The Rigid Summiron : different versions?
Old 08-21-2013   #1
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
The Rigid Summiron : different versions?

I have a 50/2 rigid Summicron from the 1950's. I recall aing read some thread at RFF in which a gentleman pointed out tht the Rigid Summicron changed in its optical design. Has anyone here found another thread in which such a fact/claim was replicated? It seems that the "earlier version" had 7 elements while the "later version" has 6 elements. Could it be that the earlier version was a transition lens from collapsible to rigid?

This is my alltime favorite lens, so I am curious about its history.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #2
BLKRCAT
99% Film
 
BLKRCAT's Avatar
 
BLKRCAT is offline
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,769
I thought that there was some coating changes after a certain serial number. Maybe at the same time they took in/threw out an element? I cant remember the exact serial number. My rigid summicron had the earlier coating which didn't hold up to the test of time. Maybe that will put you on the right track?
__________________
TumblrYoutube
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #3
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
There would have to be a new design for fewer elements.
My 1957 version lens is still in mintish state and with excellent coating.
Maybe someone who has taken apart several such lenses can help us out.
I don't know if Sherry Krauter or Don Goldberg would be willing to disuss such an issue.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #4
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,250
The rigid (SOSIC / 11818) and DR Summicron (SOMNI / 11918) remained the same 7 element design from 1956 - 1968, Raid. The formula and coatings might have been slightly tweaked over the years, but the basic 7 element configuration remained the same.

The next Summicron ("v3", 11817, 1969 - 1981) has 6 elements, and very early lens barrels look similar to the rigid. It is also sometimes called "Rigid 2" - maybe this is what you mean ?

Roland.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #5
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Brian said it differently, Roland. Maybe he was wrong, but he has taken apart so many lenses.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #6
Rogrund
Antti Sivén
 
Rogrund's Avatar
 
Rogrund is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lund, Sweden
Age: 52
Posts: 1,937
Maybe this can help you, Raid. It seems like the third version had six elements.
__________________
regards, Antti

My new RFF Gallery
My flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #7
Ronald M
Registered User
 
Ronald M is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,498
There was a collapsible, two versions of DR/Rigid optics, 1969 and current.

At one point, I had both versions of the DR/Rigid in front of me. The flatness of the front element was obviously different. Also two versions of the DR eyes was required depending on if you had an early or late model..
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #8
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Hi Ronald,
This is what I saw in some thread here. Do you know at which serial number (supposely) the lens changed in design?
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #9
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Brian said it differently, Roland. Maybe he was wrong, but he has taken apart so many lenses.
Brian sometimes calls v3 "Rigid 2", Raid. See here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=88852, for instance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #10
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Could be. Still, there may be some chance that he meant the lens that followed the collapsible. I will have to ask him.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #11
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,250
As a reference, might I suggest you look into [1] as well ?

[1] "Leica An Illustrated History: Volume II - Lenses", James L. Lager, Lager Limited Editions, 1994, ISBN 978-0963697325.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #12
x-ray
Registered User
 
x-ray's Avatar
 
x-ray is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tennessee USA
Age: 70
Posts: 4,625
Since 68 I've owned the collapsible, rigid, DR, 1969 version and a 1980 version with the rounded tab. The collapsible I'm not certain about but the Rigid and DR were the same with the 1969 black barrel German made was distinctly different. I seem to recall it had one less element as mentioned. It's my understanding all versions after that were different than the 69. Those later versions were all the same optically.

My favorite was the Black German 69.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #13
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
 
Dez's Avatar
 
Dez is offline
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Minnesota North Woods
Posts: 1,531
I think this is the info you need. I have always wondered about all the different versions people keep tossing around. This table seems to sum it up pretty well.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/50m...ison-table.htm

Cheers,
Dez
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #14
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Hi Dez,
I have seen this chart before. It may not address special production versions, like the above mentioned 1969 black version.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #15
Erik van Straten
Registered User
 
Erik van Straten's Avatar
 
Erik van Straten is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,450
This might help you, Raid, makes fascinating reading:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ra_Accessories

Erik.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #16
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Thanks for the link, Erik.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #17
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,180
Here is some shots from my iPhone showing the v2 a 7 element and v3 and 4 being 6 element design from Mr. Puts lens compendium. He does allude to possibility of a transitional design in the way he worded his info later. I think it is ok to post the lens diagrams from the book.

Not sure if this is what u were looking for raid.

Gary
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image-1143765912.jpg (33.8 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg image-1264702980.jpg (35.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg image-582884903.jpg (38.4 KB, 7 views)
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #18
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Thank you Gary.
I am wondering if the first Rigid Summicron has more tjan one optical design or not.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #19
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Thank you Gary.
I am wondering if the first Rigid Summicron has more tjan one optical design or not.
I c I thought u were talking about second to newer.

Both the v1 and 2 are 7 element designs according to Mr. Puts. But mentions that it is a different formula design calling it a LaK9 type.. And an increase in the air lens lens distance between the first and second lens shape from 0.28 to 1.52. Difference in shape of second lens shape as well.

Within 1957 v2 was the introduction of the dr version but he says these actually had identical optical cells.

Gary
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #20
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,180
The v1 optical diagram


Gary
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image-3388440519.jpg (32.3 KB, 5 views)
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #21
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
This is very interesting information, Gary.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #22
helenhill
Chasing Shadows ... Light
 
helenhill's Avatar
 
helenhill is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: New Yawk
Posts: 5,579
I have tried all different 50 summicrons...
There ALL wonderful !!

But my Favorite is a 1969 50 summicron, which i refer to as v3
A hint more contrast, a tad modern, yummy good, mKes me Smile when I see the Results
__________________
Flickr.

________________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-21-2013   #23
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Isn't there a version "that everybody hates"?
Is is v3?
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-22-2013   #24
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
 
Dez's Avatar
 
Dez is offline
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Minnesota North Woods
Posts: 1,531
I doubt if there is any version that everybody hates. In fact I doubt that there is any version that doesn't have someone somewhere loudly insisting it's the best. I think we are comparing levels of excellence here. All Summis are excellent; some are more excellent than others. One could also say "All Summis are horribly expensive; some are more horribly expensive than others." The CV line of lenses tends to show that both of these characteristics don't necessarily go together.

Cheers,
Dez
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-22-2013   #25
Ronald M
Registered User
 
Ronald M is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,498
If chrome, the first version has a narrow focus ring like the chart on KR site. It is also bright chrome. Rigid and DR were the same.

Later versions of both were satin chrome with wide ribbed focus ring like the Rigid shown on K Rockwells site.

The first Rigid was also made in black paint. A friend has one.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-23-2013   #26
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
It is quite confusing, but maybe there is nothing to dwell on since all rigid Summicrons are excellent lenses. So "Version II Rigid Summicron" may be the same as "Version III Summicron". There may exist some transition lenses, but if nobody has written on such a rare lens version, then we would not know either here.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-23-2013   #27
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
.... there may exist some transition lenses, but if nobody has written on such a rare lens version, then we would not know either here.
As mentioned above by me and another poster, there is a rare version of the 6 element Summicron v3 ("rigid II"/11817) with "rigid I" (knurled) focusing mount. This is documented with pictures in Lager [1], and I seem to remember one being in the classifieds years ago.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-23-2013   #28
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,619
Thank you, Roland. This is the version that some people have been talking about. Brian mentioned to me the changed distances between the elements.
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 06-30-2019   #29
Montag
Registered User
 
Montag is offline
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 45
Could anyone advise what type this one is?


Is it the same design as the Collapsible, or the '2nd' Summicron?
I couldn't find any reference for one like this.
11818 or ?
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:28.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.