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Scale Focus 35's Though not rangefinders, scale focus 35's are 1st cousins. This forum includes such popular gems as the Rollei 35's, Petri 35's, and the Olympus XA-4.

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Mechanical 35mm Compact
Old 09-05-2017   #1
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Mechanical 35mm Compact

Hi all,
I've been through camera after camera in search of one that fits what I want but I can't seem to find the right one. I'm looking for a mechanical compact camera, with a wide lens (wider than 35mm at least) that's reasonably fast, manual exposure, and uses scale focus. Something in between a Fuji Natura 1.9 and a Rollei 35. I'm thinking it might just come down to finding the right lens for my Leica and leaving it at that so I suppose that's the second part of my post; what wide lenses would people recommend for Leica that would essentially make it into an overgrown compact? Something similar to the Voigtlander 25mm Skopar but more pancake-esque possibly...
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Old 09-05-2017   #2
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Olympus XA4. 28mm lens. Scale focus. The lens is slow though but why would you care since it's scale focus and you need dof?
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Old 09-05-2017   #3
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Originally Posted by stompyq View Post
Olympus XA4. 28mm lens. Scale focus. The lens is slow though but why would you care since it's scale focus and you need dof?
Great cameras! Although not mechanical or manual exposure so unfortunately not what I'm looking for.
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Old 09-05-2017   #4
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My suggestion would be a Kodak Retina but they're all 50mm lenses. Unless you get the horrible later models with interchangeable front elements. Bleh. I love my Retina II, folds up tiny and has clear distance markings for scale focus. Used it successfully for street photography despite the standard focal length. I swear it's field of view is closer to 40mm...
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Old 09-05-2017   #5
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I don't think that camera exists...

The Olympus 35RC... or a Leica CL are close to what you want...
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Old 09-05-2017   #6
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Originally Posted by Arbitrarium View Post
My suggestion would be a Kodak Retina but they're all 50mm lenses. Unless you get the horrible later models with interchangeable front elements. Bleh. I love my Retina II, folds up tiny and has clear distance markings for scale focus. Used it successfully for street photography despite the standard focal length. I swear it's field of view is closer to 40mm...
I've had a couple and loved them for low light and stuff but they're just not what I'm looking for right now and if I'm using a rangefinder it'll be my Leica anyway. Thankyou though!
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Old 09-05-2017   #7
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Originally Posted by Swift1 View Post
I don't think that camera exists...

The Olympus 35RC... or a Leica CL are close to what you want...
They are good but unfortunately not wide enough and I prefer my Leica in regards ranegfinders. I think you might be right though; the camera I want doesn't exist Maybe I could take the lens off a Rollei 35 and put a wider lens from a different camera on. Perhaps a broken XA4 would make a good donor... or a Vivitar ultra wide and slim even. I suppose the main thing would be cutting the lens barrel down so that it would leave the back of the lens close enough to the film but still allow the shutter to engage.
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Old 09-05-2017   #8
Mark Schretlen
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I'd like one too. Basically you want a 35mm format version of something like the Fuji GS645W (120 film). You'll have better luck with an M/LTM body and finding a small LTM lens with your desired focal length.
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Old 09-05-2017   #9
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Leica Series I and 28mm Orion-15, Russar 20mm. Those are pancake like lenses, will do on Leica.

This is most elegant, still serviceable compact kit which is as mechanical as it could get. IMO.

Bessa L, T will do as well.
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Old 09-05-2017   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Leica Series I and 28mm Orion-15, Russar 20mm. Those are pancake like lenses, will do on Leica.

This is most elegant, still serviceable compact kit which is as mechanical as it could get. IMO.

Bessa L, T will do as well.
Oooh the Russar! I forgot about that! Thankyou for reminding me! I can stick it on my M6 for a compact enough setup.

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Originally Posted by Mark Schretlen View Post
I'd like one too. Basically you want a 35mm format version of something like the Fuji GS645W (120 film). You'll have better luck with an M/LTM body and finding a small LTM lens with your desired focal length.
I've noticed a couple of Ricoh GR lenses and Voigtlander wide angles that fit my needs reasonably well and, as Ko.Fe. mentioned I have the option of the Russian LTM stock as well which I had previously forgotten. Hopefully one day I'll manage to hack a Rollei sufficiently to do what I want.
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Old 09-05-2017   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yams View Post
what wide lenses would people recommend for Leica that would essentially make it into an overgrown compact? Something similar to the Voigtlander 25mm Skopar but more pancake-esque possibly...
Would the MS-Optical 28mm Perar be wide enough and flat enough for your needs?
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Old 09-05-2017   #12
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At your service!

