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CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

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Old 02-10-2019   #41
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The 35/1.8 IS STM is not big. Other than that I doubt we'd see any truly small native lenses soon. Manufacturers are concentrating on rushing out big pro lenses for the Tokyo Olympics next year.

That's why it seems to be good for adapted small lenses for the moment...
On a tangent, this ties in with the Olympus E-M1X. A pro body with AI based subject tracking of faces, people and cars is definitely aimed at events like the Olympics.

Man, can you imagine shooting the Olympics?? I have no idea what that would entail in terms of red tape and restrictions, but I imagine the experience would still be awesome.
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Old 02-10-2019   #42
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Will be interesting see what Canon do with apsc line. Sony seems determined to keep theirs alive, a6400 just being announced. Canons two mirrorless systems cannot share lenses like Sony.
While Canon's EF-S lenses only fit the APS-C models, Canon's full frame EF lenses fit both full frame and APS-C.
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Old 02-10-2019   #43
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While Canon's EF-S lenses only fit the APS-C models, Canon's full frame EF lenses fit both full frame and APS-C.
Those lens systems are for SLR. Topic is about Canon mirrorless.
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Old 02-10-2019   #44
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Sony 67 percent Canon 22 Nikon the rest...Sony clearly dominates that market sir...like I said too little too late. Now they're playing catch-up in a down sizing segment. And that's just FF...smaller sensor Fuji is mopping the floor with them
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Old 02-10-2019   #45
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Sony 67 percent Canon 22 Nikon the rest...Sony clearly dominates that market sir...like I said too little too late. Now they're playing catch-up in a down sizing segment. And that's just FF...smaller sensor Fuji is mopping the floor with them
Try again.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/n...to-canon-eos-r

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Old 02-10-2019   #46
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well, technically that's just point of sale. it doesn't say anything about the percent of current full frame mirrorless users.
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Old 02-10-2019   #47
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well, technically that's just point of sale. it doesn't say anything about the percent of current full frame mirrorless users.
Iíd say Point of Sale data is a pretty good indicator of how well a model is selling. The Ďpercent of current full frame mirrorless usersí is 100% irrelevant for how well a new model is selling now. But as we all know, you can come up with statistics to prove anything, so choose a different set of statistics if you want.
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Old 02-10-2019   #48
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Sony's share has dropped to 67%. The Nikon Z7 grabbed 10.4%, while the Canon EOS R stole a whopping 22.1% of Sony's lunch money Ė impressive, considering that it only came out in October, while Nikon's camera was released in September. Article 1

Article has different numbers. Which is correct?
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Old 02-10-2019   #49
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Sony 67 percent Canon 22 Nikon the rest...Sony clearly dominates that market sir...like I said too little too late. Now they're playing catch-up in a down sizing segment. And that's just FF...smaller sensor Fuji is mopping the floor with them
It has nothing to do which brand dominates, I just pointed to this article, to show what your DOA statement was false.
Are Sony DSLRs DOA according to your logic?
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-di...&intl=nosplash
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Old 02-10-2019   #50
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But how well Canon FF mirrorless cameras have sold recently does not tell you what percentage of the FF mirrorless userbase uses Canon FF mirrorless.

Point being that recently Sony FF mirrorless sold less than Canon FF mirrorless, but the Sony FF mirrorless userbase is still much larger.

Itís not like Iím a Sony fanboy. I like the Canon R grip the best, and Iíd get one if it had a joystick, good eye-detect AF, dual card slots, FF 4k, and a 50/1.8 IS and 70-200/2.8.
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Old 02-10-2019   #51
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These cameras (Canon and Nikon) are DOA already. Sony and Fuji are in charge of this market. Too little too late
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarama View Post
Sony 67 percent Canon 22 Nikon the rest...Sony clearly dominates that market sir...like I said too little too late. Now they're playing catch-up in a down sizing segment. And that's just FF...smaller sensor Fuji is mopping the floor with them
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But how well Canon FF mirrorless cameras have sold recently does not tell you what percentage of the FF mirrorless userbase uses Canon FF mirrorless.

