Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > RFF News

RFF News News related to photography and rangefinderforum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

They are coming after us
Old 12-05-2017   #1
bushwick1234
Registered User
 
bushwick1234's Avatar
 
bushwick1234 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 294
They are coming after us

New Yorkers call for removal of MET painting that 'sexualizes' girl

https://nypost.com/2017/12/03/new-yo...xualizes-girl/
__________________
Kaniel M
"If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera." LH
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #2
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,591
Who is the "us"?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #3
dmr
Registered Abuser
 
dmr's Avatar
 
dmr is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Middle America
Posts: 4,521
This one made Huff Post today as well.

I immediately noticed what I think of as a very obvious symbolic inclusion in the work. I haven't seen anyone else comment on it.
__________________
My (NEW) Gallery
My Blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #4
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Earlier this year in Moscow they closed this american photog of nude teenage girls exhibition. Due to promoting of pedophilia.
Later this year, then we drove to NYC from red South West Ontario it was Moscow village in the States. So, it is close.
Russian speaking population is huge in NYC, BTW.

I don't know which side I'm taking. I'm not the one who is looking at naked teenage girls. I prefer my wife and in lingerie. For sure.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #5
BillBingham2
Registered User
 
BillBingham2's Avatar
 
BillBingham2 is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ames, Iowa, USA
Posts: 5,903
NYC has so many different venues that if you look long enough anyone can find something that they feel should be shut down.

Meh

B2 (;->
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #6
JP Owens
Registered User
 
JP Owens is offline
Join Date: Dec 2014
Age: 68
Posts: 358
The use of the word "sexualized" is ambiguous, and in the eye of the beholder. Do some people act badly toward "sexualized" teenage girls? Surely. But, most people don't.

This seems to be more about a moving cultural target than anything else.
__________________
_______

"Nothing exists beyond the edges of the frame."
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #7
Brooklynguy
Registered User
 
Brooklynguy is offline
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I'm not the one who is looking at naked teenage girls.
The painting is of what appears to be a young woman, age unknown, in an arguably "charged" pose, depending on one's point of view. There is no nudity whatsoever. Like other artworks, it causes the viewer to react/think based on the viewer's own experiences, feelings, biases, etc.

Maybe it's me, but it seems SJW gone wild again. Maybe we should also ban the Monet ballerina paintings, or Venus sculpture, since her age is unknown, and all other works that depict any young looking person in any manner whatsoever? Anyone else see the irony in all this?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #8
Highway 61
Revisited
 
Highway 61's Avatar
 
Highway 61 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynguy View Post
Maybe we should also ban the Monet ballerina paintings (...)
They are by Degas not Monet.
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #9
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 1,368
Do you think that if one venue makes a judgement to censor something, it automatically transmits to the whole world?
40 years ago you could walk into almost any public store and see magazines with nudity on display. Maybe not always in the front rack, but they were there. Not any more.
Does that mean nudity & porn is no longer available?
Don't worry, there will be only more art to see, suggestive & otherwise, good art & bad, not less.
__________________
Leica M2 / 7artisans 35-f2 / Canon 35-f2 ltm
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #10
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,591
" Balthus often depicted pubescent girls in erotic and voyeuristic poses. One of the most notorious works from his first exhibition in Paris was The Guitar Lesson (1934), which caused controversy due to its sadistic and sexually explicit imagery. It depicts a young girl arched on her back over the lap of her female teacher, whose hands are positioned on the girl as if to play her like a guitar: one hand near her exposed vagina, and the other hand grasping her hair. Other works from the same exhibition included The Street (1933), Cathy Dressing (1933) and Alice (1933)."

"Many of his paintings show young girls in an erotic context. Balthus insisted that his work was not erotic but that it recognized the discomforting facts of children's sexuality. In 2013, Balthus's paintings of adolescent girls were described by Roberta Smith in the New York Times as both "alluring and disturbing""

So Balthus felt discomforted by children's sexuality, and yet focused on his 'discomfort'.

