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Anyone else lost w/Leica digital M cameras names??
Old 04-29-2016   #1
Timmyjoe
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Anyone else lost w/Leica digital M cameras names??

Leica M cameras used to be easy to follow, M3, M2, M4, M5, M4-P, M6, M6TTL, M7, MP. Even when they first went digital, M8, M8.2, M9, M9-P, ME, Monochrom.

Then came the digital Leica "M", then the "M-P" (not to be confused with the MP) (Typ 240), then the Monochrom (Typ 246)(not to be confused with the Monochrom), then the (Typ 240) Leica 60, then the (Typ 262) and now the (Typ 262) M-D.

I'm like "Whaaaaaaa . . . ???"

Could Leica possibly throw more variations out on the market and make this more confusing?

Best,
-Tim
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Old 04-29-2016   #2
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I kind of like the new naming system. When I tell fellow Leica users I have an M240, they know exactly what I mean.

Jim B.
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Old 04-29-2016   #3
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What is an M240? Is that the original Leica "M" that came out a few years ago, or is that the newer, no front logo Leica "M"?
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Old 04-29-2016   #4
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Sorry, not going to bite. You want to argue for the sake of arguing. I’m not going down that road.

Jim B.
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M9
Old 04-29-2016   #5
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M9

I've felt since the announcement of the 240 that the M camera ended with M9. It was the last one to retain the simplicity that was the hallmark of Leica M in the camera world. It has a bright viewfinder and a real rangefinder. While size and weight grew from M6 (this began with TTL model), I found it still manageable with the M8 as my first jump from M2/M6. When the M6TTL was introduced many felt that the size difference coupled with the shutter dial traveling in the opposite direction was startling to say the least.

On the 240, with the addition of live view, a microphone and video capability this camera is IMHO something different. I have nothing against live view and use it in other cameras I own, but for me that is not what an M camera is about.

So the three digit numbers are fine as far as I am concerned.

David
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Old 04-29-2016   #6
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As I have said before, I really believe the new Leica naming system is a marketing effort
to intentionally confuse Leica fans
in order to encourage them to visit their nearest Leica Store for clarification.

Of course the no questions asked Leica super faithful think my theory is silly.
Maybe they are too busy visiting their local Leica store to think about it.
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Old 04-29-2016   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DwF View Post

On the 240, with the addition of live view, a microphone and video capability this camera is IMHO something different. I have nothing against live view and use it in other cameras I own, but for me that is not what an M camera is about.

So the three digit numbers are fine as far as I am concerned.
And I guess all of these cameras were in the works, so M10 just wouldn't work anymore.
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Old 04-29-2016   #8
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It is common question which I have seen as the thread couple of times. One was here for sure.
I'm completely lost. But from practical point of view it is very simple. The only model I have to know is M8. This is the only one from digital Leicas I want and might be able to afford. The knowing of the rest is as practical as navigation by stars. Same reaching distance and same situation with difficult to remember names.
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Old 04-29-2016   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
And I guess all of these cameras were in the works, so M10 just wouldn't work anymore.
To say nothing of M10.1 or is that ME.1?
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You are missing the M1
Old 04-29-2016   #10
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You are missing the M1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
Leica M cameras used to be easy to follow, M3, M2, M4, M5, M4-P, M6, M6TTL, M7, MP. Even when they first went digital, M8, M8.2, M9, M9-P, ME, Monochrom.

Then came the digital Leica "M", then the "M-P" (not to be confused with the MP) (Typ 240), then the Monochrom (Typ 246)(not to be confused with the Monochrom), then the (Typ 240) Leica 60, then the (Typ 262) and now the (Typ 262) M-D.

I'm like "Whaaaaaaa . . . ???"

Could Leica possibly throw more variations out on the market and make this more confusing?

Best,
-Tim
Imagine the lack of sales if they all were labeled in an increasing number? This way, it is hard to anyone to know if they have the latest one. I have a catalog for the M1, it does not come with rangefinder, but it could became an M2 if you add one, that is what the catalog says.
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Old 04-29-2016   #11
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Makes as much sense as Canon or Nikon DSLR nomenclature.
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Old 04-29-2016   #12
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It sort of seems like Leica is now creating niche product sub-groups for their overall niche product line.
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Old 04-29-2016   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinaw View Post
Sorry, not going to bite. You want to argue for the sake of arguing. I’m not going down that road.

Jim B.
Actually I'm not Jim. I thought the original Leica "M" was the 240, but then I see 240 associated with the Leica "M-P".

What was the numbering of the original Leica "M" digital, the first one with the CMOS sensor?
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Old 04-29-2016   #14
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I think that the original name of the Leica M240 is really Leica M Model 240. So other Leica M's with different features would have different model names ie 262, M-P, etc. Still sort of confusing.
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Old 04-29-2016   #15
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Tim,

I posted a rant months ago..., totally confused.