Perar wide angle pancake lenses are as tiny as it could get. They will works with Bessa T or any M-mount camera. 28mm f4 Perar will works with M6 without VF.
Here is less expensive Minitar-1 32mm 2.8 lens. True pancake, but it only shines with color.
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Old 09-05-2017   #13
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Bessa R4M + Skopar 21mm
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Old 09-05-2017   #14
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For a scale focus camera, I like using a Leica Standard with either a small 28mm or 35mm lens and external finder. I found a good finder worth the bulk over smaller scale focus camera options. Not your cheapest option when you add everything up, but it's small and keeps doing what it needs to even though it is 87 years old.
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Old 09-05-2017   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
At your service!

Perar wide angle pancake lenses are as tiny as it could get. They will works with Bessa T or any M-mount camera. 28mm f4 Perar will works with M6 without VF.
Here is less expensive Minitar-1 32mm 2.8 lens. True pancake, but it only shines with color.
I think if I'm going to spend my money on a lens I would prefer it to be wide over being as tiny as possible so the Russar might actually be a better option.

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Originally Posted by valdas View Post
Bessa R4M + Skopar 21mm
I have looked at the Skopar 21mm but I'm not wanting another modern rangefinder so i'll pass on the Bessa.

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Originally Posted by MikeL View Post
For a scale focus camera, I like using a Leica Standard with either a small 28mm or 35mm lens and external finder. I found a good finder worth the bulk over smaller scale focus camera options. Not your cheapest option when you add everything up, but it's small and keeps doing what it needs to even though it is 87 years old.
I have enjoyed using Barnack Leicas in the past so this could be an option; it's a lot smaller than the M6 and other similar modern rangefinders and I wouldn't need higher than 1/500th with a lens that only opens up to F/5.6. That's a tricky decision I'll have to put some thought into that.

Thank you all for your great suggestions!
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Old 09-05-2017   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Leica Series I and 28mm Orion-15, Russar 20mm. Those are pancake like lenses, will do on Leica.

This is most elegant, still serviceable compact kit which is as mechanical as it could get. IMO.

Bessa L, T will do as well.
Bessa T and Canon 28 f2.8 is a great combo. Recently got the T with the Heliar combo but been trying the T with all sort of lenses. I think its compact enough.

Been on the look for a If on the right price/conditions.

Regards

Marcelo
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Old 09-05-2017   #17
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There have been a few "wide" (at that time mostly 35mm) fixed-lens cameras in the all-mechanical pre AE era, like the Olympus Wide and Wide S, Ricoh Wide 2.4 or Kowa SW. But these are bigger than a Leica IIIf with wide angle lens...
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Old 09-05-2017   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaniagua View Post
Bessa T and Canon 28 f2.8 is a great combo. Recently got the T with the Heliar combo but been trying the T with all sort of lenses. I think its compact enough.

Been on the look for a If on the right price/conditions.

Regards

Marcelo
Thanks for the suggestion Marcelo but for the difference in size between the Bessa T and the M6 is negligible enough that I'll stick with the M6.

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There have been a few "wide" (at that time mostly 35mm) fixed-lens cameras in the all-mechanical pre AE era, like the Olympus Wide and Wide S, Ricoh Wide 2.4 or Kowa SW. But these are bigger than a Leica IIIf with wide angle lens...
These are the best suggestions and the closest cameras to what I want that anyone on any forum has recommended so far and I had already known about the Kowa and totally forgotten! How stupid of me! It's a shame the Kowas are so expensive for what they are :/ They probably are bigger than the Leica but having a camera with a fixed lens that was made specifically for it is more appealing to me somehow. Thankyou for reminding me and letting me know about the Ricoh and the Olympus!
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Old 09-05-2017   #19
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My votes would be for Kodak Retina IIa or an Olympus 35 RC
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Old 09-05-2017   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeL View Post
For a scale focus camera, I like using a Leica Standard with either a small 28mm or 35mm lens and external finder. I found a good finder worth the bulk over smaller scale focus camera options. Not your cheapest option when you add everything up, but it's small and keeps doing what it needs to even though it is 87 years old.
Either this, or - if you need M mount - a Leica CL. A little higher and a little shorter than a standard. As lens add, for example, a 28/2 MS-Optical.

