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A Tweet about why Agfa and Fuji are getting out of the film business.
Old 03-13-2018   #1
webOSUser
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A Tweet about why Agfa and Fuji are getting out of the film business.

Check out @finegrain_ís Tweet: https://twitter.com/finegrain_/statu...440259072?s=09

An interesting article. Hopefully not a duplicate post.

Steve W
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Old 03-13-2018   #2
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Old 03-13-2018   #3
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Interesting read. Thanks for sharing
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"A good photograph is one that makes the viewer so aware of the subject that they are unaware of the print."- Kodak
"...if you find afterwards that you made a mistake, the price of the film and chemicals was...tuition!" - greybeard
"The hard part isnít the decisive moment or anything like that Ė itís getting the film on the reel!" - John Szarkowski
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Old 09-20-2018   #4
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Twitter is so digital.
Can't they write their message just on paper and put it in a bottle?
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Old 10-19-2018   #5
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There are a few clowns over at Photrio who think Fujifilm is 100% committed to film. I hope they read this article.
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Old 10-19-2018   #6
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That article is unreadable in english.
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Old 10-22-2018   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
There are a few clowns over at Photrio who think Fujifilm is 100% committed to film. I hope they read this article.
You could always write a post over there and alert the clowns.

As for the article, the parts of it that were understandable just seemed like another opinion blog post to me.
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Old 10-30-2018   #8
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This is an excellent example how fake news are created if people without any knowledge about a certain topic mix up things they have found on the internet.
This article is completely wrong and has absolutely nothing to do with reality.
The pictures shown there are not from the Fujifilm film factory in Japan.
They are from the Fujifilm factory in Tilburg, Netherlands. And in the Tilburg factory film production was stopped already in 2008. There only some amateur color negative films exclusively for the European market were made. But never professional color negative films, color reversal films or BW films.
So the film production stop in that factory was and is completely irrelevant to current Fujifilm film production which is located in Japan.
The Fujifilm factory in Tilburg is now coating silver-halide photo paper (process RA-4) for the European markets.

And, extremely important:
This September the world's biggest photo fair took place - the Photokina in Cologne.
We've had a very nice meet-up there with several rff members. And we've visited the Fujifilm booth. Which was the best booth among all film manufacturers and companies of the silver-halide business. Almost half of the whole Fujifilm booth was dedicated to their film and silver-halide products: Instax, standard photo film, silver-halide papers (they introduced a complete new one with over 100 years lifespan), RA-4 minilab machines.
And Fujifilm made a strong commitment to film there. Not only for instax, but also for their standard films. It was presented both on a big wall and on flyers every visitor could pick up. Below you can see this flyer with the statement:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Commitment to Film from Fujifilm.jpg (47.2 KB, 43 views)
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Old 10-31-2018   #9
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Blah, blah, blah....I'm sure that we will see more and more discontinuations of film from Fuji in 2019. Their "commitment" to film is flimsy at best. A few shiny brochures do not change this fact. Look what good their "commitment" to film did to Acros.
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Old 11-01-2018   #10
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From the picture posted by Skiff - only 6 emulsions left, down from 15 since 2010, quite miserable:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/5042362476/
There is simply not enough demand to justify more.
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Old 11-03-2018   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miha View Post
From the picture posted by Skiff - only 6 emulsions left, down from 15 since 2010, quite miserable:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/5042362476/
There is simply not enough demand to justify more.
With Fujifilm doing nothing to stimulate demand.
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Old 11-03-2018   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miha View Post
From the picture posted by Skiff - only 6 emulsions left, down from 15 since 2010, quite miserable:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/5042362476/
There is simply not enough demand to justify more.
It's a shame. I'd shoot the crap out of Natura 1600 and Neopan 400/1600 if Fuji still made them (and exported then to the UK). I realise I'm probably in a minority for demand of those though.

It'd be nice if Fuji gave Venus 800 a wider release... but then the pessimist in me says that stock is not long for this world.
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Old 11-05-2018   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
It's a shame. I'd shoot the crap out of Natura 1600 and Neopan 400/1600 if Fuji still made them (and exported then to the UK). I realise I'm probably in a minority for demand of those though.

It'd be nice if Fuji gave Venus 800 a wider release... but then the pessimist in me says that stock is not long for this world.



Venus 800 has been discontinued.



I'd be there right with you shooting the hell out of Natura 1600. That is an amazing film, with shockingly beautiful colors. I discovered this film too late to shoot much of it and so lost out on its greatness for the most part. I have a brick of it in the freezer but that will be it once it is gone.