Again, who are they coming for?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #11
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Well described, Huss. As soon as you put it here, it triggered my memory and I re-called seeing something at MET recently, which made me think - WTФ it is doing here?
I went by OP link and it is the picture, indeed. Kudos to NYT.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #12
creenus
Registered User
 
creenus is offline
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 154
It's the New York Post, not the New York Times, FWIW. Quite a different newspaper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Well described, Huss. As soon as you put it here, it triggered my memory and I re-called seeing something at MET recently, which made me think - WTФ it is doing here?
I went by OP link and it is the picture, indeed. Kudos to NYT.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #13
Highway 61
Revisited
 
Highway 61's Avatar
 
Highway 61 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Kudos to NYT.
This is the NY Post not the NYT. If you browse the article, you have a reproduction of Balthus' painting on the left and a photo of Kim Kardashian on the right. Look for what is vulgar and unproper there.
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #14
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
This is the NY Post not the NYT. If you browse the article, you have a reproduction of Balthus' painting on the left and a photo of Kim Kardashian on the right. Look for what is vulgar and unproper there.
One is a child, one is an adult.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #15
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by creenus View Post
It's the New York Post, not the New York Times, FWIW. Quite a different newspaper.
They are all Pravda to me.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #16
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
...photo of Kim Kardashian on the right. Look for what is vulgar and unproper there.
She is full grown if not slightly overgrown lady. As grown, heterosexual adult I would like to ensure you, here is nothing vulgar and unproper in her forms and actions. Some people like it inflated. It is starting with pumped toys in healthy childhood and then healthy adultery is also don't mind to play with inflatables. In some cultures skinny is not healthy...

But Huss is right again, no kids should be involved or exposed as adult play.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #17
Highway 61
Revisited
 
Highway 61's Avatar
 
Highway 61 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
One is a child, one is an adult.
One is a superb artistic work figuring a teen not a child, one is the perfect expression of [censored].
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #18
creenus
Registered User
 
creenus is offline
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 154
FWIW, here is a response to Balthus' art by the Countess Setsuko Klossowska de Rola, the second wife of Balthus:

"The world, however, does tend to stand in sweeping judgment. Is she offended by what is said of her husband?

"It's other people's opinion and they have a right to that stupid opinion," she replies, evenly. (If she's upset, it's masked: a personal No Drama.) Was she ever worried? "About what? Paedophilia? If it is not true, then what's wrong? Balthus totally has another vision.""

I think his subject matter is creepy, personally, but we're talking about the art world, not a Benetton ad. At least I am.

The New York Post, in my opinion as a former journalist, is a reactionary scandal rag of the lowest order. The New York Times it ain't.

Last edited by creenus : 12-05-2017 at 10:22. Reason: to err is human, to edit divine
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #19
Highway 61
Revisited
 
Highway 61's Avatar
 
Highway 61 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
But Huss is right again, no kids should be involved or exposed as adult play.
Sure. Then for instance you should immediatly write to the Musée du Louvre to ask them to remove "Les curieuses" by Fragonard. You know, that painting (1775 or 1780) displaying two little girls looking at people probably kissing each other or - who knows - doing something even more terrible.
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #20
BillBingham2
Registered User
 
BillBingham2's Avatar
 
BillBingham2 is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ames, Iowa, USA
Posts: 5,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
They are all Pravda to me.


B2 (;->
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #21
bushwick1234
Registered User
 
bushwick1234's Avatar
 
bushwick1234 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Who is the "us"?
Us=We The People.
__________________
Kaniel M
"If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera." LH
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #22
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
Sure. Then for instance you should immediatly write to the Musée du Louvre to ask them to remove "Les curieuses" by Fragonard. You know, that painting (1775 or 1780) displaying two little girls looking at people probably kissing each other or - who knows - doing something even more terrible.
You getting it wrong. If I call it will be about "Girl Making a Dog Dance on Her Bed". But don't get me wrong, not this one, but what one.
https://enfilade18thc.com/2015/06/03...tin-june-2015/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #23
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post


B2 (;->
Do you really think I give a crap who is who in NYC papers?
It is like me demanding from Americans to know the difference between Toronto Star and Toronto Sun.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #24
Highway 61
Revisited
 
Highway 61's Avatar
 
Highway 61 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,785
Just dress up a list, and write to the museums. "We The People" thinking of children the right way have been waiting for too long before someone took their responsabilities and ask for all those dangerous artworks to be hidden (permanently destroyed would for sure be better).

This is the Internet and there have been lots of stupid threads on this forum as on any forum (yet, at the end of the day, maybe a bit less here than elsewhere), but this one for sure gets the golden awards, all categories.

To end up here : I live way farer from NYC than you (on other side of the ocean actually) but most people I know around are aware of the differences between the NY Times and the NY Post, as well as the differences between the Washington Post and the Washington Times.
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #25
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,289
The Met responded with this:
Quote:
“Moments such as this provide an opportunity for conversation, and visual art is one of the most significant means we have for reflecting on both the past and the present.”
I don't see them giving much of a ship.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #26
filmtwit
Desperate but not serious
 
filmtwit's Avatar
 
filmtwit is offline
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: West Coast
Posts: 3,028
New. York. Post. . . .

