Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Gearhead Delights > Repair / Camera Care

Repair / Camera Care This is a good place to discuss the care and repair of your photo gear. You can share Do-It-Yourself repair and maintenance, as well as your recommendations for pro repairs. This new forum was created 4/1/07. PLEASE title your thread wisely, so others searching for a certain make of camera or repair person can find your thread easily!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Diagnosing Banding Not shutter, not developing streaks...
Old 10-24-2018   #1
Takkun
Ian M.
 
Takkun's Avatar
 
Takkun is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny South Seattle
Posts: 729
Diagnosing Banding Not shutter, not developing streaks...


Excuse the terrible photo, but it shows what's going on.

Souped my first roll of Silvermax (Xtol 1+1 for 9m, a bit thin but useable) out of a Bessa R3a, and some, but not all, frames have this strange banding. Sometimes, like this one, it's a lighter strip with a darker band to the left, in others, it's just a darker band. Nothing like this on the last roll I shot through this camera, which was TMY.

What it's not:

Scanner: It's visible in the negs.
Shutter: Vertical-travel shutter, this is always a vertical bar.
Development: No streaking across the frame, always in the same spot on the left. Not like what I've seen with stand dev gone wrong.
Light Leak: Uniform density change, nothing between frames. The bars are usually darker, not lighter. Where they are lighter, like in this example, it does go into the rebate/sprocket hole area.
Bulk Loader Leak: Again, uniform location in the frame.

Any ideas? I'm guessing it didn't get fed into the reel correctly, but I'd assume these bands would appear somewhat randomly.
__________________
Ian M., Seattle
Current bag contents: Bronica SQ-A, Mamiya C33.

currently trying to find a use for a Nikon D2.
--
my infrequently updated blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #2
retinax
Registered User
 
retinax is offline
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 824
Are you absolutely certain that the band is sometimes darker in the positive? That's very odd. If it weren't for that, I'd say light leak from the hinge.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #3
Bill Clark
Registered User
 
Bill Clark's Avatar
 
Bill Clark is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minnetonka, Minnesota
Age: 71
Posts: 2,500
Vertical shutter.
Vertical light on neg.
Same spot.

Shutter issue? Maybe something around the edges (gasket) causing it?

What make of camera?

Nikon?

My Nikkormat has vertical travel shutter.
__________________
I make photographs as a return ticket to a moment otherwise gone.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #4
Carlos Cruz
Registered User
 
Carlos Cruz is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 169
Is there any chance you're bulk loading and your stock went through X-rays? Try developing some unexposed stock.

https://www.kodak.com/global/en/serv.../tib5201.shtml
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #5
Larry H-L
Registered User
 
Larry H-L is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 576
The way it fades off makes it seem like a light leak to me. But wouldn't the leak would be on the closure side, not the hinge side (remember, the picture in-camera is upside down), Bessas have the hinge on the left???

If the camera sits for a long time, is it more likely that the first new frame has the banding? If frames taken in quick succession don't show it, that is another indication of a light leak.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #6
Peter Jennings
Registered User
 
Peter Jennings's Avatar
 
Peter Jennings is offline
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Seoul
Posts: 560
Perhaps some kind of flare from a surface in the camera? It's hitting the film at an angle, so the dark band is caused by the film gate blocking the flare.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #7
Malcolm M
Registered User
 
Malcolm M's Avatar
 
Malcolm M is offline
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 49
If it's always in the same place on the negs, it must be happening in camera. It it's affecting the areas outside the image, then it's presumably not during exposure. Could it be fogged leaving the cassette? The dark band is unfogged film in the cassette, and the light band fogged immediately outside the felt?
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #8
retinax
Registered User
 
retinax is offline
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry H-L View Post
The way it fades off makes it seem like a light leak to me. But wouldn't the leak would be on the closure side, not the hinge side (remember, the picture in-camera is upside down), Bessas have the hinge on the left???

If the camera sits for a long time, is it more likely that the first new frame has the banding? If frames taken in quick succession don't show it, that is another indication of a light leak.

The hinge is on the right from the camera user's perspective. In any case in can't be from the other side as the cassette is there. The light would be falling on the frame that was last exposed and moved to the take-up spool already.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #9
Arbitrarium
Registered User
 
Arbitrarium's Avatar
 
Arbitrarium is offline
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm M View Post
If it's affecting the areas outside the image, then it's presumably not during exposure. Could it be fogged leaving the cassette? The dark band is unfogged film in the cassette, and the light band fogged immediately outside the felt?
This is my assumption too. A leak happening in the gap between the film canister and the pressure plate.
__________________
Arbitrarium on Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #10
Takkun
Ian M.
 
