Old 02-16-2019   #81
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
It has been explained in this thread several times. Look above.
I find those answers lacking rigor and logic. Nonsensical. There's no supporting evidence whatsoever to make those explanations compelling. None.
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Old 02-16-2019   #82
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
I find those answers lacking rigor and logic. Nonsensical.
What you find or not is irrelevant. The market facts are as they are, not as you want them to be.
The market for inkjet products made by Tetenal has collapsed unexpectedly during a very short time frame. That was simply not foreseeable. If markets behave in a disruptive manner, then you can easily get in severe trouble as a company.
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Old 02-16-2019   #83
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What you find or not is irrelevant. The market facts are as they are, not as you want them to be.
The market for inkjet products made by Tetenal has collapsed unexpectedly during a very short time frame. That was simply not foreseeable. If markets behave in a disruptive manner, then you can easily get in severe trouble as a company.
Nonsense. A well run company has an accounting department that gets DAILY updates on money coming in and going out. My tiny 100 person company has this and we know THAT WEEK when we have a lack of orders coming in. If there are problems with sales, our management team makes adjustments to counter act these. These adjustments are as severe as needed (and they sometimes are very severe, as we are in a very cyclical business).

No company the size of Tetenal collapses unless there are serious, systemic problems inside the company, independent of the market. A well run company does not collapse overnight the way Tetanal did. Where are the cash reserves? Where are the lines of credit?

For god's sake SEARS kept going for a decade after it was clear as day they were a zombie company, yet Tetenal goes bankrupt in a few months. Something ain't right.
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Old 02-16-2019   #84
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Something ain't right.
It's clear what was wrong there in the past:
- not a strong focus
- too much activities in fields in which too much competitors are active
- too much activities in the low-margin digital areas
- bad luck because of very fast, drastic market changes.

That will be changed with New Tetenal:
- strong focus on the increasing market for photo chemistry
- photo chemistry is the field in which Tetenal is best and has competitive advantages
- they get rid of all the non-profitable areas.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 02-16-2019   #85
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That is all well and good Jan. But, if I were in the position of some of those companies who are very dependent on Tetanal's product I might want to consider looking at possible ways of reducing that unhealthy dependency before the next bankruptcy.

Just a thought. Perhaps this is a disaster narrowly averted. Or perhaps this really should be a wake up call for the industry. Depending on one supplier, no matter how large, may not be a great business decision. Complacency and arrogance can effect us all.
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Old 02-17-2019   #86
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Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
- bad luck because of very fast, drastic market changes.
Where's the evidence to back up this statement?

Where are the other casualties from this drastic market change? I see no other companies in this market going insolvent.

Why did Tetenal not react to it?

Why did they not reorganize under bankruptcy? Why instead go insolvent?

If they truly had a viable business, a reorganization would be the most logical and cost effective way forward. That this did not happen shows me that there are deeper, more systemic problems within Tetenal that we are not being told of. A viable business could have gotten a line of credit to operate under while reorganizing. Tetenal, as we know it, ceased to exist instead, with the employees trying to resurrect it into another company.
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Old 02-17-2019   #87
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That is all well and good Jan. But, if I were in the position of some of those companies who are very dependent on Tetanal's product I might want to consider looking at possible ways of reducing that unhealthy dependency before the next bankruptcy.
Several companies already have had activities going on to become more independent before Tetenal got in trouble. For example Adox, who is building up own chemistry production for quite some time now.
Just recently they installed a new 300L vessel for photo chemistry production:
http://www.adox.de/Photo/aufbau-der-chemieproduktion/

But I think that for those who are curently very dependent on Tetenal's photo chemistry production like Ilford or Kodak Alaris the best is to support New Tetenal as best as possible. Tetenal has the know-how, high quality stuff, and can now completely focus on photo chemistry alone. Their core products.
And even if New Tetenal won't be succesful in the future, then there will be enough photo chemistry manufacturers to fill this gap (Fuji Hunt, CPAC, Champion, Adox, Bellini, Calbe, Spur, Moersch etc.).

Cheers, Jan
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Old 02-17-2019   #88
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Where's the evidence to back up this statement?
Tetenal is a German company. And there are several German photo forums and social media groups, in which experts who are directly involved in this process have explained all the background, including Tetenal stuff.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 02-17-2019   #89
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Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Tetenal is a German company. And there are several German photo forums and social media groups, in which experts who are directly involved in this process have explained all the background, including Tetenal stuff.