I think that Public Enemy put it best . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DMo3uQpd40
__________________
Instgram
https://www.instagram.com/filmtwit/

The Flickr Stream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/filmtwit/

The Blog (Boring Sidney, Boring)
http://jeffthomasallen.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #27
valdas
Registered User
 
valdas is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,391
So Lolita by Nabokov will be the next target?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #28
bushwick1234
Registered User
 
bushwick1234's Avatar
 
bushwick1234 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Do you really think I give a crap who is who in NYC papers?
In reality doesn't matter who printed this news. Besides, NYT is not what it was and stood for in the past.
__________________
Kaniel M
"If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera." LH
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #29
bushwick1234
Registered User
 
bushwick1234's Avatar
 
bushwick1234 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by valdas View Post
So Lolita by Nabokov will be the next target?
That was precisely my concern...
__________________
Kaniel M
"If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera." LH
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #30
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushwick1234 View Post
That was precisely my concern...
What is my wife, mine and many other people concern I asked is as well. For how long this pedophile literature will be available?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #31
valdas
Registered User
 
valdas is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
What is my wife, mine and many other people concern I asked is as well. For how long this pedophile literature will be available?

... and Kubrick was a pervert to adapt it?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #32
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
Just dress up a list, and write to the museums. "We The People" thinking of children the right way have been waiting for too long before someone took their responsabilities and ask for all those dangerous artworks to be hidden (permanently destroyed would for sure be better).

This is the Internet and there have been lots of stupid threads on this forum as on any forum (yet, at the end of the day, maybe a bit less here than elsewhere), but this one for sure gets the golden awards, all categories.

To end up here : I live way farer from NYC than you (on other side of the ocean actually) but most people I know around are aware of the differences between the NY Times and the NY Post, as well as the differences between the Washington Post and the Washington Times.
It is my and other people freedom to question some art.

Then I was student at the last semester, it was me and leader of Komsomol invited for head of the university office. I was very well fit and passed smart ass test. Komsomol guy was very loyal and I guess they have other plans for him. They asked me, how many states in USA? I didn't know. They asked me what are the political parties in USA? I didn't know.
By now I have many people I know personally in USA and for years. Including Dan Wagner. Ex-TV person and activist now and then he was helping us to build free and independent from communists media in Russia. If I need to know something about USA I could simply call him, or my school friend and to my past and current colleagues in the broadcast industry. Then in USA, we would drink sometimes after work like animals and talk about life as it is. But not about news papers. They are all just history, not news in USSR time and now.

Then I was in Manhattan and waiting for kids to come, I have a talk with big cheese. He told me about life in NYC like no papers will ever tell you. It is how you could make people to talk to you, not how papers made to talk to you.

Keep on reading. I'll keep on meet and talk to those who are alive.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #33
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by valdas View Post
... and Kubrick was a pervert to adapt it?
Can't tell you. I read the original and in Russian. It could be like Jesus Christ Superstar and the Bible.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #34
valdas
Registered User
 
valdas is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Can't tell you. I read the original. It could be like Jesus Christ Superstar and the Bible.
And why did you read the “pedophile literature”? By the way, Lolita was originally written in English, Nabokov translated it to Russian more than 10 years later, so I am not sure what you consider original.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #35
Peter Jennings
Registered User
 
Peter Jennings's Avatar
 
Peter Jennings is offline
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Seoul
Posts: 578
Humans have (pure, questionable, dark, strange...) tendencies. It's better for those tendencies to be exposed and explored intellectually so that we can better understand them than it is to declare some of them off-limits. Art that disturbs is art that teaches - if one is open to being taught. Biologically speaking, it is perfectly natural for adult men to be attracted to pubescent girls. Culturally, it is totally unacceptable. This dichotomy is worth exploring intellectually.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #36
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by valdas View Post
And why did you read the “pedophile literature”?
I was teenager and it was one of the few book available for reading where I was at this time. I didn't know what sex is, never had sex. Was not into kissing at all. I was reading it and it feels strange. Why old dude is so strangely involved with kid like me?
It was in relatives house and I remember and I think I know who was making some strange notes in this book. Then I get older this person was strange to me....
I was very naive and not sexual at all. I was targeted by elder guys for sexual activities before this and have no clue. Then I was seventeen or eighteen guys called be gay and I have no idea what it is.
I guess, kids are more educated now. But kids are naive. It is not OK to show them what it is OK to pose sexually, nor it is OK to show lust for kid in the book or in the movie. At least it should be warning.

