Old 04-16-2019   #81
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Spoke to my film peeps at Samys in LA. They said Fuji is not discontinuing film. But is raising prices.
To be honest, they're got going to know what's going on in Fuji in Japan.

Does seem though that Fuji's film cull has halted for now. I was expecting C200 and Superia X-tra 400 to go after they killed multi packs a while back and they stopped supply for Agfa Vista.
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Old 04-17-2019   #82
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
Wrong. Again.
That text has never been published before by Fujifilm.

You are incorrect. That text, word for word, is on the brochure from the Fujifilm GF670 camera. I have a copy of it somewhere in storage. Whenever it resurfaces, I'll scan it and post it here.
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Old 04-17-2019   #83
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This thread started with a vague unsubstantiated, unverifiable anecdote. Then went south fast.
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Old 04-17-2019   #84
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Ok, you win... there is no expired film for sale anywhere. Digital cameras are computers that keep evolving. Of course there are older models for sale used. I don’t see the point of your comparison.
I said E6 is selling better now than it was years ago. And I get a reply about b&h....who cares about b&h. My point is E6 isnt dead. Good lord some people are thick around here.

You're right. E6 is dead...only expired film stock everywhere. Kodak only pretended to reintroduce it. Ted is the god of film info. That should satisfy you.
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Old 04-17-2019   #85
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Reason I don't check their site: you have to buy in lots of five rolls, and the price for an expired product is ridiculous. Of course - if nobody were buying it, I'm sure they'd sell it cheaper.
If you don't buy five rolls at a time, you can't be shooting much film.
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Old 04-17-2019   #86
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Originally Posted by Faintandfuzzy View Post
I said E6 is selling better now than it was years ago. And I get a reply about b&h....who cares about b&h. My point is E6 isnt dead. Good lord some people are thick around here.

You're right. E6 is dead...only expired film stock everywhere. Kodak only pretended to reintroduce it. Ted is the god of film info. That should satisfy you.
I don’t think I said that or anyone said that. Nobody disputed Kodak reintroduced a film. That doesn’t answer the question as to why there is always a lot of expired film around for sale. I completely agree that the film market looks better now than 3 years ago. However, when I see new film cameras being introduced by the major companies, i will really believe.
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Old 04-19-2019   #87
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You are incorrect. That text, word for word, is on the brochure from the Fujifilm GF670 camera. I have a copy of it somewhere in storage. Whenever it resurfaces, I'll scan it and post it here.
Prove it. Post it here. Otherwise it is again just another misinformation by you.

I've been at Photokina when this camera was introduced. And this text was not published. And I've never seen it in any camera brochure of Fujifilm.
It is also unlikely because in 2008, when this camera was introduced, the global film market was still about almost one billion rolls p.a. And Fujifilm had its full film line up from the peak era.
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Old 04-19-2019   #88
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On the topic of the Fuji Superia X-TRA 400 box getting a makeover (in the US and European markets only?), I really don't buy it as proof of Fujifilm's commitment to film.

Why? Because Fuji Superia X-TRA 400 has gone the way of the dodo in Japan. Gone. History. No longer available.

Does anyone else remember the Neopan 100 box getting a makeover a few years back? Neopan 100 ain't nowhere to be found now.
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Wrong. Again.
That text has never been published before by Fujifilm.
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
You are incorrect. That text, word for word, is on the brochure from the Fujifilm GF670 camera. I have a copy of it somewhere in storage. Whenever it resurfaces, I'll scan it and post it here.
On the topic of the GF670 brochure, I assume its this one (USA website) and this one (European website).

The text Skiff quoted ain't in there...
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Old 04-19-2019   #89
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Originally Posted by Paul T. View Post
This thread started with a vague unsubstantiated, unverifiable anecdote. Then went south fast.
Those doom and gloom prayers who assert that Fujifilm has stopped film production long ago have never given the smallest proof at all for that. Never ever.

These guys simply have no clue at all about film production.
Fact is that Fujifilm is by far the biggest photo film manufacturer worldwide:
Last fiscal year (ended 31th March) they have had another sales record for the instax film cameras: 10 million in that fiscal year. Fujifilm at Photokina explained that the whole global market for instax is meanwhile about 40 million users. Its a huge mass market.

