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Nikon Historical Society -- hosted by the founding member Bob Rotoloni and members of the society. The NHS, based the US, has a worldwide membership. Our "Nikon Journal," published four times a year, concentrates on the history of Japanese photo equipment from the perspective of the Nikon Camera Company. The Nikon Journal often includes Nikon information not published anywhere else in the world. This forum provides an opportunity for conversation between collectors and users of classic film Nikons. See forum “stickies” for more information about the Society. If you are a serious Nikon Collector, you MUST be a NHS member. Join at http://www.nikonhistoricalsociety.com/!

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How EVFs Work
Old 07-28-2017   #41
willie_901
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How EVFs Work

  1. convert light to electrical charge; convert electrical charge to DV voltages for all photo-diode sites used for EVF display
  2. decide if and how much to amplify those DC signals
  3. digitize all these signals and store the data
  4. demoasic the data; render it using in-camera menu settings
  5. send the data to the EVF

This takes time. This creates lag. Some cameras' delays are much shorter than others.

Often the delay between what happens in the scene and what is displayed on the EVF is inconsequential. The ability to efficiently record bursts of photographs sometimes eliminates the delay's disadvantage.

No camera's EVF is as fast as an OVF.
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Old 07-28-2017   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
Well it looks like the EVF was an incorrect rumor. What I've seen posted today is that the D850 will be a standard DSLR with OVF, no Hybrid VF or EVF.

Best,
-Tim
What a shame. That was the only compelling feature, everything else was evolutionary.

Nikon is going to have to innovate to survive. For years I've recommended that people not buy their point and shoot cameras, because most other makers seem to invest in those models, adding features and performance, and Nikon has always seemed very worried about cannibalizing their higher-end models. This sort of behavior is not at all dissimilar to Kodak in they heyday ignoring digital. Sony has recently come out with an amazing mirrorless camera. Nikon has to be willing to take some risks, and from the looks of things, the D850 is just an incremental improvement in the mold of its predecessors, however impressive its specifications.
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Old 07-28-2017   #43
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Quote:
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Well it looks like the EVF was an incorrect rumor. What I've seen posted today is that the D850 will be a standard DSLR with OVF, no Hybrid VF or EVF.

Best,
-Tim
It sounded rather black magic. I would have expected the patent watchers to have noticed something like that being patented and shouted from the roof tops.

B2 (;->
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Old 07-28-2017   #44
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I sold my nikon DSLR and bought a sony alpha mirrorless, for me a DSLR is too big and useless for what i need it for. A film rangefinder for b&w and my little sony for color and and video is all i need.
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Old 07-28-2017   #45
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No EVF .... so t's just another DSLR then!

As pointed out this is just evolution ... "hitting it out of the park" will require innovation!

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Old 07-28-2017   #46
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I'm not sure if I am happy or sad that it has no EVF. Seeing every EVF I have used gives me a headache.

Nikon used to do wacky stuff like limited edition S3 and SPs. Decades after they had gone out of production.
A re-released F2 or F3 would be all sorts of awesome.
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Old 07-28-2017   #47
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I'm not sure if I am happy or sad that it has no EVF. Seeing every EVF I have used gives me a headache.

Nikon used to do wacky stuff like limited edition S3 and SPs. Decades after they had gone out of production.
A re-released F2 or F3 would be all sorts of awesome.
A rereleased F I could go for. As long as its all mechanical without a meter.
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Old 07-28-2017   #48
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I think Nikon did a nice job with the EVF on the Nikon 1 V2. Have used that for hours at a time and had not issues with the EVF. But I'm not seeing the advantage of an EVF on a DSLR. Nikon should just make a full frame mirrorless (with a Nikon F mount to use all the old lenses) if they want to go the EVF route.

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Old 07-28-2017   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
I think Nikon did a nice job with the EVF on the Nikon 1 V2. Have used that for hours at a time and had not issues with the EVF. But I'm not seeing the advantage of an EVF on a DSLR. Nikon should just make a full frame mirrorless (with a Nikon F mount to use all the old lenses) if they want to go the EVF route.

