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Roger Hicks -- Author of The Rangefinder Book

Roger Hicks is a well known photographic writer, author of The Rangefinder Book, over three dozen other photographic books, and a frequent contributor to Shutterbug and Amateur Photographer. Unusually in today's photographic world, most of his camera reviews are film cameras, especially rangefinders. See www.rogerandfrances.com for further background (Frances is his wife Frances Schultz, acknowledged darkroom addict and fellow Shutterbug contributor) .


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Old 12-30-2014   #1
Roger Hicks
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Do not reply unless you agree with me...

...as I am seeking only confirmation of my own biases and prejudices. Anyone who disagrees will be told that they are replying inappropriately.

This is a fundamental problem with the internet: it promotes a narrow and sometimes paranoid distrust of, or disregard for, others. We seek only those who believe the same as we do.

Of course there are exceptions. I like to think of myself as one. I know there are others right here on RFF. But far too many people self-select tiny peer groups.

Who agrees with me? Bear in mind that I do not want to hear from anyone whose views may challenge my self-satisfied prejudices.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-30-2014   #2
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We need to be reassured, to comply, to fit. Fear, Isolation, and conformism are promoted even more now that the communication is through the internet.
I am sorry but I doo agree with you Roger.
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Old 12-30-2014   #3
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As Groucho Marx once said, "Whatever it is, I'm against it."

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Old 12-30-2014   #4
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Inciting disagreement by demanding agreement. ... are you a replulican?
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Old 12-30-2014   #5
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Yes, Roger, as immigrant who left hopeless country I'm not seeking on Internet for those who support criminals in power killing those who are in opposite. I only support those who like me - likes freedom of speech and justice.
Do not reply if you think it as normal as me.
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Old 12-30-2014   #6
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I don't know if it's the internet and the anonymity it provides, I think in real life people do that as well. Sometimes I think the topic isn't worthy of the energy so I don't reply even if I disagree, I do when the topic is important to me.

Unless we're trying to understand or accomplish something, like at work for example, I find arguing to be a fruitless and tiresome pursuit but I quite like hearing people debate their points of view

I'll leave you with this

https://xkcd.com/386/
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Old 12-30-2014   #7
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I agree totally with what you, and everyone else here, has said. Call me a rebel...
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Old 12-30-2014   #8
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no different than 'real life' seems to me...

most of us would rather be 'right' than happy...
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Old 12-30-2014   #9
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I think the fact that groups like this one exist, proves that you're right. We're together here because we share a particular interest, and consider others unenlightened (not to say plain wrong).

So, we agree..
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Old 12-30-2014   #10
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Assuming you wanted something more than reciprocal irony I agree with you. How many times do we respond to a thread 'what lens should I buy?' and then find that if what you say doesn't meet approval the OP suddenly comes across like they just won the Pulizter Prize and is currently showing at the Guggenheim.

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Old 12-30-2014   #11
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If someone casts aspersions on my camera, that is the same as a personal attack. I give all opinions voiced on the internet equal credulity. I always admire politicians who take a poll to find out what their position on issues should be. I read a negative opinion by somebody or other on my Nikon Df, which, up until then I thought I liked. Now, I guess I'll sell it.
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Old 12-30-2014   #12
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Old 12-30-2014   #13
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Monty python ^
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Old 12-30-2014   #14
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Roger Hicks wrote
...as I am seeking only confirmation of my own biases and prejudices. Anyone who disagrees will be told that they are replying inappropriately.

This is a fundamental problem with the internet: it promotes a narrow and sometimes paranoid distrust of, or disregard for, others. We seek only those who believe the same as we do.

Of course there are exceptions. I like to think of myself as one. I know there are others right here on RFF. But far too many people self-select tiny peer groups.

Who agrees with me? Bear in mind that I do not want to hear from anyone whose views may challenge my self-satisfied prejudices.

