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Old 12-12-2018   #41
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
F3HP is outlasting and over performing Leica M2 for three times less.
You don't get leaking LCDs in a Leica M2. And you also don't seen the electronics starting to fail in a Leica M2. And you don't get to use Leica lenses on an F3.

I have two F3Ps, and several Leicas. There is no point in comparing them as they are very different.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #42
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That's just how the market works, plain and simple.
I want a 1967 Mercedes-Benz 190SL. Even more, I want a 1959 300SL. Or even a lowly 1968 280SE. They are not anywhere near the performance of a modern Subaru. They are fickle, can have reliability issues (especially the electronic fuel injected veraions) bad on gas economy, slow and generally fuddy duddy. I don't like the fact they cost so much because compared with a Subaru or Toyota or Honda they can't compete. Why aren't they less expensive?

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Leica M2 is the mercedes Benz and the ZI is the Subaru.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #43
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Leica M2 is the mercedes Benz and the ZI is the Subaru.
Sounds about right. Our Forester is just about to clock over 400,000km. A set of spark plug leads, a few sets of plugs, one rear wheel bearing (around 100km a week on dirt roads, not complaining) and a replacement clutch. Nothing else but routine maintenance and frankly not a lot of that. How many "CLAs" would many M2s have had since new by now I wonder.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #44
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Here an interesting review of the ZI: https://theonlinephotographer.typepa...er/zeiss-.html
 

Old 12-13-2018   #45
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Prices on Pentax 67 lenses are so low itīs embarrassing. Beautifully built huge glass selling for peanuts.
Leica R lenses and cameras sell for cheap.
Even Hasselblads are cheap. They used to be ultra expensive. Leicas were cheap compared to Hasselblad Zeiss lenses. Now itīs cheap. Made in Sweden. Zeiss Ikon lenses made in Germany. All cheap.

But a Cosina Zeiss Ikon body costs 1800 dollars? I could buy a Rollei F 2.8 in pristine condition for that money. And I can fix the Rollei. I doubt i could fix the ZI.
Hasselblads might be cheaper than they were when new in real terms, but your comment above very conveniently overlooks the point that some years ago they were quite a bit cheaper than they presently are, having dropped in price post digital and then, subsequently, appreciated somewhat. Like a number of other film cameras, particularly over the last couple of years or so. Don't believe me? Go compare prices for K1000, Canon AE-1 ten years ago (or even five years ago) to now. Neither of those cameras are paragons of reliability, either (dodgy K1000 meters, AE-1 mirror issues and weak wind system etc) however they fetch the prices people will pay. I personally think it's madness but clearly many others feel differently.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #46
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Leica M2 is the mercedes Benz and the ZI is the [Subaru-made] Porsche.
fixed that for you
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Old 12-13-2018   #47
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Hasselblads might be cheaper than they were when new in real terms, but your comment above very conveniently overlooks the point that some years ago they were quite a bit cheaper than they presently are, having dropped in price post digital and then, subsequently, appreciated somewhat. Like a number of other film cameras particularly, over the last couple of years or so. Don't believe me? Go compare prices for K1000, Canon AE-1 ten years ago (or even five years ago) to now. Neither of those cameras are paragons of reliability, either (dodgy K1000 meters, AE-1 mirror issues and weak wind system etc) however they fetch the prices people will pay. I personally think it's madness but clearly many others feel differently.
I know that... even so: a used out of production camera w/ no tradition, no current bruhaha around it, costing more used than when sold on shops? It is overpricing on steroids.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #48
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Here an interesting review of the ZI: https://theonlinephotographer.typepa...er/zeiss-.html
From the review:
• The aforementioned more accurate electronically-controlled shutter, with a top shutter speed double that of the Leica's at 1/2000th and with a faster flash sync.
(vertical metal shutters on my Nikons ceased to work when stored for a long time. The horiz. on my Leica is still working.)

• The ZI is lighter, about 4/5ths the weight of the Leica. I see this as an improvement; others might not.
(a heavier camera body w/ less vibrating shutter is more stable and shakes less when you are shutting 1/15 of a second. IME)

• It's not as expensive. I see this as an improvement too, although maybe it's not one either. (now itīs more expensive.)

