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Old 01-15-2019   #321
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Again, just conjecture, wishful thinking, and refusal to reply to any logic/facts that have been presented to debunk your theory and associated conclusions. On top of that, *do your research* is not an argument.

It's up to *you* to present the evidence that resulted from *your* research that back up your position that new camera models are justified and inevitable. This is how one presents an argument.

In 9 pages, you've failed to do this. As has been previously stated what you've presented is evidence that the film industry continues, which should not take 9 pages and is quite obvious.
 

Old 01-15-2019   #322
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I've changed my mind. No, yes, no, errm wait: additionally I want an Italian-designed, made-in-UK Zeiss Ikon rangefinder that can use Contarex lenses, plus all lenses that were ever made in France. The camera's size and weight should match that of a Linhof, please
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Old 01-15-2019   #323
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I doubt that will happen for a mass audience, too. Unless you count Instax and Lomography as mass audience. For a niche audience, most probably it will happen. And who cares about the mass audience? We’re niche customers, and I’m more interested in what happens for us.
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Old 01-15-2019   #324
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Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
So what is happening here is that you're projecting or assigning your values (wanting a new camera, wanting to process yourself, wanting to send your film away, wanting to buy sight unseen) to a wider market which you erroneously think you represent. This is seen by your use of WE but without presenting data and an accurate sample space "we" is just an arbitrary group. An opinion.
Phil Forrest
Well.. i found a good number of film camera blogs and Instagram users who think alongside. When i read comments and check the number of followers i make the assumption those people are interested in film cameras. Unless they are all haters. Maybe nothing is real. Maybe i am alone. Maybe i hear voices in my head.
 

Old 01-15-2019   #325
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Again, just conjecture, wishful thinking, and refusal to reply to any logic/facts that have been presented to debunk your theory and associated conclusions. On top of that, *do your research* is not an argument.

It's up to *you* to present the evidence that resulted from *your* research that back up your position that new camera models are justified and inevitable. This is how one presents an argument.

In 9 pages, you've failed to do this. As has been previously stated what you've presented is evidence that the film industry continues, which should not take 9 pages and is quite obvious.
Ok. Another internet winner.
I mentioned Ilford, Ferrania. There is Adox. Street pan. Rollei. KOdak is selling Ektachrome again!!! A major investment. Cinestill.

And then there is Lomo selling cameras.

The dozens of film camera blogs and hundreds of followers. The hundreds of YouTube videos..
But you "demand" data which i did not provide. You did not approve my evidences. LOL-
 

Old 01-15-2019   #326
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I never said there was big money. I said itīs a niche market and today niche markets are part of the moving economy. Those markets also represent numbers.
Canon and Nikon aren`t really niche market players though are they?

Quote:
Leica is a boutique store?
Yes, I guess they don`t have one in your city, but there are many... right next to other luxury boutique stores. As someone with their pulse on the thriving film industry, how could you have missed this?

Quote:
When young people adopt a consumer habit be it part of their creative lives, corporations pay attention because where young people is where things grow. If they donīt pay attention to youthīs consumer habits, companies die.
It is also where fads happen and if you are not careful, you can lose a lot. Ask the skateboarding, fashion, and music industry how fickle youth can be. A brand/band is hot one moment, and uncool the next...
 

Old 01-15-2019   #327
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Ok. Another internet winner.
I mentioned Ilford, Ferrania. There is Adox. Street pan. Rollei. KOdak is selling Ektachrome again!!! A major investment. Cinestill.

And then there is Lomo selling cameras.

The dozens of film camera blogs and hundreds of followers. The hundreds of YouTube videos..
But you "demand" data which i did not provide. You did not approve my evidences. LOL-
HUNDREDS?
 

Old 01-15-2019   #328
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Ok. Another internet winner.
I mentioned Ilford, Ferrania. There is Adox. Street pan. Rollei. KOdak is selling Ektachrome again!!! A major investment. Cinestill.

And then there is Lomo selling cameras.