Their instax film production is running in 3 shifts a day, 24h. No other film manufacturer in the world still has a 3 shift production.
Fujifilm is producing much more instax film p.a. than all other photo film manufacturers together!

And: All instant film has a negative film as an essential part in it. And this negative film is produced exactly the same ways as other photo films: The emulsions are mixed in the same kettles, and the film is coated on the same coating machine.
Therefore this "Fujifilm has scrapped its film manufacturing" is just a huge lie. Period.
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Old 04-19-2019   #90
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I don’t think I said that or anyone said that. Nobody disputed Kodak reintroduced a film. That doesn’t answer the question as to why there is always a lot of expired film around for sale.

Where is all this mythical expired film?


The shops I frequent here used to have shelves where they put all the expired film, for 50% off, but I haven't seen a SINGLE ROLL appear on these shelves in at least five years now.
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Old 04-19-2019   #91
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Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
On the topic of the GF670 brochure, I assume its this one (USA website) and this one (European website).

The text Skiff quoted ain't in there...

Exactly. It is as I said.
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Old 04-19-2019   #92
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Why? Because Fuji Superia X-TRA 400 has gone the way of the dodo in Japan. Gone. History. No longer available.
But there is Superia Premium 400 offered in Japan. Maybe the same film. I've only used Superia X-Tra 400 so far, excellent film. But I did not a direct comparison to Superia Premium, because it was never offered here where I live.
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Old 04-19-2019   #93
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Fuji's distribution is also quite interestingly odd. In the US (from seeing the online catalog at B&H) Superia Xtra 400 in 3 packs is about the best bang for the buck. $9.5


160NS was not available in 35mm for ages, but it was offered even in 220 until 2017 (?). Outlasted Pro 400 in that format, which should be a faster selling product, but I don't know how telling about stock and manufacturing it may be.
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Old 04-19-2019   #94
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
But there is Superia Premium 400 offered in Japan. Maybe the same film. I've only used Superia X-Tra 400 so far, excellent film. But I did not a direct comparison to Superia Premium, because it was never offered here where I live.
Nope, not the same film. For quite a few years, Superia Premium 400 and Superia X-Tra 400 were both domestically available, often side by side in the shops, with the Premium version (which is supposedly tweaked for better rendering of Japanese skin tones according to the marketing) offered at almost double the price of the X-TRA.
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Old 04-19-2019   #95
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The phrase "preserving the culture of photography" appears in a lot of Fuji material, including the GF670 brochure, it's easy enough to find on the web. So whether or not that exact text is new, it's probably been their standard line for a long time.

But really, companies - like politicians - will take things to the brink before making an announcement, so whether it's new material or not hardly matters. We don't know. And making a marketing poster from cutting and pasting doesn't take much.

But periodic discounting proves nothing either, it could suggest a mismatch between demand and supply at some level and over some period, or it might just be retailers competing with each other or trying to stir up demand. All sorts of things get regular discounts round here, it doesn't necessarily presage doom for the product...
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Old 04-19-2019   #96
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That doesn’t answer the question as to why there is always a lot of expired film around for sale.
I doubt that that is really the case on a global scale.
What I do know is - explained to me by big film distribution companies - that sometimes films with short guarantee dates are collected by bigger distributors: They buy them from smaller dealers and then offer them with a discount to their customers (that is what B&H e.g. is doing, some big European distributors, too).
The reason why there are films with shorter dates: Unprecise handling by store employees: Normally the "first-in-first-out" principle is used. But if the employees in the warehouse don't take care, the freshest film is put in front of the not so fresh film on the film shelf / rack and is sold first. And if that happens not only once, you have quite old film on the back of your film shelf.
Humans are not perfect, so that happens from time to time at almost all film dealers / distributors.

