Leica seal
Old 01-03-2013   #1
Tadeyev
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Leica seal

I was just wondering: does the original 'L' seal need to be removed to do a general CLA, or is that only required for special areas to be cleaned/regulated if there are issues?

Ciao
Theo
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Old 01-03-2013   #2
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The seal covers a screw, that holds the top onto the body, and the front shell to the body.
You can't take the top cover off, without removing the seal. And the top cover needs to come off, to do any operation, except:
- fine adjustment of the shutter speeds (the screws are at the bottom of the camera)
- adjust the RF infinity (access is in the chamber behind the lens)
- adjust the RF vertical (access is via removing the screw in the front of the top cover)

Just about every other adjustment or cleaning needs the top cover removed.
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Old 01-03-2013   #3
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If it is a worry look on the bright side, if the original seal has been replaced by a Leica 'serviced' seal, or a certified repairers seal, or even no seal at all, odds are that the camera has been given a CLA since leaving the factory and isn't all gummed up inside and out of adjustment.
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Old 01-03-2013   #4
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Hi, to remove the top is a must to take away the L seal...it´s better to have it but of course it depends on how much the cla is needed...many things can be made without removing the top thou...
When a an l camera needs a cla i make a lot of stuff to preserve it...for instance sticky speeds....but needs patience...and uncoventional CLA procedures...

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Old 01-03-2013   #5
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um, yeah. If the seal is gone, all you can say is that someone has taken the top off.

It doesn't indicate whatever else has been done.
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Old 01-03-2013   #6
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Take a look at the following link :
http://tlccamerarepair.homestead.com/services.html
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Old 01-04-2013   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
There are repair shops that finish up with a replacement L seal so it's really meaningless as to whether a camera has been opened or not, or has an intact seal.
You should really say which ones, because counterfeiting the seal is fraud, and selling a camera knowing the seal is fake is also fraud.

Any good repairer, if they don't have their own seal, will simply fill the hole with wax, or leave the screw visible. A list of seal markings was listed in this old thread

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...t=42851&page=2
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Old 01-04-2013   #8
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Anybody can do that if they want to ...





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Old 01-04-2013   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
How does one remove the top plate from say an M3, without removing the wax seal? Can you get to that screw some other way?
1, take an impression of the seal with a non-thermal plastic mandril
2, remove the screw, and do as you will
3, impress a new piece wax with the aforementioned mandril
4, do not misrepresent what you have done on ebay ... they have enough problems as it is
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Old 01-04-2013   #10
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How about this?



No? Okay nevermind.
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Old 01-04-2013   #11
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Oops ... I was wrong .

M3/M2
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5865364
M4
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/7/1...7586548_tp.jpg
M5
http://kevincameras.com/gallery/v/le..._1_5.jpeg.html
M4-2
http://www.kevincameras.com/gallery/..._2_1.jpeg.html
M4-P/M6
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/5/4...2760992_tp.jpg
M7
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-Black-...item3cbdbaeb43

*Seal needs to be removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
How does one remove the top plate from say an M3, without removing the wax seal? Can you get to that screw some other way?
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Old 01-04-2013   #12
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Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
Any repair shop that advertises L seal replacement. As such, it's disclosed and isn't fraud.

It's been a LONG time since Leica used wax seals.
Yes, and it is for Leica to use their seal, not for somebody to counterfeit it. It was there for the purpose of traceability, not as a cute little affectation. So if it is a long time since Leica used a wax seal it doesn't mean some low life can commandeer it to 'add value' and return a camera that has been fiddled around with by who know's who to seemingly 'original' condition. I don't know why the difference between honesty and lying is so difficult to spot, or why anybody think's it is worth doing in the first place unless for ego or deceit.
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Old 01-04-2013   #13
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Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
I ask the question again.
Emm .. no, obviously
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Old 01-04-2013   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
Maybe you should lecture them directly. Leica repair shops that replace the seal aren't difficult to find.
But still you can't give a single clue as to who even one is? I don't know who they are (apart from the ones who legitimately use their own seal) and if I didI wouldn't use them anyway. I think you are re-cycling an urban myth.
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Old 01-04-2013   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-12 View Post
But still you can't give a single clue as to who even one is? I don't know who they are (apart from the ones who legitimately use their own seal) and if I didI wouldn't use them anyway. I think you are re-cycling an urban myth.
I believe there's a link in post #7.
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Original question
Old 01-05-2013   #16
Tadeyev
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Original question

Hello all,
Tnxs for the replies.