The dozens of film camera blogs and hundreds of followers. The hundreds of YouTube videos..
But you "demand" data which i did not provide. You did not approve my evidences. LOL-
This is simply evidence that a film industry exists...how many film stocks have been discontinued, as compared to the single that has been resurrected?

Nothing has been presented to indicate that there is significant growth in film sales to catch the interest of the Canikons to build new film cams.

Nice try, I appreciate your enthusiasm, and hope there will be continued suppliers in this little niche.
 

Old 01-15-2019   #329
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Aaaaaand just like that Fujifilm discontinues another Superia film.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...-japan.164772/

Another sign of Fujifilm's legendary commitment to film.
 

Old 01-15-2019   #330
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Canon and Nikon aren`t really niche market players though are they?

Yes, I guess they don`t have one in your city, but there are many... right next to other luxury boutique stores. As someone with their pulse on the thriving film industry, how could you have missed this?

It is also where fads happen and if you are not careful, you can lose a lot. Ask the skateboarding, fashion, and music industry how fickle youth can be. A brand/band is hot one moment, and uncool the next...
"Canon and Nikon aren`t really niche market players though are they?"

They can be both: niche and major player. Nikon keeps doing it. All big camera companies did the niche thing. The X pan is a niche camera. Rollei 35 was a niche camera. Nikon DF is a niche camera. I donīt follow Canonīs line up so i canīt comment on them.
Is Leica a niche company? No: they sell high end digital cameras. Whatīs niche about that? Otoh they sell mechanical film rangefinders. Fujifilm turned a niche idea, X100, into a success.

"Yes, I guess they don`t have one in your city, but there are many... right next to other luxury boutique stores. As someone with their pulse on the thriving film industry, how could you have missed this? "
I wonīt even bother trying to understand whatever you didnīt get from what i wrote.

"It is also where fads happen and if you are not careful, you can lose a lot. Ask the skateboarding, fashion, and music industry how fickle youth can be. A brand/band is hot one moment, and uncool the next.."
Really? Wow. So?.... You want a no risk success story? Either feel the pulse of the market or go home.
 

Old 01-15-2019   #331
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This is simply evidence that a film industry exists...how many film stocks have been discontinued, as compared to the single that has been resurrected?

Nothing has been presented to indicate that there is significant growth in film sales to catch the interest of the Canikons to build new film cams.

Nice try, I appreciate your enthusiasm, and hope there will be continued suppliers in this little niche.
Nothing will be presented. Itīs an opinion forum.
I just tell it like i see it. You donīt agree? fine. If you are right no one will be posting pictures done on film in a couple years. If i am right, you will see an advanced electronics AF film camera being launched by one of the major players. RF or SLR. Itīs a fun bet.

I donīt need to convince you nor i want to. If you were Nikon or Canon, maybe i would try... maybe...
 

Old 01-15-2019   #332
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HUNDREDS?
Oh.. how many followers combined have Japan Camera Hunter, 35mmc, Casual Photophile, Steve Huff? 10?... Now bring in Instagram: how many followers on Japan camera style, Ilford? I wonīt even mention all Leica Instagram accounts since Leica is film and digital..
And yet you say itīs BS a number of hundred followers? Make it a thousand. Ten thousand.

indeed.
 

Old 01-15-2019   #333
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I think film sales are rising that seems to be the case in my nearest camera shop, but they have risen from virtually none to very low. I don't think film camera sales have risen, a lot of film sales must come from users that have been given an old camera or found one up parents etc attic.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #334
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They can be both: niche and major player. Nikon keeps doing it. All big camera companies did the niche thing. The X pan is a niche camera. Rollei 35 was a niche camera. Nikon DF is a niche camera. I donīt follow Canonīs line up so i canīt comment on them.
The X-Pan was a high end / low volume release ... made during a time when film was widely used and the companies were making a lot of different film cameras. Now you are asking a company to remake this film camera without thinking about the fact that they are not making any film cameras. Do you understand how much they have to do in order to make a camera from an infrastructure standpoint? The Rollei 35 was a huge success and was not niche at all. The Nikon Df is a reskinned D610 with a D4 sensor...

