Old 11-19-2019   #41
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Originally Posted by Noserider View Post
This is totally due to packaging failure of the new Xtol. Once again "Kodak" screws the pooch with a great product. I wonder how many people got burned with the 120 paper backing issue and how much that cost them in warranty replacement. I have a buddy who bought a large amount of the bad backing paper film and got all of it replaced by Kodak, and was a sad moment to have to trash all those unusable rolls of 120. Maybe 20-30 Pro-Packs of 5 hit the garbage. I also wonder how many people will decide not to use Xtol from this point on due to the uncertainty of any Xtol.
I bought a large batch of TMAX400 in 120 size and as it turned out, EVERY LAST roll was ruined by the paper. Some of my most cherished moments with my family were shot with that film and it was all ruined. Horrific. I have never had a film failure like that before. Ever. I was so disgusted with Kodak I just tossed the remaining 40-50 rolls into the garbage and ate the loss. Money could not restore those trips overseas with my family.

I have not shot one frame of Kodak film since then.
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Old 11-19-2019   #42
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Back to D-76. Been around forever and every company knows how to make it. Good developer also. Biggest advantage to me of Xtol was it seemed to last forever.
Yes D76, Metol, hydroquinone, sodium sulfate, borax.
Developing agents from Photographers Formulary, SS from the chemistry store, borax is 20 mule team from the laundry aisle.

Mix your own and you know how old it is and what is in it and it costs me 50 cents a liter.

Similar stuff in Dektol or D72 except sodium carbonate, Chemistry Store also.

You need a balance and stir rod and thermometer.
Small electronic scale, magnetic stirrer, Erlenmeyer flask, and magnetic stir rods make it really easy.
Get the one liter plastic flasks on Amazon.

When we changed vendors at work or started a new product, there was a first article inspection. What is wrong with Kodak?
Not my yellow father any more.
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Old 11-19-2019   #43
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Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
Yes D76, Metol, hydroquinone, sodium sulfate, borax.
Developing agents from Photographers Formulary, SS from the chemistry store, borax is 20 mule team from the laundry aisle.

Mix your own and you know how old it is and what is in it and it costs me 50 cents a liter.

Similar stuff in Dektol or D72 except sodium carbonate, Chemistry Store also.

You need a balance and stir rod and thermometer.
Small electronic scale, magnetic stirrer, Erlenmeyer flask, and magnetic stir rods make it really easy.
Get the one liter plastic flasks on Amazon.

When we changed vendors at work or started a new product, there was a first article inspection. What is wrong with Kodak?
Not my yellow father any more.

I believe you meant to say sodium sulfite, not sodium sulfate.

Sodium carbonate is also available in the supermarket as washing soda.
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Old 11-19-2019   #44
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Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
Yes D76, Metol, hydroquinone, sodium sulfate, borax.
Developing agents from Photographers Formulary, SS from the chemistry store, borax is 20 mule team from the laundry aisle.

Mix your own and you know how old it is and what is in it and it costs me 50 cents a liter.

Similar stuff in Dektol or D72 except sodium carbonate, Chemistry Store also.

You need a balance and stir rod and thermometer.
Small electronic scale, magnetic stirrer, Erlenmeyer flask, and magnetic stir rods make it really easy.
Get the one liter plastic flasks on Amazon.

When we changed vendors at work or started a new product, there was a first article inspection. What is wrong with Kodak?
Not my yellow father any more.
It is also possible to make up a phenidone/ascorbate based substitute for Dektol and avoid the use/exposure to/discharge to the environment of metol and hydroquinone.

I've been using my own version of a Phenidone/ascorbate paper developer
for three years now with results indistinguishable from Dektol on Ilford variable contrast paper (the only paper that I use).
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Old 11-19-2019   #45
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Any confuison beyond this point is on you guys.
If you say so. Sorry about your problem, and good luck with your solution. My 2c - liquid developer concentrate, of any type.
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Old 11-19-2019   #46
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This is totally due to packaging failure of the new Xtol. Once again "Kodak" screws the pooch with a great product. I wonder how many people got burned with the 120 paper backing issue and how much that cost them in warranty replacement. I have a buddy who bought a large amount of the bad backing paper film and got all of it replaced by Kodak, and was a sad moment to have to trash all those unusable rolls of 120. Maybe 20-30 Pro-Packs of 5 hit the garbage. I also wonder how many people will decide not to use Xtol from this point on due to the uncertainty of any Xtol.