Best,
-Tim

That's probably a better idea I agree. Especially with their pro camera being seriously challenged with the likes of the A9R.
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Old 07-28-2017   #50
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A rereleased F I could go for. As long as its all mechanical without a meter.
Expect it to cost $3,495 and they would still lose money with every camera sold. Not the best thing to do for a company experiencing financial difficulties.
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Old 07-28-2017   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
I think Nikon did a nice job with the EVF on the Nikon 1 V2. Have used that for hours at a time and had not issues with the EVF. But I'm not seeing the advantage of an EVF on a DSLR. Nikon should just make a full frame mirrorless (with a Nikon F mount to use all the old lenses) if they want to go the EVF route.

Best,
-Tim
Although I find Sony SLTs and the Pentax K-01 to be rather ridiculous, I'd have to agree with you - a smallish full frame camera would be nice, even it means it has to be achieved with an EVF.

Would be extra nice if they release some pancake lenses (like the excellent Canon 40/2.8) to go with it.
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Old 07-28-2017   #52
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I bet a redux F, F2, F3 would cost a pile of money.

A digital back for said cameras would sell thousands maybe tens of thousands of copies I bet. That would be innovation and digital fusion!
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Old 07-28-2017   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootar401 View Post
A rereleased F I could go for. As long as its all mechanical without a meter.
I'd prefer an MD style Nikon.
A digital F with no screen, no menus, pared back simple digital awesomeness. Manual focus only as well, good focus screen and a base set of new MF primes like the Voigtlanders; 2/24mm, 1.4/50mm, 2/85mm. Would be super awesomeness and would be something even I'd jump on.
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Old 07-28-2017   #54
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oh well,
the other rumor is that the D850 will have a Sony FE lens mount.....

maybe not
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Old 07-28-2017   #55
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I bet a redux F, F2, F3 would cost a pile of money.

A digital back for said cameras would sell thousands maybe tens of thousands of copies I bet. That would be innovation and digital fusion!
In a perfect world...but they make their ¥ selling lenses. And even here, Sigma has outfoxed them. Nikon is a lumbering giant proverbially Waiting for Godot...

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Originally Posted by michaelwj View Post
I'd prefer an MD style Nikon.
A digital F with no screen, no menus, pared back simple digital awesomeness. Manual focus only as well, good focus screen and a base set of new MF primes like the Voigtlanders; 2/24mm, 1.4/50mm, 2/85mm. Would be super awesomeness and would be something even I'd jump on.
Shame of it is that the Dƒ should have been the perfect platform to do so and they even went so far as making pre-AI lenses compatible.
Instead, it was a fake-out with a focus screen out of the corporate bin and a nothing more than a styling exercise.
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Old 07-28-2017   #56
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...and the D850 is a $3500 consumer camera. Can anyone say 'grifters'? I understand now why they are leaking so far in advance...they are gauging whether or not they will be able to get away with the BS yet again.

I paid 1600 for my Df and kit lens with 8000 on the clock...at that price point it is/was a homerun.
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Old 07-28-2017   #57
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...and the D850 is a $3500 consumer camera. Can anyone say 'grifters'? I understand now why they are leaking so far in advance...they are gauging whether or not they will be able to get away with the BS yet again.

I paid 1600 for my Df and kit lens with 8000 on the clock...at that price point it is/was a homerun.
Less grifters than a company groping for a its future purpose.
Instead of seeing the curtain falling on 1+ kg pentaprism cameras, they double-down on the dinosaur.

Nikon rumors https://nikonrumors.com/2017/07/28/n...x/#more-114300 now reports that the 850's NOT going to have a hybrid EVF. Same old VF but faster-than-8fps for all the sports I'll never shoot.

Brilliant and inspired way to celebrate their 100th anniversary.
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Old 07-28-2017   #58
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I find Nikon Rumors to be generally more reliable than other sites. They (or he, Peter) never reported the "hybrid viewfinder" hype in the first place.

I see no need to get upset on something completely bogus. There are places on the internet where dozens of these "specs" were invented daily...use common sense.

Again, I still believe even if they managed to make it hybrid, putting the EVF into the already bulky DSLR with full mirror box would bring little gain. Just think it over...

