Old 01-30-2019   #41
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Originally Posted by Hogarth Ferguson View Post

Just to bolster what I said earlier, the scare tactics and survivalist mentality might want to be put on hold, for now.
What can Tetenal UK do if the German Tetenal ceases to exist? I'm not saying that's going to happen, but just as an example, could they continue?
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Old 01-30-2019   #42
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Originally Posted by jawarden View Post
I don't require a specific formulation of C41 chemistry, so stockpiling isn't necessary. I'll be happy to give Photosys a try (for C41 and E6) now that I know they're "local". I see prices but no way to purchase directly from their web site. I'll be happy to give them a call and figure it out when the time comes. It's curious that they're conducting business but apparently not well promoted. If I would have known about them earlier I would have given them a try by now.
Photosys is the company behind most branded kits, such as FPP or Cinestill or Arista or anything like that.
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Old 01-30-2019   #43
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Photosys is the company behind most branded kits, such as FPP or Cinestill or Arista or anything like that.
Ah, very interesting, thanks. And now their lack of web based direct sales makes sense.

(I get all the chemistry I can from FPP so I'm apparently a Photosys customer already.)
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Old 01-30-2019   #44
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I did not realize that either?

Interesting!
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Old 01-30-2019   #45
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Perhaps the title of this thread can be adjusted to align with the latest news - "Tetenal is No More" seemed accurate at first, but not so much now.
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Old 01-30-2019   #46
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
What can Tetenal UK do if the German Tetenal ceases to exist? I'm not saying that's going to happen, but just as an example, could they continue?
I am not 100% versed on the exact inner workings, so take what I'm saying with that in mind. I'd speculate that much like when Target in Canada went under it did not affect Target in the US. It was a venture that did not work out.

If that is the same situation, it would cause no disruptions. However, I'm under the impression, from people more close to the matter than I am, that the management/employees will be buying the Tetenal Germany and beginning production again.

As HHphoto said, though, Tetenal is a large company doing much more than just photo stuff. It is very possible that, given the photo department seems to have been profitable, it is one of the areas that they will want to get up and running most quickly.

There might be reason to worry, but I don't think that time is yet, not at least until everything is fleshed out.

I am not the most articulate person, so while I feel like I understand what is going on as my friend (who has spoken directly with Tetenal), I cannot properly write it down, so apologies.
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Old 01-30-2019   #47
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Kodak HC-110 is a formula owned by Kodak. No one is making it without their permission.
HC110 was first sold in the early 1960's, so if there is a patent, then it's expired. So the formula is not owned by anyone. It does appear to be a secret however, kept by Kodak, in much the same way as Coca Cola is. So anyone can make it without permission, but you just need the recipe.

On the other hand, does anyone really think Kodak will just cease production because one manufacturer goes under? Especially as they release more and more films? Chemicals aren't that hard to mix.
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Old 01-31-2019   #48
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Originally Posted by michaelwj View Post
HC110 was first sold in the early 1960's, so if there is a patent, then it's expired. So the formula is not owned by anyone. It does appear to be a secret however, kept by Kodak, in much the same way as Coca Cola is. So anyone can make it without permission, but you just need the recipe.

On the other hand, does anyone really think Kodak will just cease production because one manufacturer goes under? Especially as they release more and more films? Chemicals aren't that hard to mix.
We are talking about a supply disruption, not a permanent end to production.
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Old 01-31-2019   #49
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We are talking about a supply disruption, not a permanent end to production.
You kinda were.
I doubt they’ll be any disruption.
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Old 01-31-2019   #50
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Even the most casual inspection can demonstrate that Ilford HC is NOT the same as Kodak's HC-110. The viscosity of the concentrate is significantly different.
You are aware that we have in Europe also a different concentrated version of Kodak's HC-110. it needs 1+9 instead of 1+31 for dilution B.
Anyhow, I developed a lot with both and can't see any significant difference in the results.

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Old 01-31-2019   #51
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Worst case scenario, just another reason to use more Pyrocat
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Old 01-31-2019   #52
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You are aware that we have in Europe also a different concentrated version of Kodak's HC-110. it needs 1+9 instead of 1+31 for dilution B.
Anyhow, I developed a lot with both and can't see any significant difference in the results.