Quote:
Is Leica a niche company? No: they sell high end digital cameras. Whatīs niche about that? Otoh they sell mechanical film rangefinders. Fujifilm turned a niche idea, X100, into a success.
Yes, Leica is a niche company because they do not sell in huge volumes. They are also a luxury boutique company. They are not trying to compete with Sony, Nikon, and Canon on volume. That makes them niche.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #335
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Oh.. how many followers combined have Japan Camera Hunter, 35mmc, Casual Photophile, Steve Huff? 10?... Now bring in Instagram: how many followers on Japan camera style, Ilford? I wonīt even mention all Leica Instagram accounts since Leica is film and digital..
And yet you say itīs BS a number of hundred followers? Make it a thousand. Ten thousand.

indeed.
I didn`t say hundreds, you did.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #336
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The X-Pan was a high end / low volume release ... made during a time when film was widely used and the companies were making a lot of different film cameras. Now you are asking a company to remake this film camera without thinking about the fact that they are not making any film cameras. Do you understand how much they have to do in order to make a camera from an infrastructure standpoint? The Rollei 35 was a huge success and was not niche at all. The Nikon Df is a reskinned D610 with a D4 sensor...

Yes, Leica is a niche company because they do not sell in huge volumes. They are also a luxury boutique company. They are not trying to compete with Sony, Nikon, and Canon on volume. That makes them niche.
The Rollei 35 is a high end zone focus camera. There isnīt a more niche concept.. It sold well proving its worth investing in high concept cameras.. just like a film camera nowadays would be.

The Xpan is another high concept camera that cannot be thought as anything but a niche product. It was made in low quantities therefore its tall prices on the used market. That does not make Hasselblad a niche company. It would be ludicrous to call them such thing. Otoh how many digital cameras does HBlad sells? They are VERY expensive. Is it a niche company? Or is it a high end digital camera company as Leica?

Photo gear companies do it all the time: they invest on niche products.

Do you want to separate niche companies from mainstream based on product or sales? When Leica looked for a partnership w/ Minolta, Leica made it clear it thought of itself as a mainstream camera company.

No matter where the Nikon Df came from. At its price tag, it would be hard to sell in huge numbers. It was a high concept digital camera w/ LESS features. It did not make video. Nikon titanium compact was also a high concept high end compact camera w/ a tall price. Nikon is willing to do niche cameras. It brings them recognition as an avant garde company.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #337
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I didn`t say hundreds, you did.
I didnīt want to sound too optimistic.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #338
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The Rollei 35 is a high end zone focus camera. There isnīt a more niche concept.. It sold well proving itīs worth investing in high concept cameras.. just like a film camera nowadays would be.
But at the time, they were making a lot of film cameras. AND it sold for 50 years! Now they are not making 35mm film cameras at all. It is not easy to design a new camera, make an assembly line, market it, and sell it for a normal price that can compare with used prices when film is not being sold in the volumes it used to be.

Quote:
The Xpan is another high concept camera that cannot be thought as anything but a niche product. It was made in low quantities therefore its tall prices on the used market. That does not make Hasselblad a niche company. It would be ludicrous to cal them such thing. Otoh how many digital cameras does HBlad sells? They are VERY expensive. Is it a niche company? Or is it a high end digital camera company as Leica?
Hasselblad is certainly a niche company. They cater to a small group. Niche simply means "a specialized market."

Quote:
Photo gear companies do it all the time: they invest on niche products.
I agree, but only when it makes sense to. If a company is currently not making any film cameras, it is not easy to get back into that business and just do it again.... based on a small uptick on film sales.