Roland.
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Old 09-05-2017   #21
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Avenon 28/3.5, Sankyo Koki 28/3.5, screw mounts, these are pancakey
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Old 09-05-2017   #22
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I love my all manual, scale-focus Petri Color 35.
However lens is 40mm focal length.
Easily fits in a pocket but all-metal so it's relatively heavy.

The various Rollei 35 models would also fill the bill but they too have 40mm lenses.

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Old 09-05-2017   #23
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I love my all manual, scale-focus Petri Color 35.
However lens is 40mm focal length.
Easily fits in a pocket but all-metal so it's relatively heavy.

Chris
Yeah it's one I've considered but the 40mm lens isn't for me.

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Originally Posted by lxmike View Post
My votes would be for Kodak Retina IIa or an Olympus 35 RC
If I'm going with a rangefinder it'll be my M6
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Originally Posted by ferider View Post
Either this, or - if you need M mount - a Leica CL. A little higher and a little shorter than a standard. As lens add, for example, a 28/2 MS-Optical.

Roland.
That 28/2 is a beauty of a lens, it might have been perfect were it not for the price which I was expecting to be high. Maybe if I save up I'll get it but I'm not totally sold on the rendering it has wide open. Maybe if I drop 800-1100 on one I might grow to like it...

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Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
Avenon 28/3.5, Sankyo Koki 28/3.5, screw mounts, these are pancakey
Yeah I've looked at the 21mm version of the Avenon because I figure if I'm going wide I might as well go really wide
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Old 09-05-2017   #24
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My recently acquired Bessa L with 25mm Snapshot Skopar is pretty compact and very light.
It is uncomplicated and quite pleasant to use. The lens is superb.

The Bessa L body weighs 11.3 oz. The 25mm Snaphot Skopar weighs a mere 3.2 oz.
Your Leica M6 body alone weighs almost 20 oz.

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Old 09-05-2017   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPlatt View Post
My recently acquired Bessa L with 25mm Snapshot Skopar is pretty compact and very light.
It is uncomplicated and quite pleasant to use. The lens is superb.

The Bessa L body weighs 11.3 oz. The 25mm Snaphot Skopar weighs a mere 3.2 oz.
Your Leica M6 body alone weighs almost 20 oz.

Chris
To be honest weight has never been an issue for me with any camera (including 5x4's and RB67's) so having the equivalent of a bag of sugar with some biscuits on top hanging round my neck or in my pocket isn't even a consideration. The 25mm has been one my mind for a while but I'm unsure I'll be in love with the way it renders so I'll be looking for alternatives for now.
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25mm CV Snapshot Skopar
Old 09-05-2017   #26
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25mm CV Snapshot Skopar

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The 25mm has been one my mind for a while but I'm unsure I'll be in love with the way it renders so I'll be looking for alternatives for now.
There are plenty of gorgeous images on this and other forums made with this little lens.

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Old 09-05-2017   #27
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There are plenty of gorgeous images on this and other forums made with this little lens.

Chris
I'm sure there are but I'm more attracted to the Avenon/Kobalux 21/2.8 or the Russar MP-2 or the Ricoh GR lenses. I like the Voigtlander 25mm but there's just something about the Voigtlander/Cosina stuff that makes me prefer other lenses.
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Old 09-05-2017   #28
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You really are hard to please

Just kidding

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Old 09-05-2017   #29
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For compactness the Leica CL can't be beat. The viewfinder is pretty close to the coverage of a 28mm lens. And it has onboard metering if you want.

Next up would be a Leica or ?? screwmount and finder.
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Old 09-05-2017   #30
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Someday, way off in the future I'd like to have a Retina II, but not yet my Friend...not yet...
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Old 09-05-2017   #31
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Find some broken lensed compact camera with a working winder mechanism and stick an Industar 69 on it. That would just be a cool Frankenstein's monster of a camera. Super pocketable as the lens is almost flat. It IS a half frame lens but it almost covers 35mm completely with some mechanical vignetting.

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Old 09-05-2017   #32
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Quote:
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I'm sure there are but I'm more attracted to the Avenon/Kobalux 21/2.8 or the Russar MP-2 or the Ricoh GR lenses. I like the Voigtlander 25mm but there's just something about the Voigtlander/Cosina stuff that makes me prefer other lenses.