Juergen
Regardless, I see major chemical differences in the MSDS disclosures between the two proving that they are not the same formulation as erroneously stated earlier in the thread. Of course the results are similar, but they are not the same. A quick google search over at APUG shows many threads discussing the differences between the two developers by users of each.
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Old 01-31-2019   #53
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I doubt they’ll be any disruption.
That would be nice.
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Let's drop this.
Old 02-01-2019   #54
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Let's drop this.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Very interesting. Why are they not more well known?
The answer to your semi-question is that they are. Most folks recognize the company as the producer of Unicolor products. They have been in the business of DIY home color processing for more than 45 years. Back in the 70-80s, they produced an extensive inventory of color home processing equipment, arguably the best in the business at the time.

This thread is the dumbest exchange of non-information I've witnessed in the year of so I've been a member. The two or three principals here clearly have argued from presumptions rather than known facts. The arguments are over the future existence of a company they know little about and the outcome of which is unknowable at this time. So stop making fools of yourselves and drop it.
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Old 02-01-2019   #55
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The answer to your semi-question is that they are.
As demonstrated earlier in this thread, they are NOT well known. Several in this thread as well as another thread elsewhere have shown clearly that this company is virtually unknown by expressing great surprise. Your assumptions are mistaken.

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Originally Posted by randy stewart View Post
This thread is the dumbest exchange of non-information I've witnessed in the year of so I've been a member. The two or three principals here clearly have argued from presumptions rather than known facts. The arguments are over the future existence of a company they know little about and the outcome of which is unknowable at this time. So stop making fools of yourselves and drop it.
No, I think I'll continue as I see fit. I hope others do as well. You don't get to decide what is posted here.
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Old 02-01-2019   #56
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A VERY fascinating article about Tetenal's current financial situation. A great read that truly introduces the company and its importance to photography, for those who don't know all the details. the conclusion of the article is very positive about Tetenal's possibility to emerge stronger from bankruptcy.

https://petapixel.com/2019/02/01/a-c...rtant-to-fail/
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Old 02-02-2019   #57
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I dropped by the local camera store and found that there's been a minor run on developing chemicals. I snagged the last bottle of HC-110. The store owner said they sold more HC-110 in the past week than in the past 6 months.
I guess the word is out about Tetenal.


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Old 02-03-2019   #58
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
A VERY fascinating article about Tetenal's current financial situation. A great read that truly introduces the company and its importance to photography, for those who don't know all the details. the conclusion of the article is very positive about Tetenal's possibility to emerge stronger from bankruptcy.

https://petapixel.com/2019/02/01/a-c...rtant-to-fail/
Most of the article is correct, but nevertheless there are some mistakes in it. For example concerning E6 chemistry. Most labs are running the standard original 6/7 bath process in their roller transport, dip-and-dunk or ATL machines. Besides Tetenal there are Fujifilm (as the biggest player) and Bellini delivering these chemicals (in bulk) to the labs. So there will be no shortage at all.
Only some of the very new, tiny "hipster-labs" are using the Tetenal 3bath process.
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Old 02-03-2019   #59
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Tetenal has been a very diversified company with many different product groups. Lots of them in the digital imaging business. And mainly these digital product groups have caused severe problems in the past! The production of photo chemistry was not their problem. The decreasing demand in digital broke their neck.
It is exactly that.
The digital products like inkjet inks and papers and distribution of digital-related products have been their major problem. With the current insolvency they can probably get rid of that.
And can continue as New-Tetenal with their profitable photo chemistry production.
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Old 02-03-2019   #60
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Originally Posted by Argentia1 View Post
It is exactly that.
The digital products like inkjet inks and papers and distribution of digital-related products have been their major problem. With the current insolvency they can probably get rid of that.
And can continue as New-Tetenal with their profitable photo chemistry production.
What I don't understand is this: If the digital business for Tetenal was so bad, why did they not close it down earlier? Why ride a poorly performing business down into insolvency? 99% of companies close down poorly performing units to avoid losing money.

Because Tetenal did not make this obvious move, it leads me to believe there is something more structurally wrong with their business. Insolvency is something to be avoided at all costs.
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Old 02-03-2019   #61
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What I don't understand is this: If the digital business for Tetenal was so bad, why did they not close it down earlier? Why ride a poorly performing business down into insolvency? 99% of companies close down poorly performing units to avoid losing money.