Fujifilm's dismal support of film photography has kept these gems hidden and as you said, not even available in many parts of the world. Truly awful.
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Old 11-05-2018   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
With Fujifilm doing nothing to stimulate demand.
I'm pretty sure not much can be done.
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Old 11-05-2018   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miha View Post
I'm pretty sure not much can be done.

That is patently untrue. Anything can be sold to anyone with enough skill. A good product is worth using. How can people use film if they dont know about it?



No one is talking about Fujifilm getting film use to how it was back in the day. Those days are gone forever. But film can grow in use if it is marketed properly. Fujifilm does nothing to promote film aside from INSTAX film. They are VERY successful promoting that film. They do nothing to promote their other films. Then, when there are no sales, they claim no demand and then discontinue the emulsions. If they dont try, there will NEVER be sales to justify their films.
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Old 11-05-2018   #16
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INSTAX is very different to "film" photography. It offers instant results, just like digital does, in an old-fashioned way. Youngters like it for the very reason.
Film has little* to no use today, appreciated mostly by us anoraks.

*some limited professional use / art media of choice
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Old 11-05-2018   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miha View Post
INSTAX is very different to "film" photography. It offers instant results, just like digital does, in an old-fashioned way. Youngters like it for the very reason.
Film has little* to no use today, appreciated mostly by us anoraks.

*some limited professional use / art media of choice

Film use is slowly increasing. Were it marketed better there would be more users, not less. There is no fact of science or economics that limits the use of film.
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Old 11-05-2018   #18
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Are you sure about that? I mean think about the investment needed in order to gain a tiny bit more users. In the old days most folks shot a roll a year, at least this was the norm as I remember it. Now the same people use their smart phones. What marketing could persuade them to use the medium of the past?
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Old 11-05-2018   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Film use is slowly increasing. Were it marketed better there would be more users, not less. There is no fact of science or economics that limits the use of film.
Dear Ted,

Stop with the facts, already! This is a religious war!

Cheers,

R.
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Old 11-05-2018   #20
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I see no war, Roger.
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Old 11-06-2018   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
That is patently untrue. Anything can be sold to anyone with enough skill. A good product is worth using. How can people use film if they dont know about it?



No one is talking about Fujifilm getting film use to how it was back in the day. Those days are gone forever. But film can grow in use if it is marketed properly. Fujifilm does nothing to promote film aside from INSTAX film. They are VERY successful promoting that film. They do nothing to promote their other films. Then, when there are no sales, they claim no demand and then discontinue the emulsions. If they dont try, there will NEVER be sales to justify their films.
I'm not sure what it's like in the rest of the world, but here in the UK it seems as though Fuji are actively trying not to get their films sold.

There's an interview with Matt from Ag Photographic (a UK lab / film seller) on the Sunny 16 podcast who talks about the difficulties of getting Fuji to sell him some film. Finally took an introduction from one of the Ilford directors for him to be able to get a good amount of stock at a reasonable price.

With other UK sellers, Ilford and Kodak are always present, Fuji less so. My local lab didn't stock Fuji for a long time until I started badgering him to get some Superia 400 in.

Superia was everywhere in the UK at one point, even as recently as last year, and was my go to colour stock - especially when you could pick up three packs at £12.
Now, it does feel as though Fuji are slowly withdrawing as their stored film stocks start to dry up. Instax by comparison is everywhere.

I really want to shoot some Fuji but it appears they either don't make the products I want, or for those they do they're more difficult to get hold of than Kodak or Ilford.
Bought a Nikon F4s from Aperture the other week, and they kindly threw in a free roll of ISO200 colour film. Kodak or Fuji they asked ? Fuji I said.... but of course they had no stock of the Fuji.
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Old 11-06-2018   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miha View Post
Are you sure about that? I mean think about the investment needed in order to gain a tiny bit more users. In the old days most folks shot a roll a year, at least this was the norm as I remember it. Now the same people use their smart phones. What marketing could persuade them to use the medium of the past?

Why do people paint?

Why do people sculpt?


Why do people do anything artistic?


Why do people enjoy doing things with their hands? More so than ever in today's relentlessly digital world.


Film's future is not to compete with cell phones. It's to create new users who enjoy film for film's sake.


It can be done. If only Fujifilm would try.


Sadly, Fujifilm has no interest in still photography.
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Old 11-06-2018   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
I'm not sure what it's like in the rest of the world, but here in the UK it seems as though Fuji are actively trying not to get their films sold.