>It has a swing-open back, with conventional film loading. Finally. The lack of a swing-open back, which is standard on virtually every other camera that is even remotely comparable, has always been one of the crowning idiosyncrasies of the original Leica M design. Even to the point that Leica duplicated it in the digital M8, which seemed perverse to me when I tried the M8. Even some of the diehards don't bother to defend this one.
(the original Nikon F has a similar Leica arrangement: remove part of the camera to load film. NOt very user friendly but... it gives quiet loading. Nobody mentions that but the convoluted leica loading is quiet).

• It has AE with exposure compensation.
(just like a Leica M7..)

I am still not convinced to pay 1.8k for this camera. I will pay this money on other photo gear but not the ZI. Itīs a free world do as you wish.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #49
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Why do ZI rangefinders cost so much even used?
Even used??? Try buying a new one now!
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Old 12-13-2018   #50
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Even used??? Try buying a new one now!
Denial feels good until reality sets in.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #51
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Originally Posted by colker View Post
From the review:
• The aforementioned more accurate electronically-controlled shutter, with a top shutter speed double that of the Leica's at 1/2000th and with a faster flash sync.
(vertical metal shutters on my Nikons ceased to work when stored for a long time. The horiz. on my Leica is still working.)

• The ZI is lighter, about 4/5ths the weight of the Leica. I see this as an improvement; others might not.
(a heavier camera body w/ less vibrating shutter is more stable and shakes less when you are shutting 1/15 of a second. IME)

• It's not as expensive. I see this as an improvement too, although maybe it's not one either. (now itīs more expensive.)

>It has a swing-open back, with conventional film loading. Finally. The lack of a swing-open back, which is standard on virtually every other camera that is even remotely comparable, has always been one of the crowning idiosyncrasies of the original Leica M design. Even to the point that Leica duplicated it in the digital M8, which seemed perverse to me when I tried the M8. Even some of the diehards don't bother to defend this one.
(the original Nikon F has a similar Leica arrangement: remove part of the camera to load film. NOt very user friendly but... it gives quiet loading. Nobody mentions that but the convoluted leica loading is quiet).

• It has AE with exposure compensation.
(just like a Leica M7..)

I am still not convinced to pay 1.8k for this camera. I will pay this money on other photo gear but not the ZI. Itīs a free world do as you wish.
Exactly. Free market and all that. After reading your posts it sounds like the ZI isn't for you anyway even if the price were lower. No big deal, it's just a tool.
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Old 12-13-2018   #52
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Denial feels good until reality sets in.
I'm guessing you missed my point, which was: You can't buy a new ZI at any price.

Why??? Because it's discontinued. Gone. Game over. Total of 15,000 ZI cameras tops (assuming Cosina/Zeiss used every serial number in the known ranges).
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Old 12-13-2018   #53
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You don't get leaking LCDs in a Leica M2. And you also don't seen the electronics starting to fail in a Leica M2. And you don't get to use Leica lenses on an F3.

I have two F3Ps, and several Leicas. There is no point in comparing them as they are very different.
I don't even have F3HP. I was talking OP logic.

Talking by your logic...
My family FED-2 will outlast all M2. Because by the time it will be no parts, no technicians for Leica, FED-2 will be still available for parts, it is made in millions and it is DIY for anything. Including curtains.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #54
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"There is no new ZIs so the price must go up".. have a look at eBay and check prices for Pentax 67, Nikon F3 and other SLRs which are not made anymore.. Try your reasoning and see if it sticks. It doesnīt.
Have you looked at the Pentax 67II? Many of the original Pentax 67 bodies have issues. SLRs just haven`t gotten to the point where there are more bad ones than good ones... once they are scarcer, they will go up.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #55
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I know that... even so: a used out of production camera w/ no tradition, no current bruhaha around it, costing more used than when sold on shops? It is overpricing on steroids.
Well if you know that perhaps you should not have asserted that, essentially, Hasselblads etc used to be expensive, and now they are cheap. Which was the thrust of your post I quoted. That is rather different from: them being expensive; becoming affordable; and then experiencing a (relatively modest, but, still, notable) increase.

