My first Leica
Old 10-12-2011   #1
jhthomasii
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My first Leica

so, i have been shooting rangefinders for a few months now and i find it much easier than anything else. i have a canonet ql17, xa and an oly 35 rd. a couple of weeks ago, i was at a shop and got my hands on an m3. needless to say, i was done for after that. i have since decided to get a Leica but im just not sure which one.

i live in austin and there arent any at the local shop and i dont know anyone i could borrow one from so i cant try out any other models. im pretty sure i want to shoot a 35mm lens (probably the 35/1.4 voigtlander from CQ) and dont want to have to use an external VF. does that rule out the m3 or can it be used without the framelines?

are the advantages of the m6 over the m2/m4 worth the extra money? the meter would be nice but i can get by without it. i like the simplicity of the m2 but the m4's easier loading and rewind lever seem like they would be worth the slightly higher cost.

im sure im missing a lot of stuff here. any advice would be much appreciated.
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Old 10-12-2011   #2
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Not missing much. Just decide for yourself. Personally I would stay away from M3 if you want to use the 35mm lens. M4-P is very sweet, or M6.
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Old 10-12-2011   #3
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I can't say that I've had any real experience with any Leicas, but I know that I've always lusted after the M6...
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Old 10-12-2011   #4
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Check out the Classifieds here on the forum for a used M.
M2 is a great camera. M4 is just a bit more money used, but a little more easy to load. M6 is great for the meter unless you don't need one. The extra frame-lines can be an eye sore for some. I am by far not as worthy of giving advise as a lot of the shooters on this forum, but those are the quick obvious points to me. http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm also points out the good and bad of the M camera's.
The finders info here - http://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm
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Old 10-12-2011   #5
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Plenty of M6's, M4's and M3's on B&H and Adorama. I prefer a meter and went with a M6. Works great and got it for around $1500. Great all around camera. Go for the .72 finder on the 6 as it can cover more lens options if you go that route.
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Old 10-12-2011   #6
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who needs more lenses? :P

stick with the m3 and just use a 35mm lens, you will get used to the framing. I believe the finder (if you hid the framelines) is close to 37mm anyway! you could always try out a 35mm finder attachment while you get used to it. once you know, it's easy. and you get the nice finder of the m3 to work with.

put it this way - you aren't missing much by getting an m2 or m4. (you can add to the m3 to get quicker rewind with CQ rewind lever, and a quick load kit if you find one). enjoy it, it's a great camera
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Old 10-12-2011   #7
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. . . . . KEH also has a number of used Leica M's for sale and they now offer a six month warranty on their used cameras.

Good luck with your decision.
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Old 10-12-2011   #8
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i found a black m6 for $1000 in ex+ condition. the ad just says it has those paint bubbles on the top plate but that doesnt matter to me. im waiting for the seller to send me some pictures.
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Old 10-12-2011   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seakayaker1 View Post
. . . . . KEH also has a number of used Leica M's for sale and they now offer a six month warranty on their used cameras.

Good luck with your decision.
another thing i have been meaning to ask someone. if i am interested in an bgn item from keh, will they be able to tell me why its bgn if i call them? some of the listing online say whats wrong but some dont. i assume a lot of them are just cosmetic though.
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Old 10-12-2011   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhthomasii View Post
another thing i have been meaning to ask someone. if i am interested in an bgn item from keh, will they be able to tell me why its bgn if i call them? some of the listing online say whats wrong but some dont. i assume a lot of them are just cosmetic though.
I have bought a few lenses from KEH, I believe all of them were rated EX and they all fit the description. I was happy with the transactions. I did not call and speak with anyone at KEH prior to the purchase.

If you do call, please share your experience.

Thanks.
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Old 10-12-2011   #11
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I bought a bgn M2 from KEH several years ago. The camera arrived in perfect working order, rf aligned, vf bright, shutter speeds on. The chrome top plate was in excellent condition, maybe a few rub marks on the base plate. There were some small pieces of vulcanite missing, which is probably why keh graded it bgn. The price was $525. Best camera investment I ever made. I've since had it recovered and CLA'd by Youxin Ye. I recently bought, on a whim, a bgn grade Leica IIF red dial from Keh. Arrived in great condition and perfect working order. So I highly recommend keh.