There's an interview with Matt from Ag Photographic (a UK lab / film seller) on the Sunny 16 podcast who talks about the difficulties of getting Fuji to sell him some film. Finally took an introduction from one of the Ilford directors for him to be able to get a good amount of stock at a reasonable price.

With other UK sellers, Ilford and Kodak are always present, Fuji less so. My local lab didn't stock Fuji for a long time until I started badgering him to get some Superia 400 in.

Superia was everywhere in the UK at one point, even as recently as last year, and was my go to colour stock - especially when you could pick up three packs at £12.
Now, it does feel as though Fuji are slowly withdrawing as their stored film stocks start to dry up. Instax by comparison is everywhere.

I really want to shoot some Fuji but it appears they either don't make the products I want, or for those they do they're more difficult to get hold of than Kodak or Ilford.
Bought a Nikon F4s from Aperture the other week, and they kindly threw in a free roll of ISO200 colour film. Kodak or Fuji they asked ? Fuji I said.... but of course they had no stock of the Fuji.

Pretty sad story. Speaks volumes about Fujifilm's "commitment" to the future of film photography.
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Old 11-06-2018   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Why do people paint?

Why do people sculpt?


Why do people do anything artistic? I don't think it is.
So you are suggesting film is artistic? Since when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post

Why do people enjoy doing things with their hands? More so than ever in today's relentlessly digital world.
Not sure people are more eager today but I get your point, however I fail to see where film kiks in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Film's future is not to compete with cell phones. It's to create new users who enjoy film for film's sake.
I very much agree with you. No one knows for sure how to create new users I'm affraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
It can be done. If only Fujifilm would try.
I'm not sure I agree with you on this very point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Sadly, Fujifilm has no interest in still photography.
True.

Me? I'm quite selfish. I hope to be able to obtain all sorts of film from 135 to LF sheet film to feed my cameras. I fear the day when 4x5 colour becomes a thing of the past.
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Old 11-13-2018   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Blah, blah, blah....I'm sure that we will see more and more discontinuations of film from Fuji in 2019. Their "commitment" to film is flimsy at best. A few shiny brochures do not change this fact.
I bet against that.
I bet that latest in five years from now we will have a bigger standard film portfolio from Fujifilm than today.
Because Fujifilm is now seeing slowly increasing demand for their standard films. With the ongoing film revival that will increase in the coming years.
And Fujifilm is very "opportunistic" concerning market trends: They don't ignore growing markets in the long term.
There is enough evidence for that:
- when the market for instant film has turned they invested heavily in instax
- when the market for silver-halide RA-4 turned into positive they have made strong investments in new RA-4 products
- they have invested heavily in their X-system cameras when they saw the chances in that market.

The official and very clear commitment from Fujifilm at Photokina was just the first small step. More will follow in the future. Especially if we do our part and support them by buying their excellent films. Demand is the most important factor, and we can and should do our part.
Monopolys are never good for a market. And having both Kodak and Fujifilm for color films is best for us all.
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Old 11-13-2018   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Sadly, Fujifilm has no interest in still photography.
Which is just completely wrong.
They are meanwhile the biggest producer of still cameras (more than 8 million in their last fiscal year, and more of 95% of that being film cameras - instax).
They are also by far the biggest film producer worldwide. Their instax production alone is bigger than the film production of all others together. And they are not only producing more instax film every year, but also X-ray film.
At last Photokina they did a huge print exhibition (which is also on a world tour) on real photo paper. No other company had such a good presentation and support for traditional photography at this biggest worldwide photofair.
They have started promoting film use and their films successfully on instagram, gaining lots of subscribers there every week.
They have just already re-introduced some reversal films in sheet film formats (4x5" and 8x10").
And they have just re-introduced new 3-packs of C200 and Superia 400 in North America.
They are also slowly increasing their local "Fujifilm Wonder Store" shops. Neither Kodak, nor Ilford nor Foma has that.
So there are significant signs of a positive change. The stronger the film revival becomes, the higher the chance for more activities from Fujifilm.
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Old 11-13-2018   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miha View Post
From the picture posted by Skiff - only 6 emulsions left, down from 15 since 2010, quite miserable:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/5042362476/
There is simply not enough demand to justify more.
In the last years Fujifilm was hit more severly by the decreasing demand than all the other manufacturers. For two reasons:
- Fujifilm had for years the by far biggest film portfolio of all producers, including lots of special niche market films like Superia 1600 and slide films - film types Kodak stopped producing long before
- Fujifilm was hit severely by all the Fujifilm haters in social media which said Fuji had to be boycotted.