Cheers, Jan
I see. No evidence that can be shared. You'll understand that I discount this assumption then.
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Old 02-17-2019   #90
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That is all well and good Jan. But, if I were in the position of some of those companies who are very dependent on Tetanal's product I might want to consider looking at possible ways of reducing that unhealthy dependency before the next bankruptcy.

Just a thought. Perhaps this is a disaster narrowly averted. Or perhaps this really should be a wake up call for the industry. Depending on one supplier, no matter how large, may not be a great business decision. Complacency and arrogance can effect us all.
This is a very wise idea of course and you can be certain that no company wants to rely on another company that crashed and burned as fast as Tetenal did. They have proven themselves to be highly unreliable and so alternative sources are surely being sought in the interest of stability and longevity.

If the management of Tetenal could not manage their buisness before, there's no reason to believe they can do it again. Why were they unable to obtain credit to weather the poor market situation and dispose of unprofitable businesses? Corporations do this all the time. Eastman Kodak (post bankruptcy) is a prime example.

That's a real simple question that no one has an answer for.
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Old 02-17-2019   #91
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I see. No evidence that can be shared. You'll understand that I discount this assumption then.
The evidence has been shared here. The most important points have been translated and posted here. Short and focussed.
But why should any of the German speaking rff members translate and post all this numerous stuff in detail here for you? It would be a complete waste of time, because you would not believe it anyway.
You are generally not interested in facts which contradict your doom and gloom belief. We've seen that again and again and again here. You are permanently bashing the manufacturers, Kodak, Fujifilm, Ilford (over at apug) and now Tetenal. Due to your countless posts all of them are idiots and losers. And only you are the genius who knows what to do.

This thread is dead. A helpful discussion is not possible here anymore.
We will see how New Tetenal is going on. I bet they will have success.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 02-17-2019   #92
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Read the news, glad Tetenal is making a narrow escape. A week ago I bought a few bags of XTol, just to be on the safe side. Pioneer's post above makes a lot of sense - Kodak and Ilford must have (or devise, if they haven't) contingency plans in case of such emergencies. That said, I wish all the best to new Tetenal and workers there.
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Old 02-17-2019   #93
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Amaloco Photochemicals the Netherlands made already in 2008 the decision to stop in the year they reached their break even point. In photographic chemicals you cannot make money anymore. Side effects killed Tetenal, bad luck in the inktjet business and a few mistakes in their business model. So I can hardly believe New Tetenal will have a big success. Maybe with only some specialists and get rid of a lot of employees they can maybe survive for a few years doing in Photochemicals: It is a dead business.
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Old 02-17-2019   #94
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In photographic chemicals you can not make money anymore.
That is absolutely wrong! Two friends of mine are working in that business and they have often explained to me that photo chemistry has the best margins of all film based products. That is for example the reason why Maco, ars-imago, Bergger and CineStill have entered this market with re-labelled chemistry made by others and sold under their own brand.
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Old 02-17-2019   #95
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Ladies & Gents - Tetanal's photo-chemical business isn't dead yet. While the original poster of this thread doesn't seem to have even a milliliter of hope for the photo-chemical unit making a new start.

https://emulsive.org/articles/news/n...parent-company

I wish them well.
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Old 02-18-2019   #96
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You can only survive when selling specialized high quality products. However the amount of people who are in analogue photo and darkroom is very small. Further most film developers are cheap and you can do a long time with it. The margin is OK but you can not sell 100.000 bottles anymore ....
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Old 02-18-2019   #97
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Gee, what fun!

I am glad to hear the news that is being reported and I wish this newly forming company luck.
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Old 02-18-2019   #98
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Ditto. Having (i think) finally got happier with using their C41 kit I hope to be using them again and again.
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Old 02-19-2019   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotohuis View Post
You can only survive when selling specialized high quality products.
But in an increasing and competitive film market it is of course not possible to benefit from the film revival with that strategy.

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Originally Posted by Fotohuis View Post
However the amount of people who are in analogue photo and darkroom is very small.
It is compared to 20 years ago. But the situation is improving, the number is increasing again. Film distributors like Fotoimpex, ars-imago, ag-photographic, maco etc. have hired new staff to satisfy the increasing demand. And in Belgium - which is smaller (less inhabitants) than the Netherlands two new film distributors are now serving the increasing demand.
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Old 02-19-2019   #100
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It is compared to 20 years ago.
1995-1996 was the top year for Amaloco Photochemicals. Since that era everything went down in business and fast after 2004 when Agfa and Ilford, later Forte, Efke, Jobo etc. went into bankruptcy. Now Tetenal: A great market? I do not think so. Finished in fact for multinationals, as said specialized high quality products in small batches.
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Old 02-19-2019   #101
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1995-1996 was the top year for Amaloco Photochemicals.
So what. This relatively small regional photo chemistry manufacturer has never been an important benchmark or indicator in the industry (I know their products quite well because I have used some of them in the past).
The global peak in film sales have been in 1999 and 2000 with about 3 billion rolls of film (therefore I've said 20 years ago).
In the US market the peak in film sales was even later, in 2003 with 1 billion rolls.