Point being that recently Sony FF mirrorless sold less than Canon FF mirrorless, but the Sony FF mirrorless userbase is still much larger.

Itís not like Iím a Sony fanboy. I like the Canon R grip the best, and Iíd get one if it had a joystick, good eye-detect AF, dual card slots, FF 4k, and a 50/1.8 IS and 70-200/2.8.
If you go back and read the thread, no one said that Canon had a bigger userbase than Sony. I doubt anyone would argue, they've been in the game for a lot longer. Contarama said that the Canon and Nikon were "DOA". But, point of sale data shows anything but DOA, it actually shows that a LOT of people bought a Canon.

If you read into it a little, you could easily infer that people only bought a Sony because it was the only affordable game in town. They literally had no competition. A little competition and they fall over at the first hurdle.
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Old 02-10-2019   #52
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But how well Canon FF mirrorless cameras have sold recently does not tell you what percentage of the FF mirrorless userbase uses Canon FF mirrorless.

Point being that recently Sony FF mirrorless sold less than Canon FF mirrorless, but the Sony FF mirrorless userbase is still much larger.

It’s not like I’m a Sony fanboy. I like the Canon R grip the best, and I’d get one if it had a joystick, good eye-detect AF, dual card slots, FF 4k, and a 50/1.8 IS and 70-200/2.8.
The Sony large base is simply because they were alone with overpriced Leica for years.

Canon has two versions of 70-200 2.8. One thing "not a Sony fanboys" needs to understand is what Canon EF lenses works on R just like on any EOS camera.

I have no idea why this dual slot comes just as often as film scanning in airport comes.
I have digital cameras for years and non of them dual slots. Never a problem.
Maybe it was the problem in nineties, just like it was problem film scanning in seventies.

I not a Sony fanboy for sure. I had Sony A7 in shopping card few times, great price on bodies, but every time I look at lenses to deal with, I'm glad I have Canon L glass.

And if I need 4K, with Canon it is different gear. But I don't need it. I'm taking still pictures and I'm at photography forums.

How difficult it is to understand ?
I have Canon EOS from nineties. I still have it. It works. It has no dual slots, it has one film channel. I have ten years old Canon DLSRs and they reliable as nothing else I ever had. And no dual slots in them either. With RP I could replace them with simple, small body. And still use best lenses I ever have. And bunch of old film EOS lenses.
How big is Canon EF lenses users base?

It just same as my digital Leica. It has no video, it has no eye focus, it has no dual slots. But it works just same way with the lens (via adapter) I'm using since eighties.

Sony has none of it. No history, no not expensive, film era lenses. And no professional service as Canon has where I'm. You know, it is nice to have service nearby at least for one camera brand
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Old 02-11-2019   #53
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There is no question that for Canon users with a gaggle of Canon lenses the Canon mirrorless cameras will be attractive. Brand loyalty counts for a lot. I was just pointing out that the Canon EOS RP specifications are comparable to the five year old Sony A7 which is half the price. And you are going to have to use an adapter either way.
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Old 02-11-2019   #54
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Didn't Canon itself say cameras were???? Didn't Nikon say focus on the high end?
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Old 02-14-2019   #55
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$1299 is pretty great but no 50mm at a decent price seems silly.
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Old 02-14-2019   #56
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$1299 is pretty great but no 50mm at a decent price seems silly.
I am sure the Canon will cook up a nifty fifty and a posh fast 50 with the red ring in the near future for their FF mirrorless system.

They got a whole slew of zoom lenses and even two 85mm lenses slated for sale later in 2019, I am sure the fifty mils will not be far behind.