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I completely agree that the film market looks better now than 3 years ago. However, when I see new film cameras being introduced by the major companies, i will really believe.
There are millions of unused film cameras around. From 2000 to 2007 alone more than 80 million film cameras have been sold (you find the exact number on the CIPA webpage). I think in the short and mid-term it is more than sufficient to strengthen the film revival if more of these unused cameras are coming back into regular operation.
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Old 04-19-2019   #97
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Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Nope, not the same film. For quite a few years, Superia Premium 400 and Superia X-Tra 400 were both domestically available, often side by side in the shops, with the Premium version (which is supposedly tweaked for better rendering of Japanese skin tones according to the marketing) offered at almost double the price of the X-TRA.
Thanks.
So when the Japanese market has shown a preference for Superia Premium, it would make sense for Fujifilm to concentrate on that product in that market.
And offer the other products in the markets which prefer it.
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Old 04-19-2019   #98
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Thanks.
So when the Japanese market has shown a preference for Superia Premium, it would make sense for Fujifilm to concentrate on that product in that market.
And offer the other products in the markets which prefer it.

I do not buy the preference thing at all, Skiff. First of all there is no way that the Premium version outsold the X-TRA version to the point that Fujifilm said to themselves lets axe the cheaper option in Japan because no one is buying it. The market here is definitely big enough to support both options. Secondly, I know plenty of people in the Japanese market who would much rather have the cheaper option available (and Industrial 400 as well, which is also gone and was just X-TRA in a budget wrapping).

Rather, I see it as the reverse of what happened with Neopan 400. It was available here for quite a few months after it was no longer available anywhere else in the world. So basically you guys get the remaining X-TRA until it is gone, and we get Premium until it is gone. Am I right? I dunno, but we will find out soon enough.
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Old 04-19-2019   #99
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So basically you guys get the remaining X-TRA until it is gone, ....
I doubt that. Because it would not make economic sense at all to give this film a complete new packaging (with a complete new design) - as it was done last year. Why invest much money in a product that is discontinued? You only loose profit by that. And Fujifilm has been so successful as a company in the last years because they care for profitability.
Well, we will see.
I will continue to use Fuji films because they are excellent. And I will continue to use Kodak, Ilford and Adox films for the same reason.
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Old 04-19-2019   #100
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Your ability to see the film market through a rosy and positive "lens" is certainly admirable, Skiff.

Neopan 100 got lovely new packaging with a new design too a few years back. Come to think of it, I wonder how many of the Fujifilms that got new packaging back then are still around. Must go and check that some time.
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Old 04-19-2019   #101
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Neopan 100 got lovely new packaging with a new design too a few years back. Come to think of it, I wonder how many of the Fujifilms that got new packaging back then are still around.
All of them except Acros are still around. And that new packaging design was six years ago. Quite a long time. Due to my sources problems with the availability of raw materials caused the end of Acros.
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Old 04-19-2019   #102
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All of them except Acros are still around. And that new packaging design was six years ago. Quite a long time. Due to my sources problems with the availability of raw materials caused the end of Acros.
Quite interesting and unsettling. It does show the sourcing issue that Mirko from Adox Fotoimpex put an emphasis in. However, supposedly B&W film is just simpler to manufacture than color film, so it's not a good sign for the latter...
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Old 04-19-2019   #103
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Your ability to see the film market through a rosy and positive "lens" is certainly admirable, Skiff.
The film manufacturers themselves meanwhile have a positive view on the future of film. As explained here several times, we did a rff member meeting at last Photokina, and we've talked to all the manufacturers. And all have said that demand for film is increasing again. In some markets more, in some less. But the general positive trend is obvious.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-19-2019   #104
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Quite interesting and unsettling. It does show the sourcing issue that Mirko from Adox Fotoimpex put an emphasis in.
Getting the right raw materials is always a challenge for film manufacturers. Ilford's Simon Galley over at apug also reported about that. And ADOX CEO M. Böddecker has explained that they have finished the R&D for Polywarmtone two times. The paper was ready to get to the market. But then raw materials were not available anymore and they had to start R&D again. He said more than 120 different ingredients are in this paper.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-19-2019   #105
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Quite interesting and unsettling. It does show the sourcing issue that Mirko from Adox Fotoimpex put an emphasis in. However, supposedly B&W film is just simpler to manufacture than color film, so it's not a good sign for the latter...
Fuji officially stated not enough demand as the reason for discontinuation.