Because Tetenal did not make this obvious move, it leads me to believe there is something more structurally wrong with their business. Insolvency is something to be avoided at all costs.
The short answer is because company directors are on the whole pretty arrogant and think they can turn the business around. It happens all the time.
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Old 02-03-2019   #62
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The short answer is because company directors are on the whole pretty arrogant and think they can turn the business around. It happens all the time.
Arrogance may be the explanation, but very few companies the size of Tetenal go insolvent each year. Even fewer emerge from the process.
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Old 02-03-2019   #63
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What I've gathered about all this mess is that Tetenal makes the ink and cartridges for Epson printers. I just put mine in service about three months ago, so now I'm going to have to replace it?

Guess I better order another box set of inks so I don't have to go through the process a little while longer.

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Old 02-04-2019   #64
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You are aware that we have in Europe also a different concentrated version of Kodak's HC-110. it needs 1+9 instead of 1+31 for dilution B.
Anyhow, I developed a lot with both and can't see any significant difference in the results.

Juergen
+1.
I've had the same experience. Results are about being identical, at least I could not tell which is which in a blind test.
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Old 02-04-2019   #65
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What I don't understand is this: If the digital business for Tetenal was so bad, why did they not close it down earlier?
Because the demand in the inkjet business collapsed in an extremely short time period. Short means during only some months. No one could expect such dramatic short time market changes. If such things happens, you simply have very bad luck as a manufacturer.
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Old 02-04-2019   #66
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Who makes Canon's printer inks?
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Old 02-04-2019   #67
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Because the demand in the inkjet business collapsed in an extremely short time period. Short means during only some months. No one could expect such dramatic short time market changes. If such things happens, you simply have very bad luck as a manufacturer.
Are we seeing the collapse of Canon, Epson, or HP's printer business? I've heard nothing about a catastrophic wipe out of printer sales, but then again, I'm not really looking for news like that.
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Old 02-04-2019   #68
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Are we seeing the collapse of Canon, Epson, or HP's printer business? I've heard nothing about a catastrophic wipe out of printer sales, but then again, I'm not really looking for news like that.
In the 00ies lots of market analysts thought inkjet printing is the next hot thing, completely replacing silver-halide printing.
But that has not happened at all. Silver-halide has the best price-performance ratio and has therefore remained the dominant medium for high-volume and low cost printing at labs. Even new silver-halide papers have been introduced.
In inkjet there has not been really significant progress in the last years, and the prices kept staying quite high.
We have to wait and see how this market is going on.
Digital cameras sales decreased again strongly last year. Whether this will have also effects on the printer market, I don't know.....
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Old 02-15-2019   #69
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New Tetenal issued a press release this morning, as follows below.
I have been told it more or less says, “not to worry, there will be no supply disruptions, order book is full, New Tetenal is not an official company yet, but we’re on it, and will likely be in control by end of March.”

But, it’s in German and the only German I know is schnitzle and Blaupunkt, so maybe a better educated or more cosmopolitan person can read this and verify:

Norderstedt, 14. Februar 2019

NEW TETENAL – Mitarbeiterinitiative hat Angebot zum Kauf der Formelsammlung, der Marke und der Produktionsmittel ihres ehemaligen Arbeitgebers abgegeben.
Nach dem Bekanntwerden der Liquidation der Tetenal Europe GmbH und der darauf als Reaktion gegründeten Mitarbeiterinitiative zur Rettung der analogen Photo-Chemie hat das Team um Stefania Grimme, Carsten Gehring, Burkhardt Müller und Norbert Köster-Beestermöller in den letzten Wochen
eine überwältigende Anzahl positiver Rückmeldungen von ehemaligen Mitarbeitern, Enthusiasten der analogen Photografie aus aller Welt, aber auch von gewerblichen Anwendern und Kunden der insolventen TETENAL Europe GmbH erhalten. „Die vielen guten Wünsche motivieren uns in unserer
Absicht mit einer NEW TETENAL in die Zukunft zu gehen“, so Stefania Grimme.
Auch von Partnern aus der Industrie - von Kalifornien im Westen bis Japan im Osten - wird weltweit Unterstützung signalisiert, um die NEW TETENAL als innovativen und zuverlässigen Partner in Deutschland für die Welt zu etablieren. Zahlreiche Gespräche, um die zukünftige Zusammenarbeit zu
konkretisieren, wurden vereinbart.