I don't know what you know. Or what you think. I only know what you've written.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #56
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My head hurts just from reading this thread. Who cares if its expensive? For whatever reason....

Don't buy one if you don't like the price.
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Old 12-13-2018   #57
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Exactly. Free market and all that. After reading your posts it sounds like the ZI isn't for you anyway even if the price were lower. No big deal, it's just a tool.
It's not the only one.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #58
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I just scrolled through the entirety of this thread: the OP does not want to buy a ZI. He believes that it is overpriced and inferior to a Leica. Case closed.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #59
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Originally Posted by Peter Wijninga View Post
I just scrolled through the entirety of this thread: the OP does not want to buy a ZI. He believes that it is overpriced and inferior to a Leica. Case closed.
Your summary misses an important discovery, namely that my Leica has a previously unknown to me "quiet load" feature. Well it's quiet except for me cursing at it.
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Old 12-13-2018   #60
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Your summary misses an important discovery, namely that my Leica has a previously unknown to me "quiet load" feature. Well it's quiet except for me cursing at it.
This is true. Though I'm not sure how much louder my F2 is when loading it compared with my M4. Further, why is quiet film loading needed? Is it an inherently loud activity? I think the Leica M loading makes one quieter as you hold the bottom plate in your teeth.
This statement is really ridiculous though. Quiet film loading? Maybe compared to a motorized camera.
It's not quiet when that bottom plate falls to the ground and a loud expletive is released from the user's mouth.
Ridiculous.

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Old 12-13-2018   #61
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I've had one since they first came out. It's one of my least-used cameras, although the finder is superior to any other rangefinder I've ever used. Every so often, I'll load it, shoot a roll, be more than satisfied with the results, and then put it back for another couple of months. I don't want to sell it just because I know at some time I will want another and have to pay more for a used one than I did when I bought it new. The current cost is set by the market - supply and demand. If you don't want to pay the price, do without. It's that simple.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #62
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This is true. Though I'm not sure how much louder my F2 is when loading it compared with my M4.
Well, of course there is that slightly-audible "click" when the rear door latches shut...
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Old 12-13-2018   #63
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...(the original Nikon F has a similar Leica arrangement: remove part of the camera to load film. NOt very user friendly but...
Sort of like a Contax eh?
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Old 12-13-2018   #64
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Well, of course there is that slightly-audible "click" when the rear door latches shut...
If we'd really want to get to the bottom of this and move into hard-core gear head territory, we'd be sharing youtube clips comparing "click" noise levels...
 

Old 12-13-2018   #65
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If we'd really want to get to the bottom of this and move into hard-core gear head territory, we'd be sharing youtube clips comparing "click" noise levels...
I thought you said "case closed".. why are you still posting?

Itīs not "hard core gear". Photographers have to shoot in places where any click is disturbing. The less the better but you wouldnīt know that. Stop pretending. You are not hardcore.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #66
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If we'd really want to get to the bottom of this and move into hard-core gear head territory, we'd be sharing youtube clips comparing "click" noise levels...
"Your camera is a brick and an antique."
"Well yours is made of paper mâché and tape."
"Your shutter sounds like a barn door closing."
"And yours vibrates like a Harley Davidson."

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Old 12-13-2018   #67
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I've had one since they first came out. It's one of my least-used cameras, although the finder is superior to any other rangefinder I've ever used. Every so often, I'll load it, shoot a roll, be more than satisfied with the results, and then put it back for another couple of months. I don't want to sell it just because I know at some time I will want another and have to pay more for a used one than I did when I bought it new. The current cost is set by the market - supply and demand. If you don't want to pay the price, do without. It's that simple.
yes. Some cameras are overpriced on ebay while others are a bargain. Itīs simple. I agree.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #68
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Well, of course there is that slightly-audible "click" when the rear door latches shut...
Try that slightly audible click while shooting on a film set. There is a book on Magnumīs photos of film sets.