The two causes of the original sudden death Xtol were eventually determined and Xtol was stable for me (and others) for years in use my lab running it replenished. I'd mix between 2-3 5L packages per month for several (3-5) years doing thousands of rolls. Any reports or concern about sudden death were due to either the use of Xtol in an older package or not taking the step of at a minimum filtered water or distilled in mixing the stock.

I used to think that it any failure in the past few years was due to the iron in the water but unfortunately we now have to consider the very real possibility that all of the new Xtol product packaging is defective. I will be doing my own test with new and old packaging and believe me, I will be quite vocal to Kodak about my results, and I encourage any reader to do the same.
The sudden death problem when Xtol was first introduced many years ago was caused by a packaging problem wasn't it? Crazy that they'd repeat that same mistake 20 yrs later.
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Old 11-19-2019   #47
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The sudden death problem when Xtol was first introduced many years ago was caused by a packaging problem wasn't it? Crazy that they'd repeat that same mistake 20 yrs later.

It is unlikely that many of the technical staff who worked on Xtol problems in the past are still with Kodak.

Kodak's corporate memory walked out the door when staff was fired.
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Old 11-19-2019   #48
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Kodak will probably get it together on the packaging. It is a bit of a challenge because although Kodak is making money again. their supply train is weakening. In response vertical reintegration is underway. It's happening to Kodak and in Germany to Adox, which is causing delays in releasing film stock much to customers' frustration. In the long run, though, the firms will become more resilient as they pull suppliers under their own umbrellas.
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Old 11-19-2019   #49
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The sudden death problem when Xtol was first introduced many years ago was caused by a packaging problem wasn't it? Crazy that they'd repeat that same mistake 20 yrs later.
Chris, the packaging problem then was said to be that for some reason, never explained, the one-liter pack caused the "dreaded XTOL failure" and for some reason XTOL was OK in the five liter pack. It never made sense to me. BTW, I never had an XTOL failure in either size.

Schiller's in st. Louis, does not seem to be stocking XTOL any more. They do have D76.
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Old 11-20-2019   #50
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It is unlikely that many of the technical staff who worked on Xtol problems in the past are still with Kodak.

Kodak's corporate memory walked out the door when staff was fired.

Sad, but true. XTOL is not a recent product from Kodak. The company has substantially reduced headcount since it was released.
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Old 11-20-2019   #51
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I switched to tmax dev and haven’t looked back. Makes me wonder why I messed around with xtol for so long. It isn’t particularly cost effective though
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Old 11-20-2019   #52
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I switched to tmax dev and havenít looked back. Makes me wonder why I messed around with xtol for so long. It isnít particularly cost effective though
TMax developer is a good choice, and there are many others as well. I'll stick with Xtol because I like the quality and the low price. At my current rate of developing film I can easily finish the five liter supply before it expires, but if I slow down I would need to switch developers; there's no sin in throwing away expired Xtol but I don't like the waste.

I'll test the new Xtol with a sacrificial roll of film when I receive it, which is a good idea with any new developer of course.
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Old 11-20-2019   #53
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I switched to tmax dev and haven’t looked back. Makes me wonder why I messed around with xtol for so long. It isn’t particularly cost effective though
As far as I can tell Tmax is going be different too so you might want to look out for that.
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Old 11-20-2019   #54
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As far as I can tell Tmax is going be different too so you might want to look out for that.
Some on Photrio's analogue forums have speculated that Kodak is getting their chemicals made now by the same American supplier that makes Freestyle's store-brand chemicals, and that the Kodak products are now identical to the Freestyle products, but at higher 'Kodak' prices.