Cheers,

R.
I agree.
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Old 12-30-2014   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankS View Post
We used to use the 'Monty Python' argument classification system in relation to our dialogues with our infant daughter.
Now, she has an infant daughter of her own. Karma .
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Old 12-30-2014   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
We seek only those who believe the same as we do.
Conformity stifles creativity and innovation. I'm happy for others to hold different views......

But am I agreeing with you?
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Old 12-30-2014   #17
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Confirmation bias was around before the internet, and only a small minority of people join online special interest groups of any kind. Generally online socialising, social networking and so on is done with people you already know from the "real" world, not people that congeal around particular points of view. While it might seem otherwise with the internet being so big, communities like RFF aren't at all typical.
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Old 12-30-2014   #18
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Isn't that what wives are for, or is it the other way round? Discus, use both sides of the paper if necessary...

Regards, David
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Old 12-30-2014   #19
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very clever
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Old 12-30-2014   #20
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This is not actually a reply, Roger.
Just dropped in to say "hi ! ".
I'm leaving now.
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Old 12-30-2014   #21
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Don't get it, you are asking only to confirm what you want to be confirmed about confirmations?
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Old 12-30-2014   #22
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This thread has no purpose other than to be somewhat confrontational and is aimed squarely at another thread that was started a few days ago.

We are free to ignore that thread and others like it and pass by them if we choose 'without' becoming involved ... so this kind of retaliation seems a little pointless to me.

Just my two cents ... I prefer world peace and turning the other cheek and all that stuff!
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Old 12-30-2014   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
...
Just my two cents ... I prefer world peace and turning the other cheek and all that stuff!
I don't disagree ... ]'-)

G
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Old 12-30-2014   #24
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There are always less informed who do not know they are misinformed and will disagree. There is no point in arguing because you can not win.
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Old 12-30-2014   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
This thread has no purpose other than to be somewhat confrontational and is aimed squarely at another thread that was started a few days ago.

We are free to ignore that thread and others like it and pass by them if we choose 'without' becoming involved ... so this kind of retaliation seems a little pointless to me.

Just my two cents ... I prefer world peace and turning the other cheek and all that stuff!
What thread? For such a peaceful online community, RFF does an awful lot of this head shaking and hand wringing. I find it easier just to accept that others often have opinions and beliefs that differ from mine.
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Old 12-30-2014   #26
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Quote:
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Isn't that what wives are for, or is it the other way round? Discus, use both sides of the paper if necessary...

Regards, David
Dear David,

To quote 1066 and all that, do not attempt to write on both sides of the paper at once.

Cheers,


R.
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Old 12-30-2014   #27
Roger Hicks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgk View Post
Conformity stifles creativity and innovation. I'm happy for others to hold different views......

But am I agreeing with you?
If you're not, you're on the wrong thread...

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-30-2014   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
There are always less informed who do not know they are misinformed and will disagree. There is no point in arguing because you can not win.
Dear Ronald,

No, no, no. There is no point in arguing because THEY cannot win.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-30-2014   #29
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I agree wholeheartedly, I will not spout dissident points of view, and I am ready to bark at anyone who does.

It has been remarked that confirmation bias is not a new phenomenon. I agree. I would like to add that it has always been what got us into the deepests of trouble : witch hunts, crusades, concentration camps, gulags and genocides can all be ascribed to people believing things that couldn't be true, but as 'everyone' believed them...
I believe confirmation bias is a lot more dangerous today, because of the void wide interwebs, the extraordinary interconnectedness of gazillions of people who can be lured into basking in prejudice.

That said, when my dearly beloved rffers start yelling at each other about cameras and companies, I like to settle in my armchair with the proverbial tub of popcorn and a six-pack. Hours of hilarity, and often a decent bit of information.
Please do go on spitting invective. Makes my day.