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Since that era everything went down in business and fast after 2004 when Agfa and Ilford, later Forte, Efke, Jobo etc. went into bankruptcy.
Ilford and Jobo are now very successful with increasing business. Despite (or because of?) their former insolvencies. As the film market and photo chemistry market is increasing again, New Tetenal has the chance to also be successful with their new focused business strategy.

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Now Tetenal: A great market? I do not think so.
We had an international RFF member meeting last year at Photokina. And we've visited all companies of the film industry and talked to them. And all - with no exception - have reported significantly increasing demand and said they are investing in the future of film photography.
Some European and Asian companies reported sales increases in the 30-50% range p.a. in the last three years.
The market is growing again, definitely.
And therefore companies like Kodak, Fujifilm, Polaroid Originals, Adox, Jobo, Ilford, ars-imago, CineStill and several others are introducing new products.
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Old 02-19-2019   #102
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And therefore companies like Kodak, Fujifilm, Polaroid Originals, Adox, Jobo, Ilford, ars-imago, CineStill and several others are introducing new products.
So when is Acros coming back?
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Old 02-19-2019   #103
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A joke. Fuji (film) will never return to film. In a few years it is completely exit in film business for this multinational.
Only small specialized companies can survive in this new market where B&W will be the core business.
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Old 02-19-2019   #104
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So when is Acros coming back?
I don't have a crystal ball.......
With Acros there are some problems with lack of former raw materials. There is new R&D necessary for new Acros. That takes time and money.
But from what we've (the rff members at Photokina) got on information at Photokina Fujifilm is now concentrating on production of the current portfolio (with the re-introduced 8x10 sheet reversal films). And keeping up with demand = re-installing additional converting capacities.
I guess after 3-4 years of ongoing increasing demand Fujifilm will "totally switch on" with new (or re-introduced films). And then will go full speed. Fuji is mostly "late to the game" (see their X cameras), but when they have entered the game, they go full speed.
We will see.....in the meantime the best we can do is to buy and use the current outstanding Fuji films. The higher the demand, the more likely they will increase their activities.
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Old 02-19-2019   #105
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A joke. Fuji (film) will never return to film. In a few years it is completely exit in film business for this multinational.
Only small specialized companies can survive in this new market where B&W will be the core business.
The demand for color film is much, much higher than the demand for BW film on a global scale!
E.g. In Germany alone more than a million color film rolls are sold p.a. by the drugstore chains only (the amount from the big distributors have to be added). That is more than double of what all dealers together sell as BW film!

The much much higher demand for color film is the reason why Kodak has reintroduced Ektachrome.
That is also the reason why Kodak has introduced ProImage now also in Europe.
That is the reason why Fujifilm has recently introduced new 3packs of C200 and X-Tra 400 in the NA market. These are their best selling films in most markets.

BW film has always been a niche product compared to color film.
That hasn't changed. And everytime when I talk to film distributors they tell me that also today color film has the biggest demand. The new users, the film beginners all go for color first.
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Old 02-19-2019   #106
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Skiff - I read that FujiFilm plans to exit both B&W film and paper by 2020.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...alling-demand/

So, as an outsider, I don't see rhe return of Acros on any horizon.
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Old 02-19-2019   #107
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BW film has always been a niche product compared to color film.
.
ALWAYS??!! OMG, I hate being so old that I know how ridiculous this statement is.
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Old 02-19-2019   #108
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Skiff - I read that FujiFilm plans to exit both B&W film and paper by 2020.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...alling-demand/

So, as an outsider, I don't see rhe return of Acros on any horizon.
That is 'old news'. After the discontinuation notice of Acros Fujifilm has got lots of market reaction and requests for going on with it. In an interview with a Japanese business magazine Fujifilm said they were overwhelmed by the customer interest/demand for Acros. And that they are looking into it, whether Acros could be back in the future. They said that there are severe problems with raw materials which are no longer available. So new R&D is needed. Whether it is possible and realistic economically, cannot be said yet due to Fujifilm. We have to wait and see.
I expect at least reintroduced color films in some years, especially if the customers significantly increase the demand for current Fujifilms. Fujifilm has been so successful in the last years because they are a strictly market driven company: If a market is shrinking, they adapt to that. If a market is growing, they adapt to that, too, with more activities and products (see RA-4, Instax and X-series).
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Old 02-19-2019   #109
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ALWAYS??!! OMG, I hate being so old that I know how ridiculous this statement is.
Well, let's not splitting hairs .
You are right, not always, but in the last 50 years in the major markets.
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Old 02-19-2019   #110
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Well, let's not splitting hairs .
You are right, not always, but in the last 50 years in the major markets.
That’s better!

