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Old 1 Week Ago   #41
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I have nothing to contribute but would just like to thank the OP for this post. Probably the most interesting thread on RFF at the moment (YMMW ofc)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #42
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@stompyq, you are welcome.

It's getting about time to summarize the results.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #43
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It is very simple:

1) dcraw.exe -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T test.arw
2) in Photoshop apply logarithmic curve
3) levels (white and black point manually) plus red gamma for balance
4) add saturation (I've used channel mixer and my own saturation presets)

my plugin is step 2+3 and saves AMP Photoshop curve for automation

I'm using OLED display which is wide gamut device so I've added saturation for sRGB screens.
On OLED it looks very well, dynamic range nicely compressed from negative.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #44
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What is fun about the results posted is that it reminds me of the film tests in camera magazines before the advent of the internet. Ya know, when we got all our info from those things that could give us paper cuts..
They'd test the latest batch of equivalent films from Kodak , Fuji, Agfa etc and print the same scene shot on each film. And we'd bask in the glory of their differences! It seems the same thing applies here, the correct result is the one you like the most.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
What is fun about the results posted is that it reminds me of the film tests in camera magazines before the advent of the internet. Ya know, when we got all our info from those things that could give us paper cuts..
They'd test the latest batch of equivalent films from Kodak , Fuji, Agfa etc and print the same scene shot on each film. And we'd bask in the glory of their differences! It seems the same thing applies here, the correct result is the one you like the most.
Huss, sure there's a judgment and preference element, but those films all gave reasonable interpretations, just as today's digital cameras give reasonable interpretations. Some of the conversions I've tried do give a reasonable interpretation, and some are just not reasonable. Some would be a real PITA to fix.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
It is very simple:

1) dcraw.exe -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T test.arw
2) in Photoshop apply logarithmic curve
3) levels (white and black point manually) plus red gamma for balance
4) add saturation (I've used channel mixer and my own saturation presets)

my plugin is step 2+3 and saves AMP Photoshop curve for automation

I'm using OLED display which is wide gamut device so I've added saturation for sRGB screens.
On OLED it looks very well, dynamic range nicely compressed from negative.
Thanks Jack. For readers, Jack @jzagaja is the person who gave me the non-linear inversion curve that was one of my first break-throughs.

Jack, some questions:
a. dcraw with these parameters gives a linear tiff file. It has a different color balance than MakeTiff, but I think it's the same idea.
b. I got better results when I do "Levels... Auto" on this linear file to set black/white points by channel, before the inversion curve. Does this sound right?
c. "apply log curve" -- can you point us to a suitable log curve? I don't think it's the gamma-to-log that you gave me previously, or am I mistaken?
d. You've got a nice conversion, skillfully done. You're better at using channel mixer than I am.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #47
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My attempt.

1. Maketiff
2. Rotate
3. ColorPerfect - Fuji - Pro400H as a starting point and tweaked with 'Ring' to my taste
4. Auto Tone - Auto Contrast - Auto Color
5. Export to Lightroom and apply my film preset (boost highlight/shadow, up contrast/vibrance/saturation)

I must agree this is a very good DSLR scan, much better than my little rig with Sony NEX6. Do you mind sharing your scanning setup? Thanks for starting this thread, as I'm just starting this process out as well.

https://imgur.com/a/phanO
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Old 1 Week Ago   #48
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Thanks, @mlu19. That's a very good result. Coke red, Kodak yellow, Fuji greens all good. T-shirt is just slightly blown out top left, but very good in all respects.

I haven't used the "Ring" feature in CP, but will try it.

Here's my rig for camera-scans, but more about that in other threads.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #49
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sRGB has given me more accurate colors throughout most devices and prints. Somehow, aRGB1998 has given me skewed colors (mostly muted, cooler colors) whenever I've exported from various software. To be frank, not sure why that's happening, other than knowing that a change in profiles can make this happen, as well as, file formats (jpegs, tiffs, psd's), but that's the reason why I convert to sRGB.

To my knowledge and understanding, it's commonly used. Even with the few printshops I work with by contract have printers which can accurately match Pantone and sRGB color files.

