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Hi everyone I need your opinions on my newly purchased M4P
Old 06-24-2019   #1
cz594240300
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Hi everyone I need your opinions on my newly purchased M4P

Latest update:
This item is re-listed with exactly same description on ebay now, but the camera is still in my hands. The seller hasn't accepted the return but ebay has stepped in. Do not place any bid on this M4-P, will cost you at least 250 to fix it. This seller is a scammer.


Hi everyone, I'm a new member here.
A week ago I received my M4P from a german seller on ebay. The rangefinder seem suffers from a delamination/separation, and the seller claimed it was not like that before. I downloaded the seller's 'product image' and zoom in/ lift up the explosure, here's what I found:
( the 'you' here refers to the seller)
(hope the image uploaded successfully)\






Basicly, there's an orange region on the inner prism elements of viewfinder, which indicates a separation/de-silver ongoing( correct me if I'm wrong). The overall region takes up about 1/4-1/3 of the whole viewfinder, when looks from the front side.

I've already give a positive feedback, which is silly, as I didn't find this issue at the first place. The seller claimed in his description that the camera is in 'good condition' and a term of 'by bidding you agree on no return'

Although I've held this M4P for a week, I merely played with it as I'm busy with my schoolwork, and I have other cameras with film loaded in. I think this damage cannot be developed within such short time, and the seller might try to hide something. Do you think I wronged the seller?

I got this m4P for 700, together with a not very accurate but working MR4( I can calibrate it). The prism can be rebuild here(UK) and the overall cost is still acceptable. What would you do considering its price?

Last edited by cz594240300 : 06-24-2019 at 14:56. Reason: provide more details
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Old 06-24-2019   #2
helenhill
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You can still put in a Dispute Claim
Via ebay
Return the camera if the Seller did not mention this issue in his description.

You need to do this right away
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Old 06-24-2019   #3
cz594240300
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Thank you for the advice, I'm still waiting for seller's respond.
(btw I re-uploaded the images, should be fine now)
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Old 06-24-2019   #4
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I’m not sure the protocol with leaving positive feedback and being able to dispute/file a claim. But if you can, definitely return it. Just because the seller says no returns, doesn’t mean you can’t return it.

Something like this wouldn’t happen in a short period of time unless you live in southern Texas and you left it on the dashboard in your car for a week with the sun beaming down on it.
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Old 06-24-2019   #5
cz594240300
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I got this m4P for 700, together with a not very accurate but working MR4( I can calibrate it). The prism can be rebuild here(UK) and the overall cost is still acceptable. What would you do considering its price?
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Old 06-24-2019   #6
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Easy - he's a crook. return it for a refund. He altered the photograph, removed the delamination on purpose knowing it is a fault.

Good luck.
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Old 06-24-2019   #7
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To me, it looks like he photoshopped the finder, very clumsily. It looks obvious that there is a black block painted or rubber stamped to cover the damage. You should have no problem getting a refund by raising a complaint with PayPal. I would not even bother communicating with the seller.
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Old 06-24-2019   #8
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Just because the seller says no returns does not mean it. I’ ve returned lots of stuff on ebay that the seller says no returns. in the ad you will see a statement from ebay that you are protected. Giving feedback does not matter.
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Old 06-24-2019   #9
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890 USD is still fair, not ebay speculant, price for fully working M4-P.
They are not worth than $1K, from real user perspective.
I don't think any M2-M5 is worth of more than 1K USD. In true film M user market price.
If you are willing to spend more, watch "The Out-of-Towners".
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Old 06-24-2019   #10
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return it. I have some broken stuff you can buy at overpriced terms if you want. at least I'll tell you it's broken up front.
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Old 06-24-2019   #11
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File a claim stating "not as described". Don't even bother with seller, eBay will correspond with him and then tell you to send it back (they don't really care what the seller thinks). You can get the postage paid mailer from eBay and they will charge the seller. $800 isn't a good price when you consider the repair costs can be astronomical.
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Old 06-24-2019   #12
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a) I don't see the images
b) I think that price is high for an M4-P (imo)
c) save ALL images from eBay sales, and screen cap the listing as well
d) if seller did doctor the photo, that's fraudulent. shld be no brainer getting your money back. I hope
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Old 06-24-2019   #13
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Agree with what others have said. Contact ebay and paypal- initiate a claim. Get money back and return the camera.