I was about to have a talk about it with my friend, Matthew Brady.
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Old 02-19-2019   #111
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A joke. Fuji (film) will never return to film.
They have never left film. And already have increased their film activities significantly (Instax, X-Ray, more marketing for standard photo films, new 3-packs for NA market, reintroduction of 8x10 color reversal film).
Fact is that Fujifilm is by far the biggest film manufacturer worldwide.
Fujifilm is producing more film than all other film manufacturers together!! They are increasing their market share of X-ray films, and their Instax film production alone is bigger than the standard photo film production of all other film manufacturers together. They are producing Instax film in three shifts per day (24h) seven days a week. In 2018 they have sold about 10 million Instax cameras globally (Instax has meanwhile higher sales than DSLRs, compact digital cameras and DSLMs).
And that has been their official statement at Photokina concerning standard photo film:
"Keep on Rolling!
Preserving The Culture of Photography
One of the most powerful innovations of the 19th century was the invention of film.
Since then, film has been used to capture and document the most important events in history as well as the everyday moments in everyday lifes. Fujifilm is on a mission to preserve the culture of photography, and with our range of silver halide films, photographers can continue to harness the emotion, permanence and appeal of film photography".

Under that statement on the brochures for the visitors of the Fujifilm booth was Fujifilm's professional film lineup with pictures (C200, X-Tra 400, Pro 400H, Provia 100F, Velvia 50, Velvia 100).

You should have visited Photokina. Then you would have seen all the recent changes in the market to the positive.

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Old 02-19-2019   #112
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I don't have a crystal ball.......
With Acros there are some problems with lack of former raw materials.
Fujifilm's published statement on Acros was that it was discontinued due to lack of demand. There was no mention at all of raw material availability.

Fujifilm stated very explicitly that a raw material issue was the reason for the *first* discontinuation of Neopan 400. That problem was solved and the film returned to the market. When Neopan 400 was discontinued a second time, again it was stated due to a lack of demand for the film.
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Old 02-19-2019   #113
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Indeed: A lack of demand.

When the new instant film of Fuji was not that successful they were already stopped with all films.
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Old 02-19-2019   #114
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Fujifilm's published statement on Acros was that it was discontinued due to lack of demand. There was no mention at all of raw material availability.
The statement concerning raw materials came later in an interview with a Japanese business magazine.
Acros 100 was a unique film: No other BW film manufacturer was ever capable offering a film with such outstanding Schwarzschild effect characteristics. I wouldn't be surprised if that was due to some very special (seldom) raw materials.

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Old 02-19-2019   #115
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Talking

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Ladies & Gents - Tetanal's photo-chemical business isn't dead yet. While the original poster of this thread doesn't seem to have even a milliliter of hope for the photo-chemical unit making a new start.

https://emulsive.org/articles/news/n...parent-company

I wish them well.
from the linked article:

"...At this crucial point, the founding and commencement of the business activities of the NEW TETENAL is becoming more concrete. Following the planned production by the insolvent TETENAL, the operational business of the new company is due to commence on 1 April 2019.

"From the beginning of March, it will be possible for customers and cooperation partners of NEW TETENAL to place orders that are a prerequisite for starting production in the new start-up company from 1 April,” explain Carsten Gehring and Burkhardt Müller."

I hope the commencement date of 01 April isn't an April fools' joke!

(I'm sure it's not - I wish them well, also).
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Old 02-19-2019   #116
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When the new instant film of Fuji was not that successful they were already stopped with all films.
Both wrong:
1. Instax is not new at all: It was introduced in 1998. And is growing each year since 2004.
2. The film production without instax (standard photo films, single use cameras, X-ray films, archive films) is so big by its own (bigger than Ilford or Foma) that it can be kept running. That it is easier including instax, of course, no question.

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Old 02-19-2019   #117
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I hope the commencement date of 01 April isn't an April fools' joke!

(I'm sure it's not - I wish them well, also).
Certainly not. Northern Germans have not so much humor.......

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