Quote:
Do you want to separate niche companies from mainstream based on product or sales? When Leica looked for a partnership w/ Minolta, Leica made it clear it thought of itself as a mainstream camera company.
Really? I thought they just needed Minolta`s expertise in making the SLR they wanted to make. Also, this was 30-40 years ago. Leica isn`t sold in Best Buy. They are sold in serious camera stores and its own boutique stores.

Quote:
No matter where the Nikon Df came from. At its price tag, it would be hard to sell in huge numbers. It was a high concept digital camera w/ LESS features. It did not make video. Nikon titanium compact was also a high concept high end compact camera w/ a tall price. Nikon is willing to do niche cameras. It brings them recognition as an avant garde company.
Yes, you are correct. They were willing to make a niche film camera when all they made were film cameras just like they were willing to make a niche digital camera when they are making mostly digital cameras.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #339
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Nothing will be presented. Itīs an opinion forum.
I just tell it like i see it. You donīt agree? fine. If you are right no one will be posting pictures done on film in a couple years. If i am right, you will see an advanced electronics AF film camera being launched by one of the major players. RF or SLR. Itīs a fun bet.
Somehow you've imagined my position.

If your wish is correct, here is what will occur:

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I want Nikon to sell us something in the 1k price range for camera body! And lenses in the $600 range... W/ nikon pro quality.
I'm a skeptic of that conclusion, for all the reasons posted earlier.

Here is another reason: it wasn't that long ago that Canon discontinued their last film camera. However they actually stopped producing the camera much earlier, 8 years earlier in fact...it took that long to sell them.

I've never said or even implied "no one will be posting pictures done on film in a couple of years."

Film will most certainly continue.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #340
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Somehow you've imagined my position.

If your wish is correct, here is what will occur:
"Originally Posted by colker I want Nikon to sell us something in the 1k price range for camera body! And lenses in the $600 range... W/ nikon pro quality."

I'm a skeptic of that conclusion, for all the reasons posted earlier.

Here is another reason: it wasn't that long ago that Canon discontinued their last film camera. However they actually stopped producing the camera much earlier, 8 years earlier in fact...it took that long to sell them.

I've never said or even implied "no one will be posting pictures done on film in a couple of years."

Film will most certainly continue.
I donīt know Canon. Nikon still fabricates a film camera.. the F6. Itīs an expensive camera. They could trickle it down to a 1k film model. I donīt know if they will..
 

Old 01-16-2019   #341
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I donīt know Canon. Nikon still fabricates a film camera.. the F6. Itīs an expensive camera. They could trickle it down to a 1k film model. I donīt know if they will..
That had a sub 1000 film camera the FM10... discontinued 2017. The chances of bringing back a new model film block seem to be zero sir.
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Old 01-16-2019   #342
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I donīt know Canon. Nikon still fabricates a film camera.. the F6. Itīs an expensive camera. They could trickle it down to a 1k film model. I donīt know if they will..
This is a little bit of a possibility... really.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #343
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The dozens of film camera blogs and hundreds of followers. The hundreds of YouTube videos..
Don't look now, but even digital photography has its blogs and Youtube videos...
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Old 01-16-2019   #344
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Don't look now, but even digital photography has its blogs and Youtube videos...
Itīs exactly my point.. Both digital and film are markets to cater.
 

Old 01-16-2019   #345
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Well Nikon did, in 2000 and 2005.

I mean, it was a limited-run, special remake of their classic S3 and SP rangefinders, but still - who else has ever done such a thing?

I have a Nikon SP 2005 and if things get really dire in film manufacturing I'll buy as much bulk 35mm I can and shoot that camera forever.
This ^^^^
The price would be astronomical.
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Old 01-16-2019   #346
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This is a little bit of a possibility... really.
And we know Nikon can be quite temperamental w/ their decisions. Those classic rangefinders reenactments. The FM3A. Keeping the F6 alive

My gut feeling says Nikon wants to be legendary. They wonīt give up easily from that charismatic behavior. I hope!
 

Old 01-17-2019   #347
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Nikon is already legendary no?
 