And then it "was said (on the internets, of course with no source)" that Fuji would LOVE to bring back Acros 100, but can't because they can't source all the raw components for production.

Now, you have to decide which story you want to believe...
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Old 04-19-2019   #106
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The phrase "preserving the culture of photography" appears in a lot of Fuji material, including the GF670 brochure, it's easy enough to find on the web. So whether or not that exact text is new, it's probably been their standard line for a long time.

And making a marketing poster from cutting and pasting doesn't take much.

Perhaps, but consider the effort, the optimism and the greatly-expanded presence of film products at Fujifilm's space at the most recent Photokina. For the first time in recent memory, the space devoted to film has been enlarged to the point of occupying the majority of Fujifilm's booth there. A "sea change", if you will. Fujifilm's new marketing efforts, their workshops, their tie-ins to Instagram and other social media, their new minilab machines, their new website https:/www.ishootfujifilm.com and last but not least the artwork, the brochures and the posters all point to more than just a "copy and paste" effort. Several rff members were present at Photokina and we all came away impressed with the newly redoubled focus on film culture at Fujifilm.



Cheers, Robert
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Old 05-09-2019   #107
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Yesterday, Fujifilm officially announced (in Japanese) a 30% price increase at minimum to be effective from June and the discontinuation of Superia Venus 800.
http://ffis.fujifilm.co.jp/informati...lein_0090.html
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Old 05-09-2019   #108
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Last year here in Nagoya in one shop I got a roll of Fujifilm Superia400 135-27 for free every time I brought a roll of C41 film for developing and small prints. I was told this was a campaign and they wanted to get rid of the film.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Yesterday, Fujifilm officially announced (in Japanese) a 30% price increase at minimum to be effective from June and the discontinuation of Superia Venus 800.
http://ffis.fujifilm.co.jp/informati...lein_0090.html
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Old 05-09-2019   #109
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I don't know if this has been posted, but here's the official press release from Fuji:

https://www.fujifilm.com/news/n190225.html

"[...] Fujifilm will continue to study the market demand, and make adjustments to product assortment as dictated by our customers and market conditions."

Dunno what else, if anything has been officially said.
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Old 05-09-2019   #110
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Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Yesterday, Fujifilm officially announced (in Japanese) a 30% price increase at minimum to be effective from June and the discontinuation of Superia Venus 800.
http://ffis.fujifilm.co.jp/informati...lein_0090.html
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Old 05-09-2019   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Yesterday, Fujifilm officially announced (in Japanese) a 30% price increase at minimum to be effective from June and the discontinuation of Superia Venus 800.
http://ffis.fujifilm.co.jp/informati...lein_0090.html
So essentially another 30% increase in top of the April 1st. Are they adjusting to match the prices of Kodak, which in Japan are quite high? I can see how this will roll out worldwide eventually.

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I don't know if this has been posted, but here's the official press release from Fuji:



https://www.fujifilm.com/news/n190225.html



"[...] Fujifilm will continue to study the market demand, and make adjustments to product assortment as dictated by our customers and market conditions."



Dunno what else, if anything has been officially said.
That's the April 1st increase, which given the recent Japanese post, is not the same one. If I am not wrong, it's two consecutive 30% increases.

I may just hold my own opinion about it, but does not seem like a good sign.
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Old 05-10-2019   #112
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Last year here in Nagoya in one shop I got a roll of Fujifilm Superia400 135-27 for free every time I brought a roll of C41 film for developing and small prints. I was told this was a campaign and they wanted to get rid of the film.

