had coffee this morning, so forgive me if this is all ridiculous.

what if you took the "garage door" off the back of an M camera, which is where the film plane is, and slapped on a sensor in its place. maybe it would be bulky and a little ugly, but... would it work?

it could even have it's own set of controls

thoughts??
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Old 03-18-2007   #2
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Hey, if you could light-seal a MF digital back to the camera and somehow convince it to actuate with the press of the shutter button it should seem to work. Bulky yes, slow, yes, workable, yes.

Huw (over on photo.net) tried to convert an M2 to digital while keeping everything within the camera body. It was supposed to be shown on April 1 of last year and nobody has heard from him since the middle of last March.
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Old 03-18-2007   #3
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Yes, I wish that someone would create a digital back for the Leica M's. The concept might be to stick the battery into the film chamber, have the whole thing insert from the bottom and replace the back film flap with the sensor.

Something clever might be needed to cycle the electronics, but how hard can that really be?

And the dust ergonomics will be complicated to deal with.

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Old 03-18-2007   #4
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Several years ago, a company attempted to make something like that: a roughly film-shaped combination of sensor and memory and battery. It suffered from several problems, the ones I remember are that resolution was lagging behind what was then currently available in a truly digital camera and more importantly, problems in compatibility. As it transpires, you needed a slightly different version of the thing for each camera - especially the more electronic ones get confused if they don't 'feel' film. This makes mass-production difficult, so projected costs were high etc. I don't think it ever made it to the market and the company just disappeared.

See these for names:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0001/00...iliconfilm.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0102/01...sp#siliconfilm

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Old 03-19-2007   #5
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It's doable but then who wants to develop such a system? It'd be nice if Leica would do it but it appears that they are now focused more on M8.
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Old 03-19-2007   #6
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who would want to do it??

well, i suppose that depends on the price. if a reasonable digital back for an M was available for let's say, less that that of an R-D1.

I think it would be more marketable than both the m8 & r-d1 due to the amount of M cameras out there...even at a $2000 price tag.

make it like a grip that's already sold for the m camera.

Leica, Cosina, Tom A., Steve Gandy... are you listening??



Quote:
Originally Posted by stric
It's doable but then who wants to develop such a system? It'd be nice if Leica would do it but it appears that they are now focused more on M8.
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Old 03-19-2007   #7
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I think it's a good idea. Like the DMR, but a DM...M.

It could even use one of those nice monochrome sensors for B&W, so you could use color filters in front of lens like with B&W film.
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Old 03-19-2007   #8
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Clearly all the required digital guts fit into an M body--the M8 proves that. Maybe a digital back would be a little bulkier, like adding the Motor-M or a Leicavit. It would allow the legions of collectors and fanciers to shoot the M body of their choice by swapping the digital back from one to the other. Leica did the same thing with the R, except there are very few collectors/fanciers of R equipment so it was really a waste--and has been discontinued. It looks like another example of Leica being out of tune with what their major market would go for, which happened frequently over the years.

Still, FWIW I haven't seen any evidence yet that Leica has a firm grasp on digital (a camera capable of great resolution and sharpness, but that requires add-on filters and shuts itself off without warning is not "firm grasp" to me), so I'll be happy to continue shooting my Leicas with film, and use Canon whenever I happen to want to shoot digital.
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Old 03-19-2007   #9
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The R8/9 has a lot of contacts to interface the camera with the digital back, although made for motordrive and databack they can be used to control the sensor and support electronics.

One could use just the flash sync to trigger the digital guts of the camera as we see in Hassy 500 and LF cameras with digital backs, but I think that's not an elegant solution.
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Old 03-19-2007   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMan2k
I think it's a good idea. Like the DMR, but a DM...M.
Let's call it a DAM Leica!!! (Digital Analog M) Leica
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Old 03-19-2007   #11
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>Leica, Cosina, Tom A., Steve Gandy... are you listening??

I'm listening. Let's do it.

There has to be enough collective brain power within the RFf community.

I know for a fact that some people here have already started doing some research.