Takkun's Avatar
 
Takkun is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny South Seattle
Posts: 729


Here's a better look at the negatives, the above frame and its neighbor.

As I mentioned, this is a Bessa, hinged back. Film being exposed upside down, this means whatever it is, is on the right side of the camera, so likely not a leak on the canister/film reminder window side.

But note the strip of less density in the preceding frame. Less, not more, like something's blocking the light.

As I'm often prone to do, a few blank shots and overexposed shots (coming outside and forgetting to change exposure, vice versa) and neither effect shows up in those.

A few minutes ago I wasted a few frames and cycled the shutter on B-nothing obstructing, shutter looks to be operating properly.

It's baffling.
__________________
Ian M., Seattle
Current bag contents: Bronica SQ-A, Mamiya C33.

currently trying to find a use for a Nikon D2.
--
my infrequently updated blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #11
retinax
Registered User
 
retinax is offline
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 824
Whoa this is baffling. How can one get less exposure in part of the image if it's not the shutter? Seems impossible, there would need to be something like an piece of ND-filter in front of the film, there is a good amount of exposure after all... is this the extremely unlikely event of two faults at the same time?
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #12
Takkun
Ian M.
 
Takkun's Avatar
 
Takkun is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny South Seattle
Posts: 729
Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Whoa this is baffling. How can one get less exposure in part of the image if it's not the shutter? Seems impossible, there would need to be something like an piece of ND-filter in front of the film, there is a good amount of exposure after all... is this the extremely unlikely event of two faults at the same time?
I know, right? I should have posted both images rather than just the one that looks suspiciously like a light leak. Most of them have the strip of low density (example on the left) and only a handful have an additional strip of higher density that extends past the frame. Images are sharp, so nothing warping it in the film path or anything.

One thought was that there was a small sliver of film, left over from trimming, somewhere in the light path. Couldn't find anything.

On the plus side, I think these negs were a little underexposed and needed another minute in the soup, but I'm blown away by the tonal range regardless!
__________________
Ian M., Seattle
Current bag contents: Bronica SQ-A, Mamiya C33.

currently trying to find a use for a Nikon D2.
--
my infrequently updated blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #13
Steve M.
Registered User
 
Steve M. is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,306
Probably a light leak. Tape up the camera's back with electrical tape along every seam and try another roll. Or, take the camera into a closet, remove the lens, and shine a bright light into the front and see if there is light leaking around the back door. If it were me I would just replace the camera's seals in the back and be done with it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #14
Larry H-L
Registered User
 
Larry H-L is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 576
I don't think frame # 2A has less density at left.

To me, it looks as if the left side of that frame is normally exposed, and the entire 7/8ths right side of that frame has additional exposure from light leak fogging.

Look closely at the sprocket area... it is fogged compared to 1A-2.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #15
Takkun
Ian M.
 
Takkun's Avatar
 
Takkun is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny South Seattle
Posts: 729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry H-L View Post
I don't think frame # 2A has less density at left.

To me, it looks as if the left side of that frame is normally exposed, and the entire 7/8ths right side of that frame has additional exposure from light leak fogging.

Look closely at the sprocket area... it is fogged compared to 1A-2.
I think you're right. It's very, very hard to tell, but that looks to be the case, and the bands that are strongest are on frames where I went a little while without taking pictures. I shot the whole roll in about two hours between two locations (interior/exterior), and they show up strongest on the first shot of the new area.

So that changes my hypothesis a bit. Lining up the preceding frame to the film gate, the 'dark' band on the next frame corresponds exactly to the bit between the edge of the gate and the cassette chamber. Meaning that, with the rest of the frame other than the band fogged, light is getting into the bit between the cassette lip and the rails. Hence the bright spot when the film is sitting fo a while, and fogging as the film is advanced.

The seal (with this camera there's only one bit of foam around the indicator window, the rest are light traps) looks fine, no squishing or distorting. I wonder if the cassette itself wasn't seated fully.
__________________
Ian M., Seattle
Current bag contents: Bronica SQ-A, Mamiya C33.

currently trying to find a use for a Nikon D2.
--
my infrequently updated blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #16
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
 
JoeV's Avatar
 
JoeV is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Posts: 1,700
A bit of light falloff near the edges will make the band at the very left side appear brighter than the center of the image.