I have tried the LegacyPro Lmax (Kodak Tmax Developer) and LegacyPro L-76 (D-76) developers and have found them to work identically to the Kodak products I had that were made in Germany by Tetanal before Kodak 'reformulated' their chemicals and brought production back to the US.

I'm going to keep buying the Freestyle stuff. The Lmax developer is an especially good deal; it costs half what Kodak's Tmax Developer does!
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Old 11-20-2019   #55
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Some on Photrio's analogue forums have speculated that Kodak is getting their chemicals made now by the same American supplier that makes Freestyle's store-brand chemicals, and that the Kodak products are now identical to the Freestyle products, but at higher 'Kodak' prices.

I have tried the LegacyPro Lmax (Kodak Tmax Developer) and LegacyPro L-76 (D-76) developers and have found them to work identically to the Kodak products I had that were made in Germany by Tetanal before Kodak 'reformulated' their chemicals and brought production back to the US.

I'm going to keep buying the Freestyle stuff. The Lmax developer is an especially good deal; it costs half what Kodak's Tmax Developer does!
I ordered the LegacyPro Ecopro since its the same as XTOL and it looks like they have the foil packaging so I'm assuming they know whats up and it'll be fine. I'll just keep buying the Ecopro if all the times are the same.

Also going to switch from Kodafix to TF4. I'm not even going to attempt to keep using Kodak's stuff at this point. I don't have time to mess around or film to waste.

Also a little disappointed freestyle didn't offer to refund or replace the bad XTOL when I talked to them. They gave me Kodak's contact which seems lazy. I mean its their business. I assume they are just going to keep selling the bad XTOL. Also they initially didn't say anything when I asked what was up with the new packaging when I bought it. They only said they changed the packaging to save money. They should of said it's a new supplier.
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Old 11-20-2019   #56
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Just saw this on Twitter:

@KodakProFilmBiz: We’ve recently become aware of complaints for inactive development, 2019/08/09 date coded KODAK PROFESSIONAL XTOL Developer. We are working with the manufacturer to verify there are no further issues. If you have a problem, please contact us at [email protected]. https://twitter.com/KodakProFilmBiz/...143297/photo/1
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Old 11-20-2019   #57
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Just saw this on FB:



Jim B.
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Old 11-20-2019   #58
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Just saw this on Twitter:

@KodakProFilmBiz: Weíve recently become aware of complaints for inactive development, 2019/08/09 date coded KODAK PROFESSIONAL XTOL Developer. We are working with the manufacturer to verify there are no further issues. If you have a problem, please contact us at [email protected]. https://twitter.com/KodakProFilmBiz/...143297/photo/1
Seems like my complaing may have actually helped for once.
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Old 11-20-2019   #59
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Seems like my complaing may have actually helped for once.
Indeed it has, and thank you for reporting your experience here!
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Old 11-20-2019   #60
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Indeed it has, and thank you for reporting your experience here!
Are you with Kodak? I have a couple of questions if so.
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Old 11-20-2019   #61
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Are you with Kodak? I have a couple of questions if so.
No, just following this thread because I use Xtol.
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Old 11-20-2019   #62
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Yes D76, Metol, hydroquinone, sodium sulfate, borax.
Developing agents from Photographers Formulary, SS from the chemistry store, borax is 20 mule team from the laundry aisle.
One huge challenge to returning to using D-76 either pre-mixed or by formula is that the Hydroquinone is now much harder to have shipped. B&H is now not shipping D-76! As well shipping the raw chemical has additional restrictions, from what I can tell it is from the fact that Hydroquinone has been abused as a skin lightening agent and now ANYTHING containing it has restricted shipping. As well the very useful 1 liter size of D-76 has been discontinued. I have just processed a couple of rolls in D-76 which is the first time I've used it in perhaps 10 years since I long have appreciated the value, flexibility, consistency and quality of Xtol as well as the lesser environmental impact. This now acknowledged by Kodak concern over the new packaging of Xtol only furthers the internet sensation of Xtol Sudden Death, which I and other supporters of Xtol have long and patiently explained the reasons for on this forum and APUG. Now "Kodak" is again shooting themselves in the groin for yet another Xtol packaging failure. There is only so much product failure users will tolerate, and as indicated by the above post by Ted Striker where he threw out 40-50 rolls of 120 and vowed never to load another "Kodak" roll the lost trust of the consumer must be addressed. A good photo buddy lost 20 rolls of a once in a lifetime New Mexico road trip shot on a Rollei Hy6 to the backing paper issue and the disappointment we both felt when we processed the first rolls (totally unaware of the issue) was crushing, and her immediate words were to the effect of "F- "Kodak I'll never buy them again". How many more customers of "Kodak" will be lost not only directly from this new packaging failure but of the now continued internet repeating of Xtol Sudden Death?