I take Skopar 21/4 over Russar any day... and not because of "just something"
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Old 09-06-2017   #33
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The Fed Zarya is a viewfinder only version of the Fed 2 that takes LTM lenses. This could be a cheaper route than a Leica or CV body.
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Old 09-06-2017   #34
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If you wanted to stay with the Leica try the Lomography Minitar 1 Art lens? It has scale focus and is a pancake lens.
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Old 09-06-2017   #35
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I take Skopar 21/4 over Russar any day... and not because of "just something"
What is it about the Skopar you would have over the Russar? I personally prefer the fact the Russar is a bit flatter physically and the fact the older ones seem to give highlights a good amount of glow. Plus I'm a sucker for these old Russian lenses but that's not to say I would be unhappy with either, they're both great lenses and pretty much exactly what I want, however, for a similar amount of money (maybe a Skopar with the finder would be a bit more) I would prefer the lens I really want. Plus if I'm being reeeally picky I prefer that the Russars are 20mm instead of 21mm haha

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Originally Posted by besk View Post
For compactness the Leica CL can't be beat. The viewfinder is pretty close to the coverage of a 28mm lens. And it has onboard metering if you want.

Next up would be a Leica or ?? screwmount and finder.
I think if I was going for another rangefinder, as many have suggested, I would want something like a Leica standard or iiiF for the slow speeds. The CL is a good suggestion though but, as I've mentioned, I'd like to stick with my M6 and not get another rangefinder if possible and find a scale focus camera instead.

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Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
Find some broken lensed compact camera with a working winder mechanism and stick an Industar 69 on it. That would just be a cool Frankenstein's monster of a camera. Super pocketable as the lens is almost flat. It IS a half frame lens but it almost covers 35mm completely with some mechanical vignetting.

Phil Forrest
I've seen the Industar on full frame and that vignetting is something else but that's a really good idea actually. Possibly some sort of combination of the Petri Color 35 and that lens would be good; thankyou!

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Someday, way off in the future I'd like to have a Retina II, but not yet my Friend...not yet...
They're beautiful cameras and I love the 50/2 lenses on them. The only thing that gets me is that the door takes up a lot of grip space on the right hand side of the camera meaning that I feel as though I can't get a good enough grip on it.

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You really are hard to please

Just kidding

Marcelo
I just know what I want in a camera but I don't know what camera has it all in one package haha
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Old 09-06-2017   #36
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The Fed Zarya is a viewfinder only version of the Fed 2 that takes LTM lenses. This could be a cheaper route than a Leica or CV body.
That's true it might be cheaper but I already have an M6 and the Zarya isn't the best looking camera ever.... thankyou for the suggest though!

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If you wanted to stay with the Leica try the Lomography Minitar 1 Art lens? It has scale focus and is a pancake lens.
It's a good lens and I enjoyed the way it looked when I was using an LC-A but if I'm paying that much for a lens I would rather pay a bit more and get a wide lens because I already have a 35mm and the Minitar is only 3mm wider.
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Old 09-06-2017   #37
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What is it about the Skopar you would have over the Russar? I personally prefer the fact the Russar is a bit flatter physically and the fact the older ones seem to give highlights a good amount of glow. Plus I'm a sucker for these old Russian lenses but that's not to say I would be unhappy with either, they're both great lenses and pretty much exactly what I want, however, for a similar amount of money (maybe a Skopar with the finder would be a bit more) I would prefer the lens I really want. Plus if I'm being reeeally picky I prefer that the Russars are 20mm instead of 21mm haha
Well, I guess it is a matter of taste. If low contrast is an advantage to you, sure, Russar is the one. I don't go for "glow" either Skopar - faster and sharper wide open. I think it is cheaper than Russar as well (or similar price).
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Old 09-06-2017   #38
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Well, I guess it is a matter of taste. If low contrast is an advantage to you, sure, Russar is the one. I don't go for "glow" either Skopar - faster and sharper wide open. I think it is cheaper than Russar as well (or similar price).
All good points but I'm afraid I prefer the Russar for the glow and the slight softness wide open plus it's only a stop darker and I'm not getting it for low light so I'm sure I'll survive with 5.6. As for it being cheaper, I can't disagree there although, on eBay at least, the cheapest Russar+finder I can find is only 10 more than the cheapest Skopar+finder... We'll just have to agree to disagree!
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