Sure it is impossible but so were lots and lots other things until someone did it.
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Old 03-19-2007   #12
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Quote:
Huw (over on photo.net) tried to convert an M2 to digital while keeping everything within the camera body. It was supposed to be shown on April 1 of last year and nobody has heard from him since the middle of last March.
Last I heard, Leica had found out about Huw's project, bought the rights, and then slapped a non-disclosure clause on the whole shooting match. Seemed Huw's project was turning out better pictures than the M8 LOL!
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Old 03-19-2007   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray
Let's call it a DAM Leica!!! (Digital Analog M) Leica
Hahaha



But yeah, I would totally buy a silicon-film-like product for my M.
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Old 03-21-2007   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungle Jim
Last I heard, Leica had found out about Huw's project, bought the rights, and then slapped a non-disclosure clause on the whole shooting match. Seemed Huw's project was turning out better pictures than the M8 LOL!
Satire, I assume?
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Old 03-21-2007   #15
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if the really had something like a digital slap on thing for an m film camera that I could use without mangling the camera to death, I would buy it in a heart beat, but then again its never going to happen
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Old 03-21-2007   #16
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Me, I want to know if it's possible to take an M8, lift the LCD, open the bottom, take out all the guts, put tuem in my shirt pocket, then inseft a Tri-X and shoot away?
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Old 03-23-2007   #17
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I can't see it at Leica prices but I do wonder if CV couldn't fit a sensor, basic electronics, SD card and battery into the Bessa body. Forget the screen and all the bells and whistles (except for ISO selector and exposure count), essentially just replace film with SD card/sensor combination with everything else being done in the pc..

shouldn't be any bulkier than the current Bessas.
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Old 03-23-2007   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j
I can't see it at Leica prices but I do wonder if CV couldn't fit a sensor, basic electronics, SD card and battery into the Bessa body. Forget the screen and all the bells and whistles (except for ISO selector and exposure count), essentially just replace film with SD card/sensor combination with everything else being done in the pc..

shouldn't be any bulkier than the current Bessas.
Mike,

They did - with Epson.
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Old 03-23-2007   #19
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Some of this was discussed on another recent thread. Plugging into the x-xync could be used to trigger the digital capture, since x-sync is triggered by the opening shutter curtain.
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Old 03-23-2007   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gid
Mike,

They did - with Epson.
Well yes and no. they still had the screen and most of the bells and whistles and treble the film price - I was thinking of a rally minimalist approach.
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Old 03-23-2007   #21
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Well, if you had an existing M body, the amount of money spent on a digital back could nail you a nice film scanner and quite a few rolls of your favorite ____


If only they would have built an MP with a digital sensor and a very well blended LCD (and no automatic after-picture preview )

I mean just because you arent advancing film, who said nobody wanted a manual cloth shutter? Oh well, its been said.
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Old 03-23-2007   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black_box
Well, if you had an existing M body, the amount of money spent on a digital back could nail you a nice film scanner and quite a few rolls of your favorite ____


If only they would have built an MP with a digital sensor and a very well blended LCD (and no automatic after-picture preview )

I mean just because you arent advancing film, who said nobody wanted a manual cloth shutter? Oh well, its been said.
I have to admit, that, from a purist perspective, Leica lost the plot. If they had produced such a beast - effectively the Leica version of the R-D1, they may have ended up with a more successful product. The end result is very, very good - the image, that is - but the M8 is not really a Leica M in the traditional sense - more a caricature.
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Old 03-23-2007   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Z
Clearly all the required digital guts fit into an M body--the M8 proves that. Maybe a digital back would be a little bulkier, like adding the Motor-M or a Leicavit.
Not really. The M8 has the R shutter for more reasons than just a higher speed. I don't think that they could fit the sensor behind the cloth curtains.

Not to mention that all of this is a bit silly, the DMR requires no surgery to the R because the back comes off. Not so on an M.

You want a digital back on an M? Get an M8. Take pictures. Be happy.
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Old 03-23-2007   #24
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To further the purists point... continuous shooting? Cmon. Its like stepping into SLR territory and voluntarily loosing (w/ 2fps). Soon we're going to have an SLR with rangefinder focusing.
I dont disagree with a digital M, and honestly I really like the M8 and wish I had one... but little details make it less 'rangefinder' like. I mean whats going to happen in a year when a super efficient sensor comes out that has some mega dynamic range-- release an M9 eighteen months after the M8?
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Old 03-26-2007   #25
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fellow R-finders,
I posted on R-D1 and M8 forums a few weeks back...
I'm planning on gutting an M2 and a D-SLR to build my own D-RF. I'd originally considered making a hybrid R-D1 and M6 - incorporating the R-D1 electronics into a modified M6 body - keeping the M6 rangefinder - with an M winder body shell to house components that would not fit into the M6 (so as to maintain the original lines as much as possible).
Didn't get much in the way of +ve support for the venture - no matter. I'm aware of Huw Finney's M2ad project - about which there has been little news recently. Being more mechanically minded than electronically adroit I'm happy to adapt existing technology.
I've now acquired a Fuji S1 SLR for its electronic bits and plan to place these in an M2 with M winder. The easier route is to transpose all the relevant innerds from the S1 - including its shutter. Ideally I would prefer to keep the M2 shutter.