Who will trust the next batch of Xtol?

Will you be willing to trust your negatives and be the next beta tester of the next packaging of Xtol?
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Old 11-20-2019   #63
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Yes D76, Metol, hydroquinone, sodium sulfate, borax.
Developing agents from Photographers Formulary, SS from the chemistry store, borax is 20 mule team from the laundry aisle.
One huge challenge to returning to using D-76 either pre-mixed or by formula is that the Hydroquinone is now much harder to have shipped. B&H is now not shipping D-76! As well shipping the raw chemical has additional restrictions, from what I can tell it is from the fact that Hydroquinone has been abused as a skin lightening agent and now ANYTHING containing it has restricted shipping. As well the very useful 1 liter size of D-76 has been discontinued. I have just processed a couple of rolls in D-76 which is the first time I've used it in perhaps 10 years since I long have appreciated the value, flexibility, consistency and quality of Xtol as well as the lesser environmental impact. This now acknowledged by Kodak concern over the new packaging of Xtol only furthers the internet sensation of Xtol Sudden Death, which I and other supporters of Xtol have long and patiently explained the reasons for on this forum and APUG. Now "Kodak" is again shooting themselves in the groin for yet another Xtol packaging failure. There is only so much product failure users will tolerate, and as indicated by the above post by Ted Striker where he threw out 40-50 rolls of 120 and vowed never to load another "Kodak" roll the lost trust of the consumer must be addressed. A good photo buddy lost 20 rolls of a once in a lifetime New Mexico road trip shot on a Rollei Hy6 to the backing paper issue and the disappointment we both felt when we processed the first rolls (totally unaware of the issue) was crushing, and her immediate words were to the effect of "F- "Kodak" I'll never buy them again". How many more customers of "Kodak" will be lost not only directly from this new packaging failure but of the now continued internet repeating of Xtol Sudden Death?

Who will trust the next batch of Xtol?

Will you be willing to trust your negatives and be the next beta tester of the next packaging of Xtol?
Try Artcraft as a source of hydroquinone. B&H seems given to lawyer sophistry these days. Perhaps B&H could direct its lawyers attention to B&H's own NY tax shenanigan's and resume selling darkroom chemistry to those you use it.

No one need trust the next batch of Xtol. My earlier comments in this thread provide a recipe for a reliable source of a phenidone/ascorbate developer to which, yes, I would be willing to trust my negatives and have done so for years.
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Old 11-20-2019   #64
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Well, you saved me on the xtol fiasco! Thanks! However, while reading this I stumbled upon the tri-x 120 paper backing fiasco I had no idea about. This weekend I took some old rolls to use them while with the family up in the mountains. I just shot 5 rolls that are part of that bad batch Womp Womp! If I had only known! Can't wait to see the numbers on my film, how disappointing.,
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Old 11-20-2019   #65
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Im down to try the next batch of XTOL. I like the results I get and I like that its not hard on the enviroment. As much as I want to be annoyed at kodak I dont want to see anymore stuff go off the film market. Fuji is already throwing in the towel on too many things.

Btw does anyone know how to identify the bad rolls of 120? I have some in the fridge id like to avoid further headache.

Also I emailed Kodak. Ill post what they say when and if they get back to me.
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Old 11-20-2019   #66
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Who will trust the next batch of Xtol?