It also makes sense for Nikon putting the D5/D500 AF and all the cutting edge witchcraft into a camera which is supposed to be "slow". Less hassle on R&D. Or would people rather stay with the now 10-year-old MultiCAM-3500 module?

BTW the Canon 5D Mark IV cost $3,499 when new, the 5Ds $3,699, and the Nikon Df $2,749. I mean, 4 years into the Df's life cycle now I could go to Japan and grab a pristine one for around $1,350, but what's the point comparing used to new price? It's like when Lomography released the Jupiter 3+ people would complain hey my half a century old shimmed J-3 is much cheaper, or when Fujifilm had the GF670 out and some whined that the Mamiya 7s they got used cost less - forgetting those retailed for $3,500+ new not very long ago.
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Old 07-28-2017   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
I would have expected the patent watchers to have noticed something like that being patented and shouted from the roof tops.
Nikon has a patent on it. Theoria Apophasis who speculated at first about the EVF, pointed to a Nikon patent from 2013 to explain it. Also funny that folks lend more credibility to a rumour over reasoned speculation even if both have an equal chance of being wrong.
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Old 07-28-2017   #60
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But I'm not seeing the advantage of an EVF on a DSLR.
The advantages are: 1. video 2. video 3. improved focusing of fast lenses in low light 4. video.
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Old 07-29-2017   #61
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The advantages are: 1. video 2. video 3. improved focusing of fast lenses in low light 4. video.
Diminishing few for whom these attributes merit the upgrade from the D810.

As a one-time owner of 14 AIS lenses, one of my sore points is that Nikon took some pride in maintaining backward compatibility for MF lenses (Zeiss thus included) and then left no way to quickly, effectively and reliably focus them without Live View.
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Old 07-29-2017   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarama View Post
I paid 1600 for my Df and kit lens with 8000 on the clock...at that price point it is/was a homerun.
But you paid that years after it was released... it was $3000 new as well.
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Old 07-29-2017   #63
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So, you think the thread title is a bit over the top?
hmmmm......probably not according to my Nikon spymaster.

The Nikon D850 is not just a new Nikon,
its a new class of DSLR,
a DSLR - EVF hybrid!

You will be able to switch quickly from SLR to EVF for all advantages of both!

Silent shutter, high speed shutter, focus peaking - not a problem with EVF!

Better daylight viewing and focusing - not a problem with DSLR.

Expect 4K video and 42MP sensor.

With the D850 Nikon leapfrogs over all the Canon, Sony, Fuji, Olympus competition,
once again putting Nikon at the top.
Since the hybrid optical/EVF viewfinder rumor has proven false, I guess the conclusion is that Nikon will not hit it out of the park or save the company with the D850. I guess the question is will the D850 even offer a sufficient number of improvements over the D810 that anyone will feel the need to upgrade.
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Old 07-29-2017   #64
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But you paid that years after it was released... it was $3000 new as well.
The DF STILL is $3000 new!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...mera_with.html

So I'm not sure what the point of his post was - that used cameras are cheaper than new cameras?
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Old 07-29-2017   #65
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The DF STILL is $3000 new!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...mera_with.html

So I'm not sure what the point of his post was - that used cameras are cheaper than new cameras?
Oh yeah, I know... but I don't think many buy it new these days right?
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Old 07-29-2017   #66
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It's time to change the title of this thread to "nothing to see here folks, move along, move along."

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Old 07-29-2017   #67
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Pop Up flash has been off Pro models for years.

I wish Nikon well, because as a Canon user, Canon really needs someone to force them to innovate in recent times.

As an SLR user for the majoity of my work, often in low to very low light, I haven't come across a situation where the viewfinder doesn't cut it, so I'm not sure what the benefit is (but then again, I don't have the aversion to AF that some seem to).

I salute their steps into video, especially since Canon still chooses to lock out functions to push people to their Cinema line of cameras, whether the 4k capability is enough to overcome Canon's grip on SLR filmmaking remains to be seen, either way it'll hopefully push Canon to up their game.
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Old 07-29-2017   #68
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Ricoh GR still out there and has a loyal, albeit small, following.
Not obsolete as its simplicity is its greatest virtue.
Agreed, not remotely obsolete.