This is why I've mentioned before, that I try to get a raw, linear, no profile scan so I have more control over colorperfect, etc.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
a. dcraw with these parameters gives a linear tiff file. It has a different color balance than MakeTiff, but I think it's the same idea.
b. I got better results when I do "Levels... Auto" on this linear file to set black/white points by channel, before the inversion curve. Does this sound right?
c. "apply log curve" -- can you point us to a suitable log curve? I don't think it's the gamma-to-log that you gave me previously, or am I mistaken?
d. You've got a nice conversion, skillfully done. You're better at using channel mixer than I am.
A. RAW converter makes biggest difference, use camera white balance and camera color space

B. with log applied image easier to do levels manually/visually because histogram is stretched nicely. Autolevels in linear file can induce unwanted data loss depends on application algorithm. It is better of course (colorimetrically) so application designer should do all color correction over linear file with floating precision then for viewing apply log curve in graphic card driver. Finally convert to defined color space.

C. Gamma-log is if you have normal jpegs from camera, difference between log and gamma 2,2 (Windows). C-log.amp is Photoshop log curve originally programmed by Timo Autiokari in Finland 17 years ago using Excel and VBA. I've lost that XLS.

D. Channel Mixer used for saturation is slightly better - tends to not overbright colors like we see in most cases even in Fuji cameras wth great color science.

Once you create profile in my plugin you can save AMP curve and apply to your images in many apps not only Photoshop. You can use linear tiff or camera jpeg just fine tune parameters.

Intresting is case with tungsten or led/ccfl light. Then color grading soft would help but I haven't learned e.g. Davinci Resolve yet ;-)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #51
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Very little difference between DCraw and MakeTIFF.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #52
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MakeTiff uses dcraw (if you don't have Adobe DNG Converter installed on your system).
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Old 1 Week Ago   #53
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I have Adobe DNG - MakeTiff is green while DCraw is magenta.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #54
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great success of "Auto Color+Auto Tone" with this picture is because of the full range of tones&colors, with pure blacks and whites, plus a gretag-macbeth in the center. Try it with more tricky scans and only dedicated SilverFast/ColorPerfect gonna deliver nice auto results. I've done recently some test between flatbed/PacificImage+SF/PacificImage RAW and results are best when it takes time to fine tune them.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbielikowski View Post
great success of "Auto Color+Auto Tone" with this picture is because of the full range of tones&colors, with pure blacks and whites...
Yes, that's a concern. I want to pick a best-nearly-auto approach and then test it with more difficult images.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKimg View Post
sRGB has given me more accurate colors throughout most devices and prints. Somehow, aRGB1998 has given me skewed colors (mostly muted, cooler colors) whenever I've exported from various software.
@DKimg, I believe you are right to turn the image into sRGB, the question is when to make that conversion. I do the conversion later when I export the image, so I'm working in the wide-gamut AdobeRGB space until export.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
C. Gamma-log is if you have normal jpegs from camera, difference between log and gamma 2,2 (Windows). C-log.amp is Photoshop log curve originally programmed by Timo Autiokari in Finland 17 years ago ...

Intresting is case with tungsten or led/ccfl light. Then color grading soft would help but I haven't learned e.g. Davinci Resolve yet ;-)
Jack, thanks. I think I understand.

Yes, it will be interesting to try to invert a color-neg shot in led/ccfl lighting.

Jack, any thoughts on illuminating the negative when I do the camera-scan? Right now, I'm using 5500K electronic flash, and I think that works better than 3000K illumination, but it would be easier to do this with continuous lighting instead of flash.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #58
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use halogen with 80A filter - traditionally biggest noise is in blue channel

I've tried my plugin in Photoshop 6 and Windows 10 - GUI does not work properly, can't save AMP curve. I'm pretty sure negative scan is sensitive to small white point change so one conversion curve won't work for other scans.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbielikowski View Post
great success of "Auto Color+Auto Tone" with this picture is because of the full range of tones&colors, with pure blacks and whites, plus a gretag-macbeth in the center. Try it with more tricky scans and only dedicated SilverFast/ColorPerfect gonna deliver nice auto results. I've done recently some test between flatbed/PacificImage+SF/PacificImage RAW and results are best when it takes time to fine tune them.
True. I would love to play with more tricky digital scans. Would anybody be willing to make available some more digital scans?