Leica's are great but be patient when looking for one. They're not hard to find. The price you paid was on the high end for an M4P.
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Old 06-24-2019   #14
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Originally Posted by Beemermark View Post
File a claim stating "not as described". Don't even bother with seller, eBay will correspond with him and then tell you to send it back (they don't really care what the seller thinks). You can get the postage paid mailer from eBay and they will charge the seller. $800 isn't a good price when you consider the repair costs can be astronomical.

What he said. Emphasis bolded.
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Old 06-24-2019   #15
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Originally Posted by benlees View Post
Agree with what others have said. Contact ebay and paypal- initiate a claim. Get money back and return the camera.


Leica's are great but be patient when looking for one. They're not hard to find. The price you paid was on the high end for an M4P.
don't contact both eBay and Paypal. Just handle it through eBay.
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Old 06-24-2019   #16
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Send it back.
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Old 06-24-2019   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemermark View Post
File a claim stating "not as described". Don't even bother with seller, eBay will correspond with him and then tell you to send it back (they don't really care what the seller thinks). You can get the postage paid mailer from eBay and they will charge the seller. $800 isn't a good price when you consider the repair costs can be astronomical.
I checked the currency converter. At this moment 700 British pounds converts to $892.00. I agree with Beemermark: not worth it. I bought an M4P in practically like-new condition from a Japanese Seller for $650 within the past 6 or 8 months.
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Old 06-24-2019   #18
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Send it back, what you've written is irrelevant.

Pointless dealing with the seller, Ebay will handle it all.

Getting a repair could easily take 6 months plus (the backlog at UK repairers is considerable).
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Old 06-24-2019   #19
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German law doesnt care wether he doesnt accept returns or not, if the item was not in the condition described, you file a complain and have a right to return it. Don't hesitate and file a complaint via ebay. The side with the buyer almost every time.
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Old 06-24-2019   #20
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Once you have your refund, find a nice M2 and experience Leica nirvana
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Old 06-25-2019   #21
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Thank you for your advice, I'll return it and just stick to my another M4.
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Old 06-25-2019   #22
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Once you have your refund, find a nice M2 and experience Leica nirvana
Actually, yes. I agree with that.
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Old 06-25-2019   #23
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Actually, yes. I agree with that.
To be fair, this is my conclusion having bought a mint M4 after already owning and using a very nice M2. There is really no comparison. The M4 is engineering excellence, but the M2 is spectacular.

To the OP, good luck with the return and enjoy the replacement, whatever you choose.

Cheers,

J
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Old 06-25-2019   #24
David Hughes
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Hmmm, yes, but the problem is finding a nice M2, M4 or M4P. In a nutshell that means going to a decent dealer and finding one with a guarantee, testing it with a film and then relaxing or getting it repaired...

Here's an alternative, if you like the look and feel of the one you have in your hands; go back and complain and suggests he/she pays for the repair. The advantage is that it gets looked at by a technician and completely sorted out. And - I hope - guaranteed.

You are then in the same position you'd be in if you'd returned it and found (eventually) another nice one. The cost in money and time I'll leave to you to decide once the seller has responded etc.


Regards, David
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Old 06-25-2019   #25
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Originally Posted by cz594240300 View Post
Thank you for your advice, I'll return it and just stick to my another M4.

I think that's the way to go.


Besides that, what a small world! I believe we recently had a transaction on ebay. For everyone else, I'm not the seller of the M4-P.
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Old 06-25-2019   #26
cz594240300
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I think that's the way to go.