It does not really bother me one way or another about the seal being original or not; I just became a little suspicious of the seal thing because you come across old bodies sometimes more than 50 years old that work so well and in such good condition- with an intact seal. I can't believe that is possible, and common sense told me that there must be something going on.

So now I know - they are probably serviced before sale and given copied seals.

Regarding seals being copied: Somewhere I read that from the M3 onwards to the 70's the original factory seals had the 'L' in positive, and when a Leica technician did a CLA, they used a negative 'L' (pressed into the wax) but I have no idea if that is correct. That practice seems not official today, so maybe some of the old timer official Leica guys still have the 'servicing seal' laying around and use it?

Anyway, as long as the camera takes good pictures, I am not going to worry
Ciao,
Theo
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Old 01-05-2013   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadeyev View Post
Hello all,

Regarding seals being copied: Somewhere I read that from the M3 onwards to the 70's the original factory seals had the 'L' in positive, and when a Leica technician did a CLA, they used a negative 'L' (pressed into the wax) but I have no idea if that is correct. That practice seems not official today, so maybe some of the old timer official Leica guys still have the 'servicing seal' laying around and use it?

Ciao,
Theo
As far as I know, that is correct - - if the Leica technician was in Wetzlar at the Leitz factory. (and maybe in Midland?)
All other Leica technicians did not use the concav L seal. Well, that's at least what a now retired repairman told me.
If I am wrong, please correct me.
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Old 01-05-2013   #18
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Originally Posted by Rogrund View Post
I believe there's a link in post #7.
Amazing. It's like a dodgy car dealer advertising that they clock the mileage! And people are so arrogant and dishonest to have their camera clocked, the same way they presumably ask a garage to clock their car at a service? After all, who is harmed by it

The only way this fakery can be asked for from the repairer is with the intention of artificially boosting the value of the camera, because even if it is admitted to the next buyer, the trail will start to go cold by the next, and the next. You have to wonder at the morals of some of the Leica owners around, if they think this is acceptable and find it something to brag about it.
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Old 01-05-2013   #19
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Originally Posted by V-12 View Post
Amazing. It's like a dodgy car dealer advertising that they clock the mileage! And people are so arrogant and dishonest to have their camera clocked, the same way they presumably ask a garage to clock their car at a service? After all, who is harmed by it

The only way this fakery can be asked for from the repairer is with the intention of artificially boosting the value of the camera, because even if it is admitted to the next buyer, the trail will start to go cold by the next, and the next. You have to wonder at the morals of some of the Leica owners around, if they think this is acceptable and find it something to brag about it.
Or indeed to give a toss about.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 01-05-2013   #20
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every single factory L seal (not L service seal) camera that has passed through my hands and there has been a few! has had slow speed issues.
If I was worried about the authenticity I'd check the speeds but seriously who cares. Are you buying for investment or use. Seems to me that authentic seal protectors are trying to make money out of others by speculating on originality. I personally just filled the hole with wax and left it plain. This is a classic example of why Leica fanatics get a bad name for being @@@l about detail. It's exactly the same in the HRD Vincent world.
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Old 01-05-2013   #21
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Gus can CLA your camera and leave the seal intact. My M4 MOT has an intact L seal, but has obviously been serviced in the past, as the body has been beat and worn through to the brass, yet the glass windows in the rangefinder are new and without a mark.

Removing the seal an replacing it doesn't mean fraud, all it means is that "L seal intact" is irrelevant, and may or may not mean a camera has never been disassembled.

Dead giveaways of an untampered-with, L-seal-intact camera are usually dry-rotted shutter curtains, sticky slow speeds, and deterioration of the glue in the rangefinder, in which case it's time to lose the seal and fix the camera anyway.
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Old 01-05-2013   #22
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Originally Posted by nobbylon View Post
every single factory L seal (not L service seal) camera that has passed through my hands and there has been a few! has had slow speed issues.
If I was worried about the authenticity I'd check the speeds but seriously who cares. Are you buying for investment or use. Seems to me that authentic seal protectors are trying to make money out of others by speculating on originality. I personally just filled the hole with wax and left it plain. This is a classic example of why Leica fanatics get a bad name for being @@@l about detail. It's exactly the same in the HRD Vincent world.
Or anywhere else where there's a significant divide between users and 'investors'.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 05-27-2014   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
Anybody can do that if they want to ...





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Hi,

Do you know what kind of wax Leica used? I'm trying to find this stuff.

Thanks for any help on this!

Jonas
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Old 05-27-2014   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micromoogman View Post
Hi,

Do you know what kind of wax Leica used? I'm trying to find this stuff.

Thanks for any help on this!

Jonas
... sorry no idea
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