Today, I've fed the script I mentioned before some more scans (only scans from my desktop Minolta scanner and Howtek drum scanner since I don't have a digital camera).

First an easy scan, similar to what OP provided (full tonal range, defined BP and WP):



Skin tones:



Evening sky:



Vuescan invert looks spectacular, unfortunately the scene was nothing like that (#5 was processed according to my recollection of the scene; -0.3EV, slight saturation bump (+10) and slight highlights suppression was all it took in Lightroom (starting from #1)). Even ColorPerfect didn't do a good job.


Legend:
#1 - inverted with a "home brewed" script, with zero user intervention
#2- inverted with ColorPerfect (cycling the setting to "Fresh start", setting the "Blacks" and BP tails to zero clipping)
#3 - Howtek drum scan (straight out of scanner - my scanner has an option to internally scan to log scale and then invert, BP and WP set at scan time)
#4 - Minolta raw scan (inverted with Vuescan, Color Balance set to "Auto Levels")
#5 - result from 1 with slight curve/contrast in Lightroom
#6 - result from 3 adjusted in Lightroom (drum scanner files were processed on my old much inferior monitor, I would process them better today)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #60
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try this: http://bielikowski.com/up/mws_0017.tif 108mb! 48bit SilverFast RAW made with PacificImage PF 3600 Pro. It's a Kodak Ektar 100 with Rollei 35SE.

How it looks like on Auto with SF (no adjustements):


and from file above adjusted to taste:


I know those are not scanned with DSLR, but for test purposes should be just fine.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #61
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Pepper grain like from drum scanner
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Time to summarize:
Old 6 Days Ago   #62
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Time to summarize:

Key things I've concluded about camera-scans of color Negatives
1. Getting enough resolution is easy, color and tonality are more difficult
2. Illuminate the negative with a higher Kelvin source (daylight or flash)
3. Shoot RAW with a good macro lens
4. Simple inversion gives the weakest results. Better w/ purpose-built software or a non-linear inversion.
5. The "auto" buttons in Photoshop work quite well, probably best when full-range of tones are present
- Auto Contrast, Auto Tone, Auto Color, or
- Curves... Option-Auto... with these settings
- (Auto button in Lightroom doesn't work for me)
6. Results are good enough for many images, and a good base for further manual adjustments.
6. Typically, I want to add some punch/pop and some saturation, especially in the reds

Minimalist approach:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, open in Photoshop or Lightroom
- Levels adjustment to give a good histogram (centered, wide, but not to the edges)
- Invert the image
- Bend the inversion curve, or add one more curves adjustment, bringing down all the mid-tones
- Add an "auto" adjustment

Better Color:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, open in Photoshop
- Levels adjustment to give a good histogram (centered, not to the edges)
- Invert the image with Jack Jzagaja's curve, or apply ColorPerfect (ColorNEG option)
- Add an "auto" adjustment

Best Color Method #1 (via Photoshop)
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw
- Use MakeTiff or dcraw to create linear tiff with no adjustments (will look very dark)
- Open in Photoshop and apply ColorPerfect (ColorNeg, film type, clipping, gray point, perhaps +sat)
- Add a Photoshop "auto" adjustment

Best Color Method #2 (via VueScan)
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw
- Use MakeTiff or dcraw to create linear tiff with no adjustments (will look very dark)
- Launch VueScan. Input from file. Select options (film type, check clipping, gray point)
- Select destination & file type, then hit "Scan" to process the image
- Adjust in program of your choice
- (Silverfast reportedly can do the same thing.)

Notes:
- MakeTiff is free, whether or not you buy ColorPerfect
- DCraw is free, but it's a command-line program, no easy user interface
- They do the same thing, results are a little different
- The DCRaw command: dcraw -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T fileName
- ColorNeg settings: FilmType, ShadowClip 1.0, HighlightClip 0.25 250, rest to taste

Comments?
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Last edited by ColSebastianMoran : 5 Days Ago at 14:53. Reason: More details.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #63
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For the "simplest" approach, bending the curve something like this seems to work OK:

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Old 6 Days Ago   #64
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So, anyone please post a link to a RAW file, camera-scan capture of a color negative, and let's try to get good color with an almost-automatic process.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #65
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I do know with photoshop and color perfect you can “batch” process several files at once with “setting from last scan”. So basically you edit one photo with the correct film profile, and then batch the rest - the only thing you must physically do is save the photos.