Will you be willing to trust your negatives and be the next beta tester of the next packaging of Xtol?
Of course, why not? When Kodak reintroduced TMax400 in 120 size I resumed using it and it has performed perfectly. Assuming we're headed for a similar situation here (a bad batch identified, followed by an all-clear notice when the problem is fixed) I'll still be a customer.

It was a long and painful process for Kodak to fix the backing paper issue. Hopefully this one will be simpler, and hopefully few people will be affected. 2wenty has been even-tempered and understanding about the problem but lots of people will still be cursing Kodak on their death beds for problems like this.
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Old 11-20-2019   #67
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Well I rolled the dice a couple of days ago when this happened and ordered XTOL off amazon for the ridiculous price of $24. I asked the seller if it was new or old stock and they said old. It came today and its the new one. The A side of the pack is feels slightly better but its still clumped together like moisture got in it. Not even going to attempt to use it. So if anyone is looking for an old batch dont order off amazon. Also Ive pretty much looked everywhere and all the old ones are gone already. So good luck for anyone seeking out the older one.
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Old 11-20-2019   #68
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Anyone care for this Eco-Pro stuff that seems to give the same result as XTOL?
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Old 11-20-2019   #69
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Anyone care for this Eco-Pro stuff that seems to give the same result as XTOL?
I ordered it. As soon as it comes in, which I believe is tomorrow Ill post back here as soon as I develop. Judging that its out of stock at Freestyle Im assuming other people bought it all up. I think B&H has some but I don't order from those racist assholes. I paid double and ordered it from Amazon.
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Old 11-23-2019   #70
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Still no response from Kodak.
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Old 11-24-2019   #71
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Yes, Kodak is run by an appalling group of bean counters. It's amazing that they are still around after making one epic mistake after another. So many unforced errors by Kodak. Where's the new Super 8mm camera announced YEARS ago? Vaporware. Where are the Kodak Coins announced YEARS ago. Vaporware.

Remember Eastman Chemical? Kodak's large scale chemical company? Kodak sold it off and then went bankrupt. Eastman Chemical continues to this day being nicely profitable. Freed from Kodak's blithering management team, they prospered.
I always found it somewhat amusing that Kodak discontinued magnetic striped Super 8, which was really one of their best inventions. It was a super simple way of getting sound-synced cine at a reasonable price. For a while at least surplus Super 8 cartridges with sound stripes were going for insane prices on eBay, indicative of at least reasonably good demand.

Kodak, like some other companies who's glory days are n the past, cannot seem to accept the need to downsize to their niche strengths, which were considerable. I think they would have been better off focusing on being smaller and specialized, and getting in very close touch with the needs of their remaining customers.
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Old 11-24-2019   #72
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Picked up two packs of Xtol yesterday from my local shop, two and a half months after ordering them! The packaging is different now (see pictures), both A and B are inside a thick, white sealed plastic bag. The plastic bags seems to be of a better quality than previous. The declaration says "Made in Germany for Kodak Alaris limited" and the production date is 2019.10.07. That means these are newer than the ones Kodak has warned about and also made by another factory. The powder is nice and dry as it should be, and some minutes ago I pulled a nicely developed roll of Fuji Acros out of the tank.






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Old 11-24-2019   #73
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Picked up two packs of Xtol yesterday from my local shop, two and a half months after ordering them! The packaging is different now (see pictures), both A and B are inside a thick, white sealed plastic bag. The plastic bags seems to be of a better quality than previous. The declaration says "Made in Germany for Kodak Alaris limited" and the production date is 2019.10.07. That means these are newer than the ones Kodak has warned about and also made by another factory. The powder is nice and dry as it should be, and some minutes ago I pulled a nicely developed roll of Fuji Acros out of the tank.