I had a horrible argument once w/ a spectator while i was shooting ballet in a theatre and my job was cancelled. I had a dslr. Now i shoot w/ Sonys and have no trouble. Noise from camera can be amplified in certain places.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #69
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As a data point on pricing fwiw; When this camera was announced I pre-ordered the kit with the 50/2 ZM lens (should have ordered the 85/2!). It came labeled as a special edition on the top plate, fancy box, with a crystal Zeiss inaugural edition paper weight.
I kept it for about a year, wasn’t that knocked out by it, hard to explain why, and put the entire kit, lens, body, box, paperweight and all,, up for sale here for $850. It took weeks to sell, only selling after the head bartender posted “why doesn’t somebody buy this?” under the ad. I’ve often wondered if someone here still has it.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #70
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I thought you said "case closed".. why are you still posting?
Case closed, you're not going to buy a ZI. This said, your ''quiet loading" claim is garnering interest among the RFF constituency. Don't hesitate to elaborate on your findings, either here, or in a separate post.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #71
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Try that slightly audible click while shooting on a film set..... I thought you would know that.
You don't even know me.
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Old 12-13-2018   #72
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Case closed, you're not going to buy a ZI. This said, your ''quiet loading" claim is garnering interest among the RFF constituency. Don't hesitate to elaborate on your findings, either here, or in a separate post.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #73
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You don't even know me.
So you have shot inside a theater and you have shot film stills of movie productions.. So you know what i am talking about. Right?
 

Old 12-13-2018   #74
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Try that slightly audible click while shooting on a film set. There is abook on Magnumīs photos of film sets.
Magnum's Eve Arnold tried it on film sets with her SLRs. Seemed to work fine for her. Perhaps she just knew when to make tiny clicks and when to not. Seems simple enough.
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Old 12-13-2018   #75
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From the review:
• The aforementioned more accurate electronically-controlled shutter, with a top shutter speed double that of the Leica's at 1/2000th and with a faster flash sync.
(vertical metal shutters on my Nikons ceased to work when stored for a long time. The horiz. on my Leica is still working.)

• The ZI is lighter, about 4/5ths the weight of the Leica. I see this as an improvement; others might not.
(a heavier camera body w/ less vibrating shutter is more stable and shakes less when you are shutting 1/15 of a second. IME)

• It's not as expensive. I see this as an improvement too, although maybe it's not one either. (now itīs more expensive.)

>It has a swing-open back, with conventional film loading. Finally. The lack of a swing-open back, which is standard on virtually every other camera that is even remotely comparable, has always been one of the crowning idiosyncrasies of the original Leica M design. Even to the point that Leica duplicated it in the digital M8, which seemed perverse to me when I tried the M8. Even some of the diehards don't bother to defend this one.
(the original Nikon F has a similar Leica arrangement: remove part of the camera to load film. NOt very user friendly but... it gives quiet loading. Nobody mentions that but the convoluted leica loading is quiet).

• It has AE with exposure compensation.
(just like a Leica M7..)

I am still not convinced to pay 1.8k for this camera. I will pay this money on other photo gear but not the ZI. Itīs a free world do as you wish.
And, the finder is very nice as well.
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Old 12-13-2018   #76
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You have no idea what you are talking about.
Oops, wrong answer. Try again, this time with a bit more vigor and insight.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #77
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Case closed, you're not going to buy a ZI. This said, your ''quiet loading" claim is garnering interest among the RFF constituency. Don't hesitate to elaborate on your findings, either here, or in a separate post.
Who do you call constituency? There is all kinds of people here including a large number of experienced photographers.

You are playing hardcore w/ sarcasm and all but seems you have no experience w/situations where camera noises are amplified.

I asked what would trigger the price up.. i didnīt ask you to decide if i am buying or not. I am sick of rude people on internet forums. Play nice and show respect for others.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #78
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Oops, wrong answer. Try again, this time with a bit more vigor and insight.
I just did but i will repeat myself: being sarcastic on internet forums does not make you an expert on anything. Showing expertise does.

Itīs rangefinder forum right? ... not foolīs corner.
 

Old 12-13-2018   #79
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I just scrolled through the entirety of this thread: the OP does not want to buy a ZI. He believes that it is overpriced and inferior to a Leica. Case closed.
Case closed.

And thread closed.
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Old 12-13-2018   #80
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1.7k for a used body? A cosina made camera just like a Nikon FM2? Is it that much better made than a FM2?
Because it was made by Cosina.

The FM2 was made by Nikon, not Cosina.

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