Old 01-17-2019   #348
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Nikon is already legendary no?
Exactly. They wonīt step down from the greatness, from their perceived role.

A legend keeps returning to its legendary actions. Mythology 101.

You mean they could retire, sit by the porch and conform till some other brand dethrones?
 

Old 01-17-2019   #349
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Nikon is already legendary no?
Donīt they have market analysers telling them all it was said here about how small is the RF market and how impractical is film? Are they silly? Old and stupid?

Why did Nikon release the S3 then the SP or the FM3A? Was it a move to make a couple bucks? Or was it to show they have a love for their own photographic tradition?
 

Old 01-17-2019   #350
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Canīt Nikon risk another couple bucks and show everyone they are still the leading force when it comes to winds of change in the photo world?
Itīs funny when Nikon seems way more risk taking in the name of photographic tardition and excelence than you guys on a rangefinder forum love fest..
 

Old 01-17-2019   #351
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What is known is that Nikon lost a lot of money on those, and the photographic industry was enormously different 19+ years ago than it is today...

Would be really cool, no doubt, for them to re-issue or modernize a new film camera, but the chances of a repeat are somewhere between slim and none.
 

Old 01-17-2019   #352
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What is known is that Nikon lost a lot of money on those, and the photographic industry was enormously different 19+ years ago than it is today...

Would be really cool, no doubt, for them to re-issue or modernize a new film camera, but the chances of a repeat are somewhere between slim and none.
How do you know what are the chances? You donīt.

Did Nikon expect to make any money on those RF reissues? Tell me..:
 

Old 01-17-2019   #353
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How do you know what are the chances? You donīt.

Did Nikon expected to make money on those RF reissues? Tell me..:
Well we can say with certainty that Nikon didn't make enough money to keep those cameras in production. Nikon would not leave money on the table.
 

Old 01-17-2019   #354
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Well we can say with certainty that Nikon didnt make enough money to keep those cameras in production. Nikon would not leave money on the table.
Did they ever intend to keep those cameras in production? The SP and S3 reissues were limited editions.

Btw.. i am not pretending S3 or SP reissue should be the measure of Nikon for any new film camera.
On the contrary.. i bet on a contemporary design w/ nostalgia touches here and there. Film.. but electronics. Mechanical may be too expensive.
 

Old 01-17-2019   #355
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Did they ever intend to keep those cameras in production? The SP and S3 reissues were limited editions.

Btw.. i am not pretending S3 or SP reissue should be the measure of Nikon for any new film camera.
On the contrary.. i bet on a contemporary design w/ nostalgia touches here and there. Film.. but electronics. Mechanical may be too expensive.
Clearly the release of these cameras was a way for Nikon to measure the demand for a new film camera. Had there been staggering demand you can be very certain that Nikon would have filled that demand.

The demand was not there.
 

Old 01-17-2019   #356
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Clearly the release of these cameras was a way for Nikon to measure the demand for a new film camera. Had there been staggering demand you can be very certain that Nikon would have filled that demand.

The demand was not there.
Clearly?? Are you kidding? Nikon launched a 5 thousand dollar camera w/ no meter to assess the interest in a film revival?

You are joking right?

Nikon was showing off. Nothing else.

If they wanted to measure interest in film they would launch 700 dollar camera, auto focus and 3 auto meter programs.
 

Old 01-17-2019   #357
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That could be doable. Does Nikon have any big name pro that still uses film at times?
 

Old 01-17-2019   #358
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That could be doable. Does Nikon have any big name pro that still uses film at times?
they work w/ photojournalists and wildlife photographers. It would not be hard for them to look around and find a couple names in fine arts to patronize. Thatīs where film has been mostly active.
 

Old 01-17-2019   #359
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What kind of cameras do fine art photographers use?
Phil Forrest
 

Old 01-17-2019   #360
colker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
What kind of cameras do fine art photographers use?
Phil Forrest
All kinds. 35mm. 120. 8x10.
 
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