A question for the floor: how can I use the X-sync on the Leica shutter to synchronise with the S1 CCD at all Leica shutter speeds? is it possible to modify the X-sync to work from 1/1000s?
Thanks for any help - any other suggestions most welcome.
Carl

ps I;ve chosen the S1 - for price - the fact that it is a hybrid camera already - combining a Nikon film body with a digital interface...
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Old 03-26-2007   #26
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The x-sync is only live when the shutter is fully open; I don’t think you can use it to switch the electronics on.
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Old 03-26-2007   #27
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Not to switch on the electronics, but to let the image sensor "know" when to capture.
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Old 03-26-2007   #28
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If he wants the full range of speeds the m2 sync needs to switch on the chip, open and close the shutter, then switch off the chip. With the x-sync the shutter opens, the x-sync switches on and off then the shutter closes, that’s why it only works at slower speeds.
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Old 03-26-2007   #29
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Silly old me!!! Just use the fp-sync, that works the correct way round
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Old 03-26-2007   #30
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I think a user is capable of manually switching on the device and knowing when to turn it off to switch batteries.

The x-sync is only useful for strobe photography at 1/50 and below because, in order to function correctly, the opening curtain must be all the way open and the closing curtain not yet starting to close, in order for the strobe to illuminate the full frame. As is done with digital SLRs, an electronic capture device is able to behave much like film when recording the image of a moving narrow slit on higher speed Leica shutters.

The point here is to let the sensor "know" when to record an image.

Also, does the M2 have flash-bulb settings? These typically trigger earlier -- such as when the opening curtain begins to open -- in order to allow the flash bulb to reach maximum illumation. That might be technically helpful.

But it strikes me that Leica users want an image the precise instant they snap the shutter -- hence x-sync, not some built-in delay mechanism.
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Old 03-26-2007   #31
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Well, to use an electronic sensor with the cloth shutter should be perfectly doable , it just requires the electronic exposure to begin before the first curtain is released and end after the second curtain has closed. To avoid excessive image noise the duration of the electronic exposure should be as close to the actual one as possible, though.

I have never looked inside a M camera but in the FED/Zorki cameras (which should have a similar shutter construction, right?) the shutter button extends all the way to the bottom of the shutter mechanism where an activation microswitch could easily be placed to detect the start of the exposure. A real simple way to handle the end (which would not work with bulb, though) would be to always do a 1 sec electronic exposure.

Gutting a DSLR for this type of construction does bring the problem of (binary) patching the firmware not to detect the lack of operational electronic shutter and mirror parts.

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Old 03-26-2007   #32
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Quote:
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A real simple way to handle the end (which would not work with bulb, though) would be to always do a 1 sec electronic exposure.
I have a feeling that there would be some serious noise at higher ISO levels though...

I'd suggest having the sensor turn on w/ the the trigger button. maybe even making it a momentary closed loop while the trigger is depressed, allowing the image to be recorded only in that instant. Obviously this wouldnt work very well if you were to just "snap" the button, but if you were to hold it down for the duration of the exposure, then you wouldnt have a problem. it would work w/ bulb, too!
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Old 03-26-2007   #33
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The trigger button adds unnecessary and, as mentioned, unreliable linkages. Electronic flash couplings have been reliably used for more than 55 years to sense the activation of shutter curtains. I think firmware could sense the light loss with the closure of the trailing curtain. You could also create a second coupling to sense the closing of the trailing curtain. It would also not be difficult to create an electronic contact that knowns the position selected for the shutter-speed dial. In this case, you're going to have to modify a specific body instead of make an add-on device.
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Old 03-27-2007   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NL2377
I have a feeling that there would be some serious noise at higher ISO levels though...

I'd suggest having the sensor turn on w/ the the trigger button. maybe even making it a momentary closed loop while the trigger is depressed, allowing the image to be recorded only in that instant. Obviously this wouldnt work very well if you were to just "snap" the button, but if you were to hold it down for the duration of the exposure, then you wouldnt have a problem. it would work w/ bulb, too!
If it is possible to sense when the second curtain closes one could probably always have the gutted DSLR in bulb mode and get electronic exposures that matches the real exposure in length (under the assumption that the firmeware can handle really short bulb exposures). An interesting problem is how to deal with the initial shutter delay of the DSLR electronics - I have no idea how large it might be but some milliseconds could be plausible.

To me the key interface between the mechanical and electronic part of the camera seems to be the detection of:
1. The opening of the first curtain (or preferably an event some milliseconds before this) and
2. The closing of the second curtain.

If the flash sync provides this all is well, otherwise some kind of modification to the camera is needed to detect these events.

Cheers,

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