I go between the Luminous Landscape preset (more involved than just autos TBH) and using MakeTiff and color perfect. So I’m fairly familiar with both. Sometimes the Lu-La looks pretty good, but generally the ColorPerfect version looks better. So, ColorPerfect in PS with “batch” process is pretty one click as it gets really.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #66
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Photoshop inversion curve:

1) based on DCraw (with levels):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xgq...ew?usp=sharing


2) based on MakeTiff:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tJL...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 6 Days Ago   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Pepper grain like from drum scanner
Scanner make exact noises like a pepper mill I like those greens you get.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbielikowski View Post
try this: http://bielikowski.com/up/mws_0017.tif 108mb! 48bit SilverFast RAW made with PacificImage PF 3600 Pro. It's a Kodak Ektar 100 with Rollei 35SE.
Hmm... Not too happy with straight inversion:



Looking into what to do so the script would get me closer to something like this (which says Ektar(ish) to me, though it's overdone for my taste):

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Old 6 Days Ago   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brbo View Post
Hmm... Not too happy with straight inversion:

I have NOT been happy with straight inversions. The white and black points are OK, but all the tones in between are too hot. That's exactly what one should expect, it's the non-linear response of film. For math types: the film characteristic curve has a straight line portion in log-log space.

@brbo, try the same straight inversion, but do it with curves, and bend your curve like I showed in #63 above. It will look a lot better.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Photoshop inversion curve:

1) based on DCraw (with levels):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xgq...ew?usp=sharing
I understand: Convert your RAW with this DCraw command, then invert in Photoshop using the above curve.

dcraw.exe -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T fileName.arw


Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
I understand: Run your RAW file through MakeTiff, then invert in Photoshop using the above curve.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Photoshop inversion curve:

1) based on DCraw (with levels):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xgq...ew?usp=sharing
Jack, that curve does a nice job with the output of DCraw. This, with NO tweaks, I did not even add the usual "Auto" adjustments after inversion. Bravo! I would add +sat in red, and the Fuji green is a little off, but this is workable.

Thank you for the curves!

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Old 6 Days Ago   #72
mlu19
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My attempt.

https://imgur.com/a/ev8Gu
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Old 6 Days Ago   #73
ColSebastianMoran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Photoshop inversion curve:

1) based on DCraw (with levels):

2) based on MakeTiff:
Jack, could you post again a link to your curve for inverting the output of Camera Raw (that is, a gamma encoded image)?
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Old 6 Days Ago   #74
ColSebastianMoran
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Friends, when you post something, say how you got there.

And, I request that you show us what you can do mostly auto.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #75
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@mlu19 and @jzagaja, those conversions of the grassy scene look quite good.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #76
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Friends, here's a camera-scan of a color negative, just a test shot with a Yashica GX. You're welcome to try your conversion hand on this one.

Steps, negative illuminated by 3000K Sony ARW file (25MB)
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Old 6 Days Ago   #77
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And, here's another sample image. Tokyo street scene, also Yashica GX.

(Ignore the strange round pattern in the sky. I'll explain the camera-scan issue later.)

Tokyo, negative illuminated 5500K led light panel DNG File (11MG)
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Old 6 Days Ago   #78
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FWIW, here is a web page by "frogymandias" on our same topic. He documents five approaches to process camera-scans of color negatives. He has a couple of sample RAW files, inviting us to try them. (This page appears to be from 2014.)
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Old 6 Days Ago   #79
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In all, it is missing the reference scans of negatives from the Pakon scanner
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Old 6 Days Ago   #80
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One more, FWIW, here is the same test box shot on Ektar.

As expected, it's easier to get saturated reds from Ektar than the shots on Fuji. Surprisingly to me, it's easier to get the right Fuji green as well.
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In Classifieds Now: Nikon AF Gear (The Contax II is SOLD)... photos in this Flickr album.
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Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
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Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
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