Besides that, what a small world! I believe we recently had a transaction on ebay. For everyone else, I'm not the seller of the M4-P.
Surprised to meet you here

For everyone else, this gentleman is absolutely trustworthy
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Old 06-25-2019   #27
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Originally Posted by cz594240300 View Post
Surprised to meet you here

For everyone else, this gentleman is absolutely trustworthy

Thank you! It was a nice surprise seeing you here, too! Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your problems with the M4-P. You should definitely return it. And you shouldn't hurry buying a new body. In my experience, the more relaxed you are when looking for something, the better the deal. But the second-hand market is full of dishonest sellers. I remember that a couple of years ago, a good friend of mine asked me to buy him a Rolleiflex camera. He wasn't particular about a model, he just wanted a good user camera. I bought the first one and I had to return it (one could barely see through the lens - whether it was fungus or haze or something else, I cannot tell). The second one did not work (I believe it suffered from light leaks) and had to return it as well. I then convinced him to abandon the idea of looking for a cheap Rolleiflex camera and instead focus on a good condition Rolleicord camera. I eventually bought one and it worked well for some 6 months or so and then developed a severe problem with the film transport. What I'm trying to say is that getting classic cameras in good working condition is increasingly hard. The ones in good working condition are usually not for sale, I'm afraid. People hang on to them - and rightly so. If you have good working M4, what good can it do to you a second similar camera? I know they are lovely contraptions, but nothing more. You have a good camera, enjoy it. Keep your cash and maybe in one year, or in two years, you'll find a better deal from someone who you trust.


Please forgive me for playing the wise one. I'm not. In fact, what I wrote above is what I try to convince myself of each day.


Regards,
Alex
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Old 06-25-2019   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru_voicu View Post
Thank you! It was a nice surprise seeing you here, too! Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your problems with the M4-P. You should definitely return it. And you shouldn't hurry buying a new body. In my experience, the more relaxed you are when looking for something, the better the deal. But the second-hand market is full of dishonest sellers. I remember that a couple of years ago, a good friend of mine asked me to buy him a Rolleiflex camera. He wasn't particular about a model, he just wanted a good user camera. I bought the first one and I had to return it (one could barely see through the lens - whether it was fungus or haze or something else, I cannot tell). The second one did not work (I believe it suffered from light leaks) and had to return it as well. I then convinced him to abandon the idea of looking for a cheap Rolleiflex camera and instead focus on a good condition Rolleicord camera. I eventually bought one and it worked well for some 6 months or so and then developed a severe problem with the film transport. What I'm trying to say is that getting classic cameras in good working condition is increasingly hard. The ones in good working condition are usually not for sale, I'm afraid. People hang on to them - and rightly so. If you have good working M4, what good can it do to you a second similar camera? I know they are lovely contraptions, but nothing more. You have a good camera, enjoy it. Keep your cash and maybe in one year, or in two years, you'll find a better deal from someone who you trust.


Please forgive me for playing the wise one. I'm not. In fact, what I wrote above is what I try to convince myself of each day.


Regards,
Alex
Words of wisdom right here. I was patient and made a bid on a Leica M3 for $550. Somehow I ended up winning with no one else making a bid. When I won and received my camera I literally cried.
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Old 06-25-2019   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru_voicu View Post
Thank you! It was a nice surprise seeing you here, too! Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your problems with the M4-P. You should definitely return it. And you shouldn't hurry buying a new body. In my experience, the more relaxed you are when looking for something, the better the deal. But the second-hand market is full of dishonest sellers. I remember that a couple of years ago, a good friend of mine asked me to buy him a Rolleiflex camera. He wasn't particular about a model, he just wanted a good user camera. I bought the first one and I had to return it (one could barely see through the lens - whether it was fungus or haze or something else, I cannot tell). The second one did not work (I believe it suffered from light leaks) and had to return it as well. I then convinced him to abandon the idea of looking for a cheap Rolleiflex camera and instead focus on a good condition Rolleicord camera. I eventually bought one and it worked well for some 6 months or so and then developed a severe problem with the film transport. What I'm trying to say is that getting classic cameras in good working condition is increasingly hard. The ones in good working condition are usually not for sale, I'm afraid. People hang on to them - and rightly so. If you have good working M4, what good can it do to you a second similar camera? I know they are lovely contraptions, but nothing more. You have a good camera, enjoy it. Keep your cash and maybe in one year, or in two years, you'll find a better deal from someone who you trust.


Please forgive me for playing the wise one. I'm not. In fact, what I wrote above is what I try to convince myself of each day.