I also highly recommend the M2, partcularly if you prefer a 35 lens. The vf framelines are uncluttered. It is not hard to load. And the price of a good user model is far less than you will pay for an M6 or even an M4. Since you say you don't need a built in meter, the M2 meets all your criteria, and is a gorgeous camera to boot.
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Old 10-12-2011   #12
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RFF is about the best place to buy a Leica. You want an M2 or M4 to avoid an external finder. These are both incredible cameras if the condition is good - you won't regret.
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Old 10-12-2011   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingley View Post
I also highly recommend the M2, partcularly if you prefer a 35 lens. The vf framelines are uncluttered. It is not hard to load. And the price of a good user model is far less than you will pay for an M6 or even an M4. Since you say you don't need a built in meter, the M2 meets all your criteria, and is a gorgeous camera to boot.
Quote:
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RFF is about the best place to buy a Leica. You want an M2 or M4 top avoid an external finder. These are both incredible cameras if the condition is good - you won't regret.
Sounds like the m2 will be the best for me. now i just have to find a good one and sell some cameras, most of all my gf-1.
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Old 10-12-2011   #14
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M4-2 (above SN # 150xxxx) / M4-P without meter or M6 if you want to have a meter.
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Old 10-12-2011   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhthomasii View Post
another thing i have been meaning to ask someone. if i am interested in an bgn item from keh, will they be able to tell me why its bgn if i call them? some of the listing online say whats wrong but some dont. i assume a lot of them are just cosmetic though.
I just got my BGN rating m4-2 in the mail from them today and it is practically flawless i would rate it EX personally. When i asked the seller at KEH they couldnt tell me the exact condition because he said he didnt actually have it with him in the warehouse or what ever it is. Anyways im sure you would be very happy with a bgn off of KEH.
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Old 10-12-2011   #16
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keh has a bgn m2 with the button rewind for 665. im going to call tomorrow and ask about it.
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Old 10-12-2011   #17
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M4 opinion: I've owned the M4-P and the M4 (Wetzlar German-made). The M4-P is a decent camera, but it's not in the same league as the M4 Wetzlar. Of course one pays dearly for the M4 as with all the most desirable from Leica! From what I know, my choice would be either a German M4 or an M2. I can't say too much about the M4-2, I believe it was made in Canada - probably pretty good.
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Old 10-13-2011   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhthomasii View Post
another thing i have been meaning to ask someone. if i am interested in an bgn item from keh, will they be able to tell me why its bgn if i call them? some of the listing online say whats wrong but some dont. i assume a lot of them are just cosmetic though.
I have bought many, many things from Keh.. most of them in "Bargain" condition, that turned out to be just fine.. Unless you want something completely flawless, I wouldn't worry about buying "BGN".. I have also bought several things in "UG" condition for dirt cheap that turned out to be nearly flawless (only one thing I've bought in UG condition was actually beat up)

Good luck with whatever M you decide on!
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Old 10-13-2011   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosta_g View Post
who needs more lenses? :P
...

put it this way - you aren't missing much by getting an m2 or m4. (you can add to the m3 to get quicker rewind with CQ rewind lever, and a quick load kit if you find one). enjoy it, it's a great camera
Agree that you only need one lens

But, a complete opposite *personal* take on M3. After reading so many people praising it, I finally got one (plus a DR Summicron and a 135mm Hektor, in a local 'fire' sale). Had it serviced, and tried it.

Put it this way, it just made me like my humble M4-P (and 35mm lens) more. It's a very underwhelming experience (considering my hype-elevated expectation) from loading (slower, awkward), shooting (I kept backing up to get the framing that I like), everything.

At some point I actually wondered, have someone played a cruel joke on me?? Needless to say, I have no trouble at all passing that camera on.

So unless you *really* love 50mm focal length, I'd save some bucks and get an M4-P. An M4 has nicer film advance and rewind, but expensive and you can't get the black version unless you are prepared to pay some ridiculous amount.
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Old 10-13-2011   #20
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i dont really want to spend as much as a good m4-p will cost.

i called keh today and they said that items marked bgn are graded so because of cosmetic problems only. they said if something has mechanical problems, they are labeled as-is or the problem is listed in the items description.
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Old 10-13-2011   #21
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The M4-P may go for a bit more than the M4-2. The M2 is probably in par with the M4-P in terms of price. The criteria is relatively easy: if you're a fan of the 50mm focal length, nothing beats a good M3. If you like to shoot wider than 50, almost anything from the M2 on will do.

Then, if you must use a built-in meter, go for the M6 and following cameras. If you don't mind using sunny-16, then your choices are wider...

Consider the M4-2 in your choices. Only "disadvantage": it does not have framelines for a 28mm FOV.

Best of luck shopping!
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Old 10-13-2011   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Murphy View Post
M4 opinion: I've owned the M4-P and the M4 (Wetzlar German-made). The M4-P is a decent camera, but it's not in the same league as the M4 Wetzlar. Of course one pays dearly for the M4 as with all the most desirable from Leica! From what I know, my choice would be either a German M4 or an M2. I can't say too much about the M4-2, I believe it was made in Canada - probably pretty good.

Good advice from Dave. For my first Leica it would be an M2, M4 and then M6 in order of cost. If you can afford it just reverse the order!
For b&w you don't need a meter but for colour it helps. I have an MR on my M2 and lightmeter on the iphone for a quick check on my own guess.
M2's and M4's are by far the nicest put together however an M6 with a meter and later rangefinder etc would be my best advice. I've never got on with M3's.
Tactile wise it's the M4, last of the Wetzlar cameras and just feels a bit special. IMHO
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Old 10-13-2011   #23
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This one is shot with my first Leica, an M3 in 1979.