A hell of a way to do marketing IMO. Leica does some pretty stu... uh, strange things. I wish them well but even if I had the money, I would not what to spend it on. It makes me wonder if they have a clue about the future products when they couldn't even come up with an M10 or R10. Now they are in an alphabet soup with type classifications. What's up with that?
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Old 04-29-2016   #16
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Ha! I love what the Head Bartender said...:-))

Trouble is, there is no Leica store within a hard day's drive of Atlanta!!
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Old 04-29-2016   #17
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Non-Leica owner here but someone with a question...
Do the numbers 240, 246 or 262 stand for anything...???
Is the 240 the same as the Monochrom...???
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Old 04-29-2016   #18
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So is it Leica "M" 240, and Leica "M-P" 240? Are they both "240's" and they're distinguished by one being "M" 240 and one being "M-P" 240? Or was the original CMOS censored Leica "M" called some other number?
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Old 04-29-2016   #19
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Yes. (In a word). I was only thinking this last night when looking at this site and thinking "I am lost - oh for the good old days of Leica Ms and Leica Rs and that's it."

http://www.reddotforum.com/content/c...announcements/
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Old 04-29-2016   #20
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At first I thought that the number 240 referred to the mpixels of the sensor, ie 24 and the body was an M. But then does the 262 have 26.2 megs? Nope. Back to the drawing board from hell.
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Old 04-29-2016   #21
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At first I thought that the number 240 may refere to the number of mpixels of the sensor, ie 24 and the body was an M. But then does the 262 have 26.2 mpixels? Nope. Back to the drawing board from hell. I really think that Leica missed out by not namimg the "M" the M10 and therefore showing the continuing tradtion of classic rangefinder cameras into the Digital age. Afterall the "M" is not revolutionary but just an improvement on the M9. If anything the differences from the M8 to the M9/M240 was a much greater improvement with the full size sensor though I am sure some would say not so much with the use of a CMOS over the older more film like CCD. If Leica stays to form the next iteration of the Rangefinder Digital will be named the M10 similar to the M3-M2-M4.
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Old 04-29-2016   #22
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There sure isn't any conspiracy theory to 'confuse' buyers. Utter nonsense.

Or maybe there is something to it. Was the M film body naming convention all that consistent and easy to understand either?

First M: M3. Named for three frame lines, 50-90-135.
Next: M2. Does this mean second M body, if so why was the first one named M3 and not M1? Does M2 mean only two frame lines? No.
Next: MP, released concurrently with the M2. Why a letter now after the 'M' and not a number? What does 'P' represent?
Next: M1. Why 1? In this case, no rangefinder. Why not call it an M0?
Next: MD. Back to letters; what does the 'D' represent? Apparently, no rangefinder, no viewfinder.
Next: MD-a. Why a small letter 'a'? Why the introduction of a dash after the 'D'?
Next: M4. Four frame lines, 35-50-90-135. Now we're back in business, picking where the M3 left off. But why so much confusion after M3?
Next: M5. Five frame lines? No, four. But the first M with an in camera meter. Why not call it an MM? Or MM5? Or MM1?
Next: M4-2. Canadian version of M4. Why a dash between the '4' and the '2'? Why not use a small letter 'a' after M4 as with the MD-a? OK, M4-2, second version of the M4.
Next: MD-2. Second version of MD. Now consistent with convention of M4 and M4-2. But again what does 'D' represent? Dummy?
Next: M4-P. Back to the inclusion of the mysterious letter 'P'. But the 'P' doesn't directly follow the 'M' any longer.
Next: M6. Follows the M5. OK.
Next: M6TTL: M6 with through-the-lens metering. Starting to make sense again. However, in addition to new metering, the shutter speed selector now turns in the opposite direction of its predecessors. With these changes it's not really an updated M6. Why not call it an M7?
Next: M7. Follows the M6. Leica is starting to get it right, except this camera should have been M8 as the M6TTL should have been M7.
Next: MP. Oh wait, Leica used this over 40 years ago. Reintroduction? No. Apparently 'MP' stands for 'mechanical perfection'. But what about the 1950's MP? Perfection by definition is unsurpassed. But Leica apparently surpassed its first perfection with the new MP.

The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Old 04-29-2016   #23
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I would think a knowledge of German would be handy in figuring out the letter meanings. My thought is that it keeps people talking about their camera. Like Stephen said, it's a marketing tool.
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Old 04-29-2016   #24
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The final straw for me was an email I got from Leica today. Pushing the new M-D (Typ 262). And I'm thinking, 262, I thought that camera had been out for a while. Then I saw the ISO dial on the back instead of an LCD, and I thought, no, that's that limited edition 60 thing. So I went to the B&H web site to see what this new camera was selling for, and I couldn't find it in the twelve Leica digital cameras they had listed. But there were an awful lot of M bodied digitals, all with these weird "Typ" numbers, and I was like, "How does anyone keep this straight?"
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Old 04-29-2016   #25
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Old 04-29-2016   #26
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I don't think it's hard to understand.
The Typ number is similar to a "class" of features.