Cheers
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Old 12-30-2014   #30
Roger Hicks
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Quote:
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Don't get it, you are asking only to confirm what you want to be confirmed about confirmations?
No, really, you did get it. Please confirm that you understood this.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-30-2014   #31
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Quote:
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This thread has no purpose other than to be somewhat confrontational and is aimed squarely at another thread that was started a few days ago. . . .
Dear Keith,

What do you mean, confrontational? I have already stated that I want to avoid confrontation: I want to hear only from people who agree with me.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-30-2014   #32
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Originally Posted by lukitas View Post
I agree wholeheartedly, I will not spout dissident points of view, and I am ready to bark at anyone who does.

It has been remarked that confirmation bias is not a new phenomenon. I agree. I would like to add that it has always been what got us into the deepests of trouble : witch hunts, crusades, concentration camps, gulags and genocides can all be ascribed to people believing things that couldn't be true, but as 'everyone' believed them...
I believe confirmation bias is a lot more dangerous today, because of the void wide interwebs, the extraordinary interconnectedness of gazillions of people who can be lured into basking in prejudice.


That said, when my dearly beloved rffers start yelling at each other about cameras and companies, I like to settle in my armchair with the proverbial tub of popcorn and a six-pack. Hours of hilarity, and often a decent bit of information.
Please do go on spitting invective. Makes my day.

Cheers
Dear Lukitas,

Well, yes. This thread is a parody of confirmation bias, though "parody" is more than a little generous when referring to something so crude. I just wanted to make a few people consider their biases.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-30-2014   #33
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Nice to know we all agree about this...

Regards, David
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Old 12-30-2014   #34
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Absolutely agree.

Its a symptom of our society today in fact. One only has to look at people who behave in a "politically correct" manner and then impose their politically correct views upon others. Which is all about using shaming and other silencing techniques to force people to think (yes this is what they believe that people can be forced to think in a certain manner a la Orwell's thought police) in a certain manner by silencing people with views with which they disagree.

People these days hate dissent. Universities are particularly rife with it, when in fact they should be exactly the opposite - taking the opportunity to indulge in reasoned debate and argument on the key issues facing society. Now days what passes for reasoned debate is actually the screaming of slogans and the shouting down of those whose points of view we do not wish to consider. And what passes for argument is calling people names such as "racist". Often the answer is in the middle ground but the present approach of being horrified if someone disagrees with the views of the more vocal minority damages society by preventing that middle ground being found.

We tell people that we have a "right not to be offended" (as if this is a human right - when in fact it is just a means of shutting people up). And as noted above, we use invective. Have you heard the joke "what is a racist?" Answer; its someone winning an argument with a leftist. Recently in Australia there was an attempt to remove from human rights legislation provisions (that had crept in unseen and unnoticed) making it a legal offence to "offend" someone on racial grounds. Given that almost anything anyone can say will offend someone, this provision has had a chilling effect on public debate and has been used to silence people who had point of view that in many instances was reasonable but which some person did not like. The government attempted to remove the clause which set the bar far too low (most however agree with provisions making it illegal to racially vilify or incite violence which is an entirely different thing). They failed. And the provision is being used to silence debate on key societal issues. In Australia not only do we not have a constitutional right of free speech, increasingly we have laws making free speech illegal.

Last night I was watching on youtube a 40 year old video of Professor Milton Friedman talking to a group of university students and taking questions on the subject of his speech - the role of government in a free economy. He was brilliant, articulate, funny and in command. Today that debate probably would not have happened. He would have been shouted down and silenced for proffering ideas that they disagreed with and saying things that are "politically incorrect". A phrase incidentally that comes straight from - you guessed it, Marxist theory.

I hope this confirms your bias and prejudice. In fact I hope it enlarges them. :^)

Please note the quote in my signature below by George Washington.

Ha. Now I got that off my chest I can have breakfast!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-30-2014   #35
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I think this covers it.

If we had more time for discussion we should probably have made a great many more mistakes.
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Old 12-30-2014   #36
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I agree, Roger, for one reason or another, people seem to be becoming more and more hyper-sensitive to what others think about their purchases.