So KA knew that the packaging was bad? As they changed it some time before 10.07. (lets assume that's October 7 as it ended up on the US market). When did the warning /acknowledgement appear on Facebook? Seems like some time passed in between... Of course if we give them the benefit of the doubt the new packaging could be the byproduct of the change of manufacturer and just incidentally work properly.
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Old 11-24-2019   #74
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Picked up two packs of Xtol yesterday from my local shop, two and a half months after ordering them! The packaging is different now (see pictures), both A and B are inside a thick, white sealed plastic bag. The plastic bags seems to be of a better quality than previous. The declaration says "Made in Germany for Kodak Alaris limited" and the production date is 2019.10.07. That means these are newer than the ones Kodak has warned about and also made by another factory. The powder is nice and dry as it should be, and some minutes ago I pulled a nicely developed roll of Fuji Acros out of the tank.

Thanks for the heads up. So I have 2 batches that are the previous small ones. Which sucks and no response from Kodak. I really hope they get back to me and offer some kind of replacement. As of now Im out $35 on this.

Look like I need to find the new one. I developed in D76 and DDX last night and I dont like it. I need the XTOL back.

Does your A side move around in the bag like the B side or is it thicker? Does it just pour out of the bag really easy or do you kinda have to force it out?
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Old 11-25-2019   #75
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Did you try out the EcoPro yet?

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Thanks for the heads up. So I have 2 batches that are the previous small ones. Which sucks and no response from Kodak. I really hope they get back to me and offer some kind of replacement. As of now Im out $35 on this.

Look like I need to find the new one. I developed in D76 and DDX last night and I dont like it. I need the XTOL back.

Does your A side move around in the bag like the B side or is it thicker? Does it just pour out of the bag really easy or do you kinda have to force it out?
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Old 11-25-2019   #76
2wenty
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Did you try out the EcoPro yet?
It was supposed to come last night and I was going to develop but Fedex didnt show up.
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Old 11-25-2019   #77
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Thanks for the heads up. So I have 2 batches that are the previous small ones. Which sucks and no response from Kodak. I really hope they get back to me and offer some kind of replacement. As of now Im out $35 on this.

Look like I need to find the new one. I developed in D76 and DDX last night and I dont like it. I need the XTOL back.

Does your A side move around in the bag like the B side or is it thicker? Does it just pour out of the bag really easy or do you kinda have to force it out?

There was no difference between A and B, both are really dry powder that runs out of the bag by itself. I could not see any difference from the old powder, and I have used Xtol for many years. Where are yours made, US or Germany?
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Old 11-25-2019   #78
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There was no difference between A and B, both are really dry powder that runs out of the bag by itself. I could not see any difference from the old powder, and I have used Xtol for many years. Where are yours made, US or Germany?
For sure then my other 2nd XTOL is bad too. The ECOPRO just came in. The packaging is a million times better. A and B are foil packaging and they are both inside another bigger sealed foil packaging. Both A and B parts are like they should be, super fine powder. Just like the older XTOL.

Going to develop in a little bit, Ill let you know how it goes but Im already pretty sure its going to be fine. Cant believe Freestyle is packaging Kodaks chemicals better then Kodak does. If all is the same Im just going to keep buying ECOPRO.
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Old 11-25-2019   #79
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I tired calling them but they didn't answer. Im going to try back again and send an email.

The XTOL I bought came from freestyle photo which I bought in person. Yesterday I went to Samys camera and all their bags felt the same way on the A side.

There's a guy that left a review on B&H saying the same thing I am. So I know its just not me. I'm not even made. I just wanted to bring this up to others that use XTOL so they can be careful before they run a big batch or something.
You should certainly call/visit Freestyle and give them a heads-up. They probably know who to call at Kodak about it, and they'd likely want to hear about it before a lot of angry customers descend on them.

I remember the problem Kodak had with the 1-liter version many years ago. I switched to the 5-liter mix and haven't had any problems with it.
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Old 11-25-2019   #80
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You should certainly call/visit Freestyle and give them a heads-up. They probably know who to call at Kodak about it, and they'd likely want to hear about it before a lot of angry customers descend on them.


I remember the problem Kodak had with the 1-liter version many years ago. I switched to the 5-liter mix and haven't had any problems with it.
I posted earlier in thread about this. I contacted them when it first happened. They told me to contact Kodak which is lazy as hell and I assume they just kept selling the bad stuff.
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