You have the M 240, the digital M with a CMOS sensor.
And the M-P 240, which is the "P" version of the M 240.

Then the M 262, stripped down M with no live view or video.
And the new M-D 262, which is a stripped down M with no live view, no video and no LCD.

The M Monochrom 246, monochrome sensor.

These M's all use the same sensor and processor, which is why they are still known first as an M.
But have different features and designs, which is where they get the Typ number.
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Old 04-29-2016   #27
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Always remind me of my JOBO system and Gardena equipments. Maybe being counter-intuitive is a German engineering tradition?
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Old 04-29-2016   #28
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I sometimes joke with my friends when they have "problems" with their SL.... I joke with them and tell them what SL stands for....lol
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Old 04-29-2016   #29
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If I have a problem in understanding something I typically try to find some information on the internet. What company are you talking about? LEICA? Let's have a look.....Oh this company has a homepage.

https://en.leica-camera.com

Two clicks and I found this

https://en.leica-camera.com/Photogra...bigger-picture

On the bottom you find a nice overview of the products you are discussing. Long live the internet.

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Old 04-29-2016   #30
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Hi,

It's best not to ask about Leica's too much.

I can make sense of M3 (3 frame lines) but why not M3P instead of MP? Then M2 doesn't mean 2 frame lines and so on.

And someone thought it should have been M3P because the M4-P came along...

I've also often wondered why the IIIc wasn't called the IV as it was a new design with a wider body and die cast as well but there you are...

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Old 04-29-2016   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
If I have a problem in understanding something I typically try to find some information on the internet. What company are you talking about? LEICA? Let's have a look.....Oh this company has a homepage.

https://en.leica-camera.com

Two clicks and I found this

https://en.leica-camera.com/Photogra...bigger-picture

On the bottom you find a nice overview of the products you are discussing. Long live the internet.

Hmmm, it starts like this

"M – as in ‘Messsuchersystem’
‘Messsucher’, the German term for a combined rangefinder and viewfinder, found in every Leica M..."

and then I thought of the M1, MD and MDa...

Regards, David
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Old 04-29-2016   #32
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In answer to Tim's question; yes, me!

No doubt it's a marketing tool, but it has failed on me... but then, probably, I'm not Leica's intended target, having been around the block a few times.

To me the current model numbering follows little logical pattern, and has more in common with washing machine designations.
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Old 04-29-2016   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post

"M – as in ‘Messsuchersystem’
‘Messsucher’, the German term for a combined rangefinder and viewfinder, found in every Leica M..."

and then I thought of the M1, MD and MDa...

Regards, David
If you look back in the M-history, these cameras without rangefinder are sidepaths and accidents that don't define the M. For me the definition of the M is the rangefinder and in this case the marketing fits perfectly to my point of view.
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Old 04-29-2016   #34
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so, now there are two 262's?
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Old 04-29-2016   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
If you look back in the M-history, these cameras without rangefinder are sidepaths and accidents that don't define the M. For me the definition of the M is the rangefinder and in this case the marketing fits perfectly to my point of view.
Yes, they are for me too but still not logically named. And saying all M are coupled RF's is pointless when some aren't.

In fairness, they are not the only ones to do strange things, there's the Canon 'Kiss' range of cameras, aka 'EOS' and Olympus did the μ-I, μ-II, μ-III and μ-V but no μ-IV. OTOH, they did the OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 which knocks on the head the idea that the figure four is unlucky in Japanese culture. (Or perhaps they thought pro's ignore such things and P&S users are superstitious... )

It's all good fun, isn't it?

Regards, David
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Old 04-30-2016   #36
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I'm astonished that people give the the name of the product such an important role.

Once I read a strange argument that the new names make it so hard to find a product on ebay. As if a company chooses a product name with the idea in mind, that it might be easier for people, who can't afford a new product, to find it used on ebay.
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Old 04-30-2016   #37
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It's all good fun, isn't it?

Regards, David
It is...........
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Old 04-30-2016   #38
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It just proves that a company that has great engineers to build stuff uses marketin dumbasses to come up with dumbass names coz that's what they can do...
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Old 04-30-2016   #39
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Old 04-30-2016   #40
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Back in the days naming was, like in most German companies, engineer driven, what little marketing there was could not root out the internal numbering that had already been in use at all levels (including the management which usually grew out of engineering) for years. Accordingly people have grown to associate products called by type catalogue numbers with good engineering and good value for money (as a consequence of a engineering-over-marketing attitude). But these days every product (and Leica no exception) is utterly marketing driven, with some marketing agents thinking up faux names that sound like the internal development numbers of the past...
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