I suppose we're living in a world where people are keen to define themselves, and keen to have other recognize and respect those definitions. When those people feel that they are disrespected or their opinions belittled, then the web gives them enough distance or anonymity to react in a rude and aggressive way.

This forum is certainly among the more civilised, but still, nowhere close to way most people will conduct themselves face to face.
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Old 12-30-2014   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris101 View Post
What thread? For such a peaceful online community, RFF does an awful lot of this head shaking and hand wringing. I find it easier just to accept that others often have opinions and beliefs that differ from mine.
Thank you for this lucid observation.
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Old 12-30-2014   #38
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Mark Twain once wrote, that it is better to be silent so folks won't know for sure how stupid you are. Well that could be me.
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Old 12-30-2014   #39
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Roger, Roger, Roger...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

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Old 12-30-2014   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
This thread has no purpose other than to be somewhat confrontational and is aimed squarely at another thread that was started a few days ago.

We are free to ignore that thread and others like it and pass by them if we choose 'without' becoming involved ... so this kind of retaliation seems a little pointless to me.

Just my two cents ... I prefer world peace and turning the other cheek and all that stuff!
Hi, Keith, Roger, and all.

I cannot deny that the thread I started could be characterized as a deliberate search for confirmation bias. However, as I explained at the start and in the midst of that thread, my reasons for starting the thread were completely different. I'd been watching a lot of arguing back and forth about a particular brand, and it seemed to me fruitless. In addition, implicit and explicit pressure not to post, to remain silent, was being directed at people who were posting their negative experience with certain cameras. For these two reasons, I thought it would be a good idea to separate the conversation into two threads, rather than have a duel.

I was trying to perform a community service. Probably bungled the attempt, but my motives were thus.

I recognize that for modern people, this approach might be understood to violate what has been considered one of the founding principles of the European Enlightenment. The idea is basically that each and every person, by virtue of being human, is endowed with essentially the same capacity for reason as any other human. Each individual is endowed with the capacity for autonomous reason. Hence, an enlightened society conceived in accordance with this principle should give a central place to reasonable debate. For it is ostensibly only through a process of reasonable debate, in which I try to persuade you and you try to persuade me, that the community as a whole arrives at conclusions heading towards the truth.

While I think that the idea is basically a good one, it is based on many assumptions and presuppositions that are highly problematic.

It's an especially important issue to reconsider in an age of advanced globalization, an age that can be characterized as one in which all kinds of people who previously might never have been put into contact are now in direct contact. As a result, there no longer exists any single standard that can be accepted by all.

In this kind of situation, I believe that we are going to need other communal forms than simply the one unique form of reasonable debate (which as we know, hardly ever proceeds exclusively or even principally on the basis of reason). Or again, I think that we need to invent new forms of relationship that allow for something like parallel universes that can still be cross-read and shared.

There have been so many threads here at RFF that end up being pitched battles between camps of detractors and advocates.

Ironically, I remember that one of the members who posted in that thread that I started, a person whom one of the other people posting in that thread characterized as a "spokesman" for a certain brand, was actually on the other side of the fence not more than a year ago. At that time I was one of the few people who was constantly posting replies to that member's advocacy of a then-new full-frame mirrorless body (he often used the word "superior") that reminded people of the unique advantages of the coincident rangefinder and the sensor tuned for M lenses. Today, it seems as if the positions have switched 180 degrees. I've seen this happen on RFF so many times. It's given me a much greater appreciation for the play at work here, as well as a heightened sense of modesty and less personal investment.

I like the ethos of live and let live, and I also appreciate the continuing value of reasoned debate. Yet I think that the world, we, need(s) to invent new forms of communal interaction in addition to what we have so far.

It's my birthday today, so I won't be near the internet, hence unable to read and respond for a day or two. Happy New Year to all!
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