Their problem was they went up against a company who's had this exact camera figured out, and completely nailed for 20 years now.
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Old 07-29-2017   #69
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Although I find Sony SLTs and the Pentax K-01 to be rather ridiculous, I'd have to agree with you - a smallish full frame camera would be nice, even it means it has to be achieved with an EVF.

Would be extra nice if they release some pancake lenses (like the excellent Canon 40/2.8) to go with it.
Just curious, what's ridiculous about them?
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Old 07-29-2017   #70
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I was referencing this (which I agree with being priced at 3 grand). At 1600 though the camera is a deal. The D850 is more of the same old song and dance in the consumer line. How many teething problems will it have? How many Nikon users will jump ship when Nikon refuses to acknowledge those problems? Umm...their recent track record is not the greatest. Finally, imo, I guess they haven't learned much. Dont get me wrong I like Nikon stuff in general but lately I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james.liam View Post
Shame of it is that the Dƒ should have been the perfect platform to do so and they even went so far as making pre-AI lenses compatible.
Instead, it was a fake-out with a focus screen out of the corporate bin and a nothing more than a styling exercise.
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Old 07-29-2017   #71
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...and the D850 is a $3500 consumer camera.
consumer camera ? really ? I would say it's professional camera and will most likely be on the list of cameras that is required for joining, and maintaining NPS status. The more consumer oriented D750 may not be professional but I guarantee you will see many photojournalists using this camera.
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Old 07-29-2017   #72
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So this was all just 'fake news' then? lol
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Old 07-30-2017   #73
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Quote:
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...
As a one-time owner of 14 AIS lenses, one of my sore points is that Nikon took some pride in maintaining backward compatibility for MF lenses (Zeiss thus included) and then left no way to quickly, effectively and reliably focus them without Live View.
Amen!






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maybe so, maybe not
Old 07-30-2017   #74
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maybe so, maybe not

-------------------------

it ain't over until the D850 is introduced
while Nikon Rumors says there is no hybrid finder
others are not so sure

DPReview

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SonyAlphaRumors

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PhotographyLife

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Old 07-30-2017   #75
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I hope they do ... Canon probably hopes they don't!
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Old 07-30-2017   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
-------------------------

it ain't over until the D850 is introduced
while Nikon Rumors says there is no hybrid finder
others are not so sure

DPReview

DIYPhotography

SonyAlphaRumors

Flickr

PhotographyLife

UberGizmo

Time will tell
At any rate I would think this deal has given them a clear picture of what folks would salivate over. Whether or not they see it and deliver is another matter. Sure would not like to see the company go down.
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Old 07-30-2017   #77
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Remember when all those rumour sites suggested the DF would be a really cool manual camera with a real focusing screen and a digital sensor? And then it ended up being a fatter D600 with D4 sensor and plastic dials?

I wouldn't pay much attention to them until Nikon gives us the actual thing.
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Old 07-30-2017   #78
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If the d850 is just a regular optical finder DSLR it's going to be a huge letdown. Nikon needs the kind of innovation that the evf/ovf would bring.

If you look at the leaked pics though, it definitely looks like a hybrid finder - the hump is bigger and longer, there's an unknown switch/button above the diopter, and there are holes in the rear eyepiece that look like eye sensors...

I still think it'll have a hybrid finder personally.
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Old 07-30-2017   #79
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If it doesn't have the EVF and is just another DSLR update we'll be disappointed naturally but I'm seriously beginning to wonder what is the problem with Nikon and Canon? Their reluctance to innovate is astounding ... they just keep hammering out the same old same old while companies like Fujifilm, Ricoh/Pentax, Olympus, Sony etc explore different parts of the market where the camera phone hasn't quite yet managed to exterminate real photography.
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Old 07-30-2017   #80
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The thing is that all the tens of thousands that have the 600, 700 and 800 series will buy into the 850.
Nikon is Nikon, and it won't change.
Thousands of wedding togs and enthusiasts will buy it and Nikon is happy again.
......and on and on it goes.
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