Some manufacturers like Ilford experienced the market change first (around 2015/16). Some followed a bit later (Kodak).
And from what I have heard at Photokina this year from Fujifilm and some international distributors is that this year was the first year Fujifilm has experienced an increase in their sales, too (mainly in CN film). They reacted quite fast with the re-introduction of the 3-packs and the official statement at Photokina that they continue standard film production.

And:
Having 6 excellent films (5 of them being best in their class) is much much better than having no films at all.
And if I have a choice e.g. between 3 excellent films and 10 mediocre films I will always prefer the three excellent films.
Too much photographers are focussed on the sheer number of films on the market, and not on the quality.

I am very thankful that Fujifilm has saved reversal film! They have been the only company which has been so brave to continue the production of several reversal films in different formats, and also continued the production of E6 chemistry both for home users and professional labs.
Only because of Fujifilm's permanent support of the whole E6 infrastructure Kodak now has the chance to re-introduce Ektachrome.
If Fujifilm has had the same ignorant behaviour Kodak had in 2012, than reversal film would be dead today!
Therefore a big "thank you" to Fujifilm. They saved color reversal film!

I am convinced that in 5 years from now we will have more standard films from Fujifilm. They will not ignore the film revival in the long term.
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Old 11-13-2018   #28
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post

I am convinced that in 5 years from now we will have more standard films from Fujifilm. They will not ignore the film revival in the long term.

I'll gladly eat my hat if Reala, Acros, and Astia return.
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A Tweet about why Agfa and Fuji are getting out of the film business.
Old 11-13-2018   #29
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A Tweet about why Agfa and Fuji are getting out of the film business.

Would be cool if the success of instax and the continued interest in some level of 35mm film led to instant slide film being resurrected.
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Old 11-14-2018   #30
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I am convinced that in 5 years from now we will have more standard films from Fujifilm. They will not ignore the film revival in the long term.

I hope you're right, but a lot of your posting looks like white knighting for Fuji as you're a fan.

All we can do is look at the facts. Fuji has been culling film stocks over the past few years. They recently pulled Acros, leaving them in the unique position of being the only film manufacturer without a B&W stock.

Outside of the facts we have industry insiders stating the Fuji stopped making non-Instax film a while ago and we're just getting the remains from the freezer. On the other hand we have a vague statement from Fuji at Photokina about film - something that's not even mentioned on their website
http://www.fujifilm.com/news/n180911.html

I guess we'll see.
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Old 11-15-2018   #31
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Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
I hope you're right, but a lot of your posting looks like white knighting for Fuji as you're a fan.

All we can do is look at the facts. Fuji has been culling film stocks over the past few years. They recently pulled Acros, leaving them in the unique position of being the only film manufacturer without a B&W stock.

Outside of the facts we have industry insiders stating the Fuji stopped making non-Instax film a while ago and we're just getting the remains from the freezer. On the other hand we have a vague statement from Fuji at Photokina about film - something that's not even mentioned on their website
http://www.fujifilm.com/news/n180911.html

I guess we'll see.

Well noted. Fujifilm has discontinued a lot of films, despite making the claim that they are committed to the future of film. I expect more products from them to disappear in 2019.
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Old 11-15-2018   #32
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Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
I hope you're right, but a lot of your posting looks like white knighting for Fuji as you're a fan.
I am not a fan. I am using films from all major manufacturers.

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All we can do is look at the facts. Fuji has been culling film stocks over the past few years.
As has Kodak. In total Kodak has even discontinued more films in the last ten years. I don't critizise that, because the drop in demand was huge.

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They recently pulled Acros, leaving them in the unique position of being the only film manufacturer without a B&W stock.
The decision concerning Acros was made already last year. Just the announcement was this year. The problem with Acros was / is that some raw material is not available anymore.

We have first actions of Fujifilm supporting their recent statement:
- 3-packs are back
- reversal sheet film is back
- a clear statement on the biggest photo fair worldwide.
If you are changing your direction, you have to make first, small steps. Especially if you are such a big company like Fujifilm. They cannot be so fast and flexible as the much smaller Kodak, Ilford, Foma. They need time to change. We should be patient.