Much better quick offerings and varied selection in native glass in a short time span than Nikon or even Sony when the A7 was introduced for their FF mirrorless cameras.
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Old 02-14-2019   #57
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Looks like a much better body for my 35/2 Milvus than the 5DII I have.
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Old 02-14-2019   #58
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I am sure the Canon will cook up a nifty fifty and a posh fast 50 with the red ring in the near future for their FF mirrorless system.
They’re selling the 50mm 1.2 already for $2199, but no other 50mm is on any road map. That is my point. For me, a decent but cheap 50mm is a must have for a cheap camera. Others will say that they have a 35mm at an ok price, but to me the two focal lengths are completely different.
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Old 02-14-2019   #59
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Theyíre selling the 50mm 1.2 already for $2199, but no other 50mm is on any road map. That is my point.
Its good that they are selling the fast f 1.2 already.

I am sure a run of the mill Canon f 1.8 50mm will be not too far off. That speed of very affordable 50mm lens is a traditional Canon staple.

The slow macro 50mm lens will be a there too, eventually.
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Old 02-14-2019   #60
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Its good that they are selling the fast f 1.2 already.

I am sure a run of the mill Canon f 1.8 50mm will be not too far off. That speed of very affordable 50mm lens is a traditional Canon staple.

The slow macro 50mm lens will be a there too, eventually.
True, maybe a 50mm 1.8 is just not sexy enough for a road map.
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Old 02-14-2019   #61
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Wow $1400.00 for a 26 megapixel full frame, great news for Canon user if they
want to add or switch over to mirrorless. Will be interesting to see how they are
accepted. I tell you Sony must be giving them (Canon and Nikon) nightmares at
night that they had to go mirrorless.
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Old 02-14-2019   #62
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1299$ with adapter, bh pre order.
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Old 02-14-2019   #63
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In other words, it's the least ugly of an ugly crew.
Agreed! None of the mirrorless cameras are visually appealing, but at least this one doesn't pretend there's a pentaprism in it.
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Old 02-14-2019   #64
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Fuji X-Pro2 + 23/2 = $1,949
Canon EOS RP + RF 35/1.8 = $1,748

Which of the 35mm focal length choices would you pick? APS-C vs FF ... optical viewfinder vs EVF?
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Old 02-14-2019   #65
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Agreed! None of the mirrorless cameras are visually appealing, but at least this one doesn't pretend there's a pentaprism in it.
Itís not just about pretending to have a pentaprism but also allowing space for the rear screen and buttons. Without the VF hump, the screen must be smaller, unless it is in a corner (RF style).
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Old 02-14-2019   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giganova View Post
Fuji X-Pro2 + 23/2 = $1,949
Canon EOS RP + RF 35/1.8 = $1,748

Which of the 35mm focal length choices would you pick? APS-C vs FF ... optical viewfinder vs EVF?
Coming from a Leica, the optical VF wins any day of the week. And it also has an EVF too.
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Old 02-14-2019   #67
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the best news of the day is the RF-mount 70-200/2.8. look at how small it is!



if the bokeh stays soft and smooth, this might be the killer app that canon needed.
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Old 02-14-2019   #68
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The camera will look like a lens cap!
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Old 02-14-2019   #69
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Sooo Canon has released a new 26mp FF mirrorless for $1300, while Olympus released a new 20mp m43 camera for $3000?

Hmm.
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Old 02-14-2019   #70
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Originally Posted by giganova View Post
Fuji X-Pro2 + 23/2 = $1,949
Canon EOS RP + RF 35/1.8 = $1,748

Which of the 35mm focal length choices would you pick? APS-C vs FF ... optical viewfinder vs EVF?
X-Pro2 every time...
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Old 02-14-2019   #71
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Sooo Canon has released a new 26mp FF mirrorless for $1300, while Olympus released a new 20mp m43 camera for $3000?

Hmm.
For two totally different markets... a super mainstream budget ff vs a very special usage m43 camera... but of course people can only see sensor size as a differentiating factor in cameras these days.
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Old 02-14-2019   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giganova View Post
Fuji X-Pro2 + 23/2 = $1,949
Canon EOS RP + RF 35/1.8 = $1,748

Which of the 35mm focal length choices would you pick? APS-C vs FF ... optical viewfinder vs EVF?
I don't know anymore. I looked at provided samples from RP and at full size view it looks awfull. Why fake 26 mp if obviously sensor not supporting it....
Very disappointed.
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Old 02-14-2019   #73
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Another shiny new piece of gear to get all excited about. I still fall for it myself, particularly when the price puts it within reach.