Leica M3, Summicron 50mm f/2, TriX.

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Old 10-13-2011   #24
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A bad Leica (as long as it works) is better than a good __________ [fill in hysterically overpraised Olympus, Canon, Nikon, etc. here]

"Few if any cameras attract more controversy than Leicas. At one extreme, you have the devotees who maintain that they are are the finest cameras in the world, close to perfection, and so forth. In their eyes, Leica can do no wrong: they would not consider any other camera. At the other extreme you have those who hate them and their owners. The haters dismiss the cameras as overpriced, outdated and unreliable, and their owners as mindless snobs with more money than sense, who are invariably rotten photographers. Is either party right? . . . Of course, neither the uncritical Leicaphile nor the equally uncritical Leicaphobe can expect many people to agree with them. Fortunately there is a middle ground. It is this: if a Leica suits the way you work, it is a very nice camera. If it doesn't, it's a waste of money. Of course, you can say this about pretty much any other camera ever made " From http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subsc...icaphilia.html

It doesn't much matter which Leica you choose, as long as a Leica suits you. Or indeed, as long as it doesn't They suit some, but not others. Unless you are unusually self-analytical or self-aware, the best route is to try it and see.

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Old 10-13-2011   #25
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Go M6. I've had the M2 and do not regret switching over. You will probably end up shuffling through a few Leicas before you settle on a model, so you might as well save the time and effort and just get the one you really want to begin with.
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Old 10-13-2011   #26
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Quote:
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Go M6. I've had the M2 and do not regret switching over. You will probably end up shuffling through a few Leicas before you settle on a model, so you might as well save the time and effort and just get the one you really want to begin with.
Settle on a model? give over! Truth be told, if you find you like Leica's you'll end up with a few as most of the members here have.
I personally think M6's are the best all rounders however I like taking the M2 out for a spin once in a while. A Wetzlar M4 in BP with a meter would be my ultimate. Alas it's never been made so one has to have a few different models to switch between. There isn't a bad one so whatever you end up with will be a nice RF experience.
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Old 10-13-2011   #27
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Have both an M2 and an M6, both stand at their own ground.
If you can find a nice M2 sample grab it and never look back!
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Old 10-13-2011   #28
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I tried an M6 and an M3 before I bought my first Leica. I ended up getting an MP with the .85 because I wanted a new M3 with a meter. I'm a 50mm shooter but I have been dating around the CV 35mm FL for the past year and a half. I started with the 2.5 and worked my way up to the 1.2. In the process I bought an M2 as a "back-up". I could never get used to the .72 VF because I like to shot with both eyes open. Interestingly I got bored with the old film loading but don't mind the old rewind.

You'll find the right one for you eventually but I would say to go with your gut. Good thing about used leicas are that you can almost always get your money back out easily.
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Old 10-15-2011   #29
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is there a reason why no one suggests the m5?
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Old 10-15-2011   #30
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned a 35 with goggles for the M3.
It gives the best magnification and the optics use the entire VF frame.
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Old 10-15-2011   #31
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I have a M2 and a M4-P.

Both great cameras, but I prefer the M2.
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I say, "Try 'em all before you buy."
Old 10-15-2011   #32
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I say, "Try 'em all before you buy."

Here is another suggestion....

A. Purchase a used VC Bessa R2A or equivalent. Cheaper price initially, meter, etc. and put you money in better glass.

B. Try an Nikon rangefinder (heresy!)...the system never really intrigued me until I got a bargain Nikon S....the 50mm f1.4 is incredible. I have to use auxillary viewfinders (I wear glasses.) But, I love the one handed focusing with the rotating wheel. An S2 or MP are really cool. The MP has 6 frame lines in the viewfinder for use...amazing.

C. Get an M2 - its a classic, it has internal 35mm frame lines, and its just cool!

D. Keep your GF-1 and get one of the M lens adapters and you have the best of both worlds.

Have fun!

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Old 10-17-2011   #33
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I first had a M6 but I sold it ad brought two mint m3 instead. One for the day and one for the night with different iso film when I go travel. I'm a 50mm shooter and I like how solid the m3 feel on my hand compare to the m6. And the m3 vf is the best if you like to shoot 50mm.
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Old 10-17-2011   #34
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Go with the best Leica you can find for the right price - worry less about the specific model as each has its pro's and con's. They're all good and you'll probably get attached to the one you find and thereby become an advocate for it.

My first M was an M3. Since then I've owned an M6ttl, an M2, an M7 and an MP and I also have an M8. I've sold off the M6ttt, M2, M7 and MP as I found my first love (the M3) gave me the most pleasure and enjoyment. Oh, and it's fine with a 35mm lens despite the myths: you can easily get by without an external finder or goggles.
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Old 10-17-2011   #35
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any working M will do.
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Old 10-17-2011   #36
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Another one from my first Leica.

Leica M3, Summicron 50mm rigid, TriX.

Erik.

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Old 10-17-2011   #37
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Erik, that is lovely picture.
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