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Outside of the facts we have industry insiders stating the Fuji stopped making non-Instax film a while ago and we're just getting the remains from the freezer.
Which insiders? Please tell the names!
I have never heard that from any real insider. Just from same stupid film bloggers well known for telling lies. Not reliable sources at all!
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Old 11-15-2018   #33
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Outside of the facts we have industry insiders stating the Fuji stopped making non-Instax film a while ago and we're just getting the remains from the freezer.
This clearly shows that these people don't know what they are talking about. They don't have any knowledge of film manufacturing. Because:
Film manufacturers do not freeze film after production! None of them! After coating the master rolls are stored at around 8įC. Agfa Belgium has explained that in former times on their homepage. Simon Galley of Ilford has explained that on apug. The CEO of Adox has said the same, former FF employees, too. At Photokina former Agfa Germany engineers confirmed that. In the Book "Making Kodak Film" it is also described.

I have been at Photokina, too (we've had also a very nice meeting with several other rff members there).
I have visited the Fujifilm booth, too. I have also picked up that flyer with the Commitment to film.
Photokina is mainly a B2B fair. The big distributors are coming there. Companies that buy hundreds of thousands of rolls film per order. To them this statement has been now given at Photokina.
Can Fujifilm go behind that in the future? No, not really. They would "loose their face". In Japanese culture a real problem.
And the news at Photokina was that Fujifilm has big backorders = the demand is significantly surpassing the current supply so far this year. So probably the demand situation for Fujifilm has changed to the positive. In this context their official statement / commitment makes sense and seems to be an indicator that Fujifilm starts to slowly change its strategy.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 11-26-2018   #34
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I'll gladly eat my hat if Reala, Acros, and Astia return.
I wish you'd eat your hat and be quiet. You anti film trolling here, photrio, photo.net and DPReview with various User IDs like this one, Rattymouse, etc, is tiring. Would be nice if the mods here silenced you for once
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Old 12-03-2018   #35
Argentia1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
We have first actions of Fujifilm supporting their recent statement:
- 3-packs are back
- reversal sheet film is back
- a clear statement on the biggest photo fair worldwide.
If you are changing your direction, you have to make first, small steps. Especially if you are such a big company like Fujifilm. They cannot be so fast and flexible as the much smaller Kodak, Ilford, Foma. They need time to change. We should be patient.

+1.

Another indicator that Fujifilm is slowly and step-by-step changing direction to a stronger support of normal films (besides instax films) is that they just recently invested in an additional marketing for standard film by this new internet portal for film beginners:
https://www.ishootfujifilm.com/

Would you spend money for new marketing if you intend to stop production?
Certainly not.
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Old 12-03-2018   #36
Ste_S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argentia1 View Post
+1.

Another indicator that Fujifilm is slowly and step-by-step changing direction to a stronger support of normal films (besides instax films) is that they just recently invested in an additional marketing for standard film by this new internet portal for film beginners:
https://www.ishootfujifilm.com/

Would you spend money for new marketing if you intend to stop production?
Certainly not.
I think the true test for Fuji being serious about film production would be re-launching it's B&W range. Not a website done by it's North American arm.
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Old 12-03-2018   #37
Argentia1
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Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
I think the true test for Fuji being serious about film production would be re-launching it's B&W range. Not a website done by it's North American arm.
No, the first hard test is going on with the current film line for the next years. If demand for these films is increasing (that is our part as photographers!) then a re-introduction of products make sense.
Whether it makes sense then to go in the overcrowded and extremely competitive BW market........
Adox has just introduced its new HR-50 (excellent film by the way). Their CHS 100 II is scheduled for beginning of 2019. They are also working on further films and papers for the coming years.
Film Ferrania is currently working on BW emulsions, too.

At first step for re-introduction the much larger and much less competitive color film market is probably the better option. There is only one real competitor.
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Old 12-03-2018   #38
jawarden
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I have a soft spot for Fuji and I wish the best for them. It seems inconceivable that they have no black and white offerings at all after making so many great films, but here we are. I hope they re-enter the b&w marketplace before there is a talent drain in their company (something that I suspect has hampered Kodak for some time now).

It's a tough business for sure. I'd love to have Neopan 1600 back, but can a solid case be made for investing in it? It seems Kodak thought so and introduced P3200 to compete with Delta3200. Time will tell if they were right. (I love P3200 and use it regularly, but I'm just one data point.)
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Old 12-04-2018   #39
Eugen Mezei
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Which is the slide Fuji brings back in sheets?
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Old 12-05-2018   #40
Skiff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugen Mezei View Post
Which is the slide Fuji brings back in sheets?
Provia 100F in 8x10".
And Velvia 100 in 4x5" and 8x10".
Go back in this thread and have a look at my posting, it is no. 8 in this thread. Look at the attachment with Fujifilm's current commitment to standard film from Photokina this fall. There is the current film program including reversal sheet film.
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