Recently we have interview with local lawyer who helps pedophiles. He is asking to change pedophilia to sex orientation in Canada. And then he openly told what fifteen years old girl involved with sexting with pedophile is evil woman and pedophile is the victim.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #37
valdas
Registered User
 
valdas is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I was teenager and it was one of the few book available for reading where I was at this time. I didn't know what sex is, never had sex. Was not into kissing at all. I was reading it and it feels strange. Why old dude is so strangely involved with kid like me?
It was in relatives house and I remember and I think I know who was making some strange notes in this book. Then I get older this person was strange to me....
I was very naive and not sexual at all. I was targeted by elder guys for sexual activities before this and have no clue. Then I was seventeen or eighteen guys called be gay and I have no idea what it is.
I guess, kids are more educated now. But kids are naive. It is not OK to show them what it is OK to pose sexually, nor it is OK to show lust for kid in the book or in the movie. At least it should be warning.

Recently we have interview with local lawyer who helps pedophiles. He is asking to change pedophilia to sex orientation in Canada. And then he openly told what fifteen years old girl involved with sexting with pedophile is evil woman and pedophile is the victim.
I am sorry for bad experiences you had, but believev me, it is not the book or painting that makes the people who/what they are.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #38
Brooklynguy
Registered User
 
Brooklynguy is offline
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
They are by Degas not Monet.
Thank you for the correction.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #39
peterm1
Registered User
 
peterm1's Avatar
 
peterm1 is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,494
Yes, you are right they are coming for us. It is let's bash a random man weak amongst the new wave of feminists.

In fact the art in question is a 1938 work by French artist Balthus (I wonder why no one has found it offensive till now - oh I know we are undergoing a wave of self induced insanity, that's why). A post on the Twitter account of the woman who started the petition reads "When I heard that Hugh Hefner died I wished I believed in hell". (I am not a fan of his and never have been, but I would not wish to see him in hell). Another post,about some art installation reads "The athletes are mere decoration, while the freaks and geeks take center stage as the true heroes.” Yep, freaks and geeks that is them - must support freaks and geeks above all else. Yet another post is in support of "Sustainability and Ethics in Fashion". (Less intolerant but predictably trendoid). So she is wearing her politics on her shirt sleeve for all to see. Yes she is yet another bloody trendoid - intolerant, self righteous and insufferable.

Oh Puke! I just loathe these prats who are against everything that its trendy to be against and are for everything that others in their cultural echo chamber are for - they do not even seem to think that other people are entitled to think differently. But, people say, she cares so deeply about this issue. Well, yes that's true - right up to the time it becomes fashionable to start petitioning to save seal puppies or something which is when she forgets about the painting and starts bothering people about other "issues" . And there is always another issue.

The reality is that the painting is slightly suggestive but not one I would regard as promoting pedophilia - something I would be ardently opposed to if it were. It does suggest perhaps, a young woman beginning to feel her pubescent sexuality. And it is nothing more or less than anything of this sort painted over the centuries by any of the great masters. Or for that matter anything else painted by any other artist through the ages. But the artist is a male to boot and that is really enough get for him in this new age of "tolerance". What is more he painted 11 paintings of this young woman - Burn them all!!! Then dig him up and burn him. (In fact some of his other paintings are somewhat more offensive than this one and I strongly suspect this is this painting's real offence - guilt by association).

I know, now we have started taking down art works lets finish by burning books. That's a good idea. A bit Hitlerian, but never mind. And while we are about it, I think the painting shown below by Botticelli is sexualizing young women. Lets start a petition to have it burned too. Maybe it is regarded as one of the great works of Western Civilization. Never mind lets tear that down too in our political zeal. Honest to God hasn't anyone ever heard of Mao's Cultural Revolution and the Red Guards and the horrors they perpetrated?

Bloody vandals!

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-05-2017   #40
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by valdas View Post
I am sorry for bad experiences you had, but believev me, it is not the book or painting that makes the people who/what they are.
Sorry, but who you are to believe? What do you know from I don't know?

I expirienced pedohilia in USSR, our dather was approached once here on the street, another time by same kind in the taxi. Police is doing nothing about it. We have two pedophile teachers in small town for two years n the row.
We have person responsible for sex education program at schools in Ontario, pictured sitting beside current Canada PM and Ontario PM. He was leader of pedofile ring and teaching how to force kids to sex.

And some like you are telling me what is it OK to show pedofilia motivated things on public. Why, if this is falling on people in real life and here is no help...
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:44.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.