Sweet deal!
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Old 05-10-2019   #113
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Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Yesterday, Fujifilm officially announced (in Japanese) a 30% price increase at minimum to be effective from June and the discontinuation of Superia Venus 800.
http://ffis.fujifilm.co.jp/informati...lein_0090.html
That is just exactly that increase which was announced some weeks ago in English for the non-Japanese, worldwide market.
So nothing new, just the same announcement now in Japanese for the home market.
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Old 05-10-2019   #114
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edit: like Skiff said...
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Old 05-10-2019   #115
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That is just exactly that increase which was announced some weeks ago in English for the non-Japanese, worldwide market.
So nothing new, just the same announcement now in Japanese for the home market.
Here it is said very clear, that it is simply the former worldwide price announcement from some weeks ago:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/346885...m-prices-by-30

Interesting: Fujicolor 100 and Pro 160 NS remain in the film programme.
And here is an official Fujifilm statement that they are evaluating the possibility of a new BW film:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw_L1M4lHIo/
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Old 05-10-2019   #116
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Several rff members were present at Photokina and we all came away impressed with the newly redoubled focus on film culture at Fujifilm.
And yet in the past year Fujifilm has discontinued films and raised prices, so there seems to be a disconnect between what they say and what they do. We are down to no black and white, three transparency and about five color negative choices. I can see them whacking that down a little further as they run out of existing stock to one transparency and three color negative films. It makes sense to rationalize production.
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Old 05-10-2019   #117
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And yet in the past year Fujifilm has discontinued films and raised prices, so there seems to be a disconnect between what they say and what they do.
No.
Because you overlook one decisive point: The Photokina was significantly after the discontinuance announcements. And the announcements were made several months after the decisions were made at the headqurter (the decisions were already made in 2017).
Fujifilm told us that they had seen a significant demand change in spring and summer 2018. The positive photokina signals came in September 2018.
After that the more active marketing started.
So it looks like in summer / autumn last year Fujifilm readjusted their strategy. The Fujifilm stuff was very open minded. They explained Fujifilm is like a super huge oil tanker: It takes quite a lot time to fully change direction. We've seen that in the past with instax and their X cameras: They started quite slow and cautious, and increased their efforts step-by-step. It took them years to build their lines up.
It is realistic to expect that their actions concerning the film revival will also take some time and will be step-by-step. With small steps first. And probably later (3-4 years) with first film re-introductions. Remember how late in the game they were with their (now successful) x system.

And concerning the price increase. Kodak has published recently that they made almost 20 million bucks loss last year with their film production. They certainly cannot survive with their current prices. They have to do what is necessary: Set realistic, cost covering prices.
All manufacturers are sitting in the same boat concerning the current market price level: It is too low for a sustainable, profitable operation.
With lots of films Kodak's price increases in the past have been higher than those of Fujifilm.

Cheers, Jan

P.S.: Fujifilm just yesterday published their financial data for their fiscal year. Positive and very successful.
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Old 05-10-2019   #118
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The last nail in the coffin, for me, was when they killed Acros.
The former nails were NP400 and NP1600.


...and Fuji's chronic need to state "Fuji continues to support film",

while they are slashing and dashing their own lineup.

I really love the Fuji-films and I have many rolls, color and B&W in my freezer, that will last me for years. (bought as soon as I got whiff that they would cancel a certain film).
Fuji reala, NP1600, NP400, many Acros-rolls...


But Fuji can stuff all the left-over backing paper up their arse.....they are dead to me.


Instax piece of drivel.....plastic cameras, with plastic lenses, micro, low-resolution formats, designed for millenials?


No thank you.


My advice to anyone that like Fuji films; Get your hands on it now, and stuff it in your freezer, Fuji will be out of the film-business by 2020, there is nothing that indicates otherwise.
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Old 05-10-2019   #119
Ted Striker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by znapper View Post

But Fuji can stuff all the left-over backing paper up their arse.....they are dead to me.
Fujifilm should sell their left over backing paper to Kodak, since their paper is of very low quality.

I agree with the rest of your post....Fujifilm is exiting all non Instax film.
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Old 05-10-2019   #120
jonmanjiro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
That is just exactly that increase which was announced some weeks ago in English for the non-Japanese, worldwide market.
So nothing new, just the same announcement now in Japanese for the home market.
Yes, that's correct, that's why I wrote "(in Japanese)". Its just one of multiple price hikes in recent years in the domestic market. Film prices in Japan have gone through the roof over the last few years, so much so that many serious film shooters I know already buy in bulk from overseas because its cheaper.

The more unwelcome surprise this time is that Superia Venus 800 will be discontinued.
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