I agree with the light leak theory, should be straight forward to diagnose with some black tape on the outside of the camera at strategic places, as you expose a test roll.
__________________
"If your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light"

Inventor of the Light Pipe Array
My Blog
My latest book
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2018   #17
ColSebastianMoran
Registered User
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,322
Light leak torture test:
- Three blank frames in quick succession
- Leave camera in bright light for a couple of hours
- Then four more blanks in quick succession
- Shoot the rest of the roll if you wish

My theory is light leak. When it happened to me, it was the film door hinge, so the leak was not on the frame behind the shutter.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nikon DX Fisheye, photos in this Flickr album.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-25-2018   #18
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,262
I might suspect the cassette. Does this happen at the start of the roll only? Seems like it could be some bad felt on the cassette letting light leak in before it goes in the camera. You mention TMax was unaffected, so that would point to the Silvermax film or cassette being the culprit?

Was the TMax bulk loaded as well?
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-25-2018   #19
Malcolm M
Registered User
 
Malcolm M's Avatar
 
Malcolm M is offline
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 49
Having seen the photo of two consecutive negatives, I stand even more strongly by my original diagnosis. The fogging is in exactly the same place (just clipping the 1st sprocket hole) on both. The film is being fogged between cassette and pressure plate, and then moved into the image area when wound on.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-25-2018   #20
Takkun
Ian M.
 
Takkun's Avatar
 
Takkun is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny South Seattle
Posts: 729
i did suspect the cassette at first, but it's looking more and more likely a leak. Developed the second roll shot the other day, as well as a roll of TMY with ColSebastianMoran's test completed...it's there again, both the 'dark' and light streaks.

The other head scratcher is that the only foam seal, the annular one around the film indicator window, looks fine—supple with no compression. That's the most likely point of entry.

So I'll put forth another hypothesis. Lately I've been using a P-Touch labeler to mark my cassettes instead of a strip of masking tape with hastily scribbled notes. I've been putting these where the film reminder window would let me see them, like on a factory-rolled cassette.

The labeler strips are laminated, gloss white. Could it be that, somehow light is being piped through the label material and under the seal?
__________________
Ian M., Seattle
Current bag contents: Bronica SQ-A, Mamiya C33.

currently trying to find a use for a Nikon D2.
--
my infrequently updated blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-25-2018   #21
Livesteamer
Registered User
 
Livesteamer is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winston Salem North Carolina
Posts: 1,408
It might be the label. I have been using small stick on labels for over a year now. I put them on the bottom of the camera so at a glance I can see the roll number and type of film. When the roll is done I take the label off and put it on the cassette. Mostly I load at home and write down label info in a notebook but sometimes I will prep a roll to take with me by trimming the leader and sticking the label on the film can. This system has been really helpful keeping track of film, cameras and lens used and also knowing what I am sending out to get processed. Good Luck with this. Joe
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-25-2018   #22
Takkun
Ian M.
 
Takkun's Avatar
 
Takkun is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny South Seattle
Posts: 729
i'm only hoping that's it. The only variables that have changed since I shot this weekend were the film stock and putting little sticky labels on the canisters. Seems unlikely, but maybe they're reflective enough or thick enough to just get a hair of light in there. These leaks don't look like the type i've seen before where they result in full-density marks.

Thankfully, even though I now have four rolls with this problem, it's easily croppable

Barring that, anyone know where to get these oblong-shaped seals?

Joe—that system sounds smart. When I shot a lot more frequently, I'd put a square of masking tape (unlabeled, mind you) on canisters/cameras with Hp5, and none for those loaded with TMY400. Kept good track of it, until I went a few years without developing and completely forgot my system.
__________________
Ian M., Seattle
Current bag contents: Bronica SQ-A, Mamiya C33.

currently trying to find a use for a Nikon D2.
--
my infrequently updated blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-31-2018   #23
Takkun
Ian M.
 
Takkun's Avatar
 
Takkun is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny South Seattle
Posts: 729
So one last update.

Ran a few more rolls through, both TMY and silvermax, while working on another project on digital. This time, I peeled off the DIY labels before loading the camera.

Nothing, no weird banding or light leaks, even with carrying around the camera in broad daylight. All signs are pointing to the glossy label (both black type on white, and white type on black) transmitting light under the foam seal and onto the first bit of film out of the cassette. Now I just need an ideal way to remind myself of which camera is loaded with what.

For those at all curious, the project in question is supermarket interiors, which I am writing my graduate thesis on. So far, I've only had one verbal approval to shoot, at my local co-op where I know the manager. The rest is a bit of sneaking around covert photography, which is why the Bessa is ideal: small full-frame with the Skopar 25 and AE. Slips into my pocket just fine.
__________________
Ian M., Seattle
Current bag contents: Bronica SQ-A, Mamiya C33.

currently trying to find a use for a Nikon D2.
--
my infrequently updated blog
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 21:53.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.