In a few weeks/months it's just another boring camera, a model that does things ever so slightly better than its predecessor.

In recent memory, the only groundbreaking camera from a features perspective is the D850. I don't have a need for one myself, but kudos to Nikon for giving photographers a serious upgrade.
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Old 02-15-2019   #74
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These cameras (Canon and Nikon) are DOA already. Sony and Fuji are in charge of this market. Too little too late
Come on... hyperbole at its finest.
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Old 02-15-2019   #75
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I just can’t get over the size of the mirrorless lenses. It seems so off balance for me. Tiny body with massive lens. I think Leica ruined me with an m6/M2 and 35 or 50mm Cron. So small and easy to carry. I graduated to the Fuji XPro2 to stay along with that compact system. Now, I have an MP240 on the way to see if I like it. They all have compact and high quality output. I still have my canon 6d system and use it for weddings or concerts and stuff, but I doubt I would move to a canon mirrorless.
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Old 02-15-2019   #76
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For two totally different markets... a super mainstream budget ff vs a very special usage m43 camera... but of course people can only see sensor size as a differentiating factor in cameras these days.
I see price too as a differentiating factor. And I see an m43 camera for almost 3x the price of a FF camera that will have better pic quality.

I love my m43 OM EM10mk2. It is tiny and has excellent quality considering its size. The EM1X is not tiny, not remotely, but the excuse is that it is for pro severe use. But.. Pros who need a camera for severe use have FF options that have much better image quality than an m43. Once you're shooting at that level you just need the best tool. And will pay for it as it is a business expense. The EM1X does not match up to pro Canikons, no matter how much weather sealing they glue all over it, as it is hampered by that sensor.
So it's kinda interesting who will really buy it. Prosumers will see the price tag and pick much better image quality cameras for less money. Pros will see that sensor and pick better image quality cameras with pro build.
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Old 02-15-2019   #77
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“And will pay for it as it’s a business expense”

But the business still needs to pay for it. If cost didn’t matter for a business then why is my company car a Toyota and not a Porsche? Cost always matters. If my business can spend $3k less on a camera then I can get paid $3k more.
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Old 02-15-2019   #78
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I see price too as a differentiating factor. And I see an m43 camera for almost 3x the price of a FF camera that will have better pic quality.

I love my m43 OM EM10mk2. It is tiny and has excellent quality considering its size. The EM1X is not tiny, not remotely, but the excuse is that it is for pro severe use. But.. Pros who need a camera for severe use have FF options that have much better image quality than an m43. Once you're shooting at that level you just need the best tool. And will pay for it as it is a business expense. The EM1X does not match up to pro Canikons, no matter how much weather sealing they glue all over it, as it is hampered by that sensor.
So it's kinda interesting who will really buy it. Prosumers will see the price tag and pick much better image quality cameras for less money. Pros will see that sensor and pick better image quality cameras with pro build.
Hi Huss,

I think this is the reason for the EM1X: hand-holdable super telephoto, for the Olympics. To me it looks like Olympus is hoping that Olympics photographers with the EM1X will be able to get photos that others can't, with up to 2,000mm (? - see linked article) equivalent handheld.

The market for such a camera must be very small, even including BIF enthusiasts.

Cheers,
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Old 02-16-2019   #79
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I seem to be alone in thinking this RP is the best-looking Japanese mirrorless camera to date. I also like that it references the Canon P rangefinder with its initials. So, it’s got at least two good things going for it. A compact 50/2.8 or 40/2.8 lens would make a nice portable camera I could carry on my motorbike trips.
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Old 02-16-2019   #80
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I don't know anymore. I looked at provided samples from RP and at full size view it looks awfull. Why fake 26 mp if obviously sensor not supporting it....
Very disappointed.
Can you explain further why you think this sensor is so bad?
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