Regards,
Alex
Thank you Alex
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Old 06-25-2019   #30
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hmmm, yes, but the problem is finding a nice M2, M4 or M4P. In a nutshell that means going to a decent dealer and finding one with a guarantee, testing it with a film and then relaxing or getting it repaired...

Here's an alternative, if you like the look and feel of the one you have in your hands; go back and complain and suggests he/she pays for the repair. The advantage is that it gets looked at by a technician and completely sorted out. And - I hope - guaranteed.

You are then in the same position you'd be in if you'd returned it and found (eventually) another nice one. The cost in money and time I'll leave to you to decide once the seller has responded etc.


Regards, David

Yes but at the price he paid for what appears to me a major repair (RF prism) it's not worth it in this case. If you want to go this route look for a camera listed as is, in nice cosmetic condition with the issue(s) listed. You can you usually get this at a good price. I've done this, had the camera shipped straight to Ye Youxin, and ended up with a nice camera.
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Old 06-25-2019   #31
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Hi,


My comments followed this "I got this m4P for 700, together with a not very accurate but working MR4( I can calibrate it). The prism can be rebuild here(UK) and the overall cost is still acceptable".


And I reckon having a camera in your hands to look at and check is worth something, like a discount as it were.


Regards, David

Last edited by David Hughes : 06-26-2019 at 00:40. Reason: Finger trouble...
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Old 06-25-2019   #32
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Personally I wouldn't get anything repaired if sold to me at a price that is close to market. I bought a dual range Summicron last year for a sensible Goldilocks price, which had a fault with the close range goggles. I get quotes from a repairer and the seller agreed to give me the money to do it. Seven months later it is still with the repairers who are having a devils own job sorting it.

Even if no problems the lead times now on most work on Leicas particularly could easily go into half years and upwards. Which takes you well past the protections of Ebay or indeed, consumer law if further issues are found. So I just send everything with undeclared faults back, and wait for something to turn up. So far, it's worked.
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Old 06-27-2019   #33
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Just some updates, this seller is so clumsy, check the image he send me as his defence...
Can you guys believe those are same camera?
Return filed, though he'll definitely turn it down. Chatted with ebay already, will ask them to step in when he refused the request.
The 'you' here refers to the seller.

He claimed the camera is 100% okay and send me the image above...

I'll spend more time to google a m4p with similar screw orientation, if I were a crook.
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Old 06-27-2019   #34
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Unfortunately I do not see any pics, just a small square box.

When I have a return with ebay, I never contact the seller outside the return process. Ebay guarantees the purchase because in the old days some sellers would claim one thing, mention No Returns, and ship junk.
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Old 06-27-2019   #35
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Originally Posted by cz594240300 View Post
Just some updates, this seller is so clumsy, check the image he send me as his defence...
Can you guys believe those are same camera?
Return filed, though he'll definitely turn it down. Chatted with ebay already, will ask them to step in when he refused the request.
The 'you' here refers to the seller.

He claimed the camera is 100% okay and send me the image above...

I'll spend more time to google a m4p with similar screw orientation, if I were a crook.
Not that you should need to but try a reverse image search and you might be able to find where he got that other picture from. Even without the difference in the screw it is obvious it was a different photographer taking the shot. Much better lighting and a different background.

Shawn
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Old 06-27-2019   #36
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Is it just me or can nobody else see any photos in this thread?
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Old 06-27-2019   #37
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File a claim stating "not as described". Don't even bother with seller
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Originally Posted by cz594240300 View Post
Just some updates, this seller is so clumsy, check the image he send me as his defence...

Not sure why you are even wasting your time communicating with the seller. Just file a "not as described" claim with eBay and be done with it. eBay will do all the hard work for you.
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Old 06-27-2019   #38
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Is it just me or can nobody else see any photos in this thread?
No, it is not just you.
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Old 06-27-2019   #39
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Stop wasting your time with the seller. A lot of scammers will engage you in conversation until the return limit ends. Just get with eBay and get your money back. Once he sees that he doesn’t have a choice he may offer to split the difference and give you money. Ack for repair or just give you all your money back.
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Old 06-27-2019   #40
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Contact Ebay and send it back. There are plenty of (healthy) fish in the ocean.
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