Der Insolvenzverwalter, Dr. Sven-Holger Undritz, zeigte sich heute erfreut, das Angebot des Gründerteams in den Kanzleiräumen der White & Case in Hamburg entgegen zu nehmen. Die Anwaltsteams des Insolvenzverwalters und des Gründerteams haben heute in einer gemeinsamen Sitzung den Fahrplan für die weiteren Schritte festgelegt.

An diesem entscheidenden Punkt konkretisiert sich nun die Gründung und Aufnahme der Geschäftstätigkeit der NEW TETENAL. Im Anschluss an die geplante Ausproduktion durch die insolvente TETENAL soll ab dem 1. April 2019 der operative Betrieb der neuen Gesellschaft starten.

„Bereits ab Anfang März wird es für Kunden und Kooperationspartner der NEW TETENAL möglich sein, Aufträge zu erteilen, die eine Voraussetzung für einen Produktionsstart in dem neuen Start-Up Unternehmen ab 1. April sind“, erläutern Carsten Gehring und Burkhardt Müller.

„Für was steht die NEW TETENAL?“ - ist eine häufig gestellte Frage an das Management-Team der Initiative. „Wir wissen, wo wir herkommen und verstehen die Verantwortung für 172 Jahre Photo- Geschichte.

Wir werden - gemeinsam mit der weltweiten Photo-Community und den verbliebenen Schlüsselpartnern in der analogen Photo-Industrie - bewährte Produkte wieder auflegen, die Versorgung der Film- und Photostudios sicherstellen und völlig neue Geschäftsmodelle, Produkte und
Services für die Zukunft entwickeln.“, merkt Burkhardt Müller an.

„Die Versorgung der Auslandstöchter
wird auch unter NEW TETENAL unterbrechungsfrei fortgesetzt“, ergänzt Norbert Köster-
Beestermöller.
Ansprechpartner NEW TETENAL:
• Herr Carsten Gehring (Vertrieb): [email protected]
• Herr Norbert Köster-Beestermöller (Vertrieb): [email protected]
new-tetenal.
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Old 02-15-2019   #70
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If they can afford White and Case they must have some backing!

Excellent news.
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Old 02-15-2019   #71
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New Tetenal issued a press release this morning, as follows below.
I have been told it more or less says, “not to worry, there will be no supply disruptions, order book is full, New Tetenal is not an official company yet, but we’re on it, and will likely be in control by end of March.”
Bankruptcy sure moves a lot faster in Germany than in the US.
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Old 02-15-2019   #72
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Bankruptcy sure moves a lot faster in Germany than in the US.
Unless you're General Motors.
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Old 02-16-2019   #73
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Unless you're General Motors.
Well, the US government stepped in and made that move a lot faster than it would normally had.
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Old 02-16-2019   #74
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New Tetenal issued a press release this morning, as follows below.
I have been told it more or less says, “not to worry, there will be no supply disruptions, order book is full, New Tetenal is not an official company yet, but we’re on it, and will likely be in control by end of March.”
That is correct, Larry.
The photo chemistry production shall be bought by the former leading stuff and the employees / workers. It looks more like an "employee buy out", and not so much a management buy out. That is very good in my opinion. The enterprise is supported by the whole team.

If this will be successful, it is really the best case scenario:
- New Tetenal remains independent
- full photo chemistry production continues
- they get rid of all the non-profitable digital product programmes and concentrate completely on the profitable film based products.
Perfect situation for us film shooters and the film revival.

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But, it’s in German and the only German I know is schnitzle and Blaupunkt, so maybe a better educated or more cosmopolitan person can read this and verify:
It is "Schnitzel" and it's very delicious .

Cheers, Jan
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Old 02-16-2019   #75
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“It is "Schnitzel" and it's very delicious .

Cheers, Jan”

My knowledge of German just reduced by half
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Old 02-16-2019   #76
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That is the wrong way to look at it Larry. Your knowledge of German is now twice as large as it used to be.
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Old 02-16-2019   #77
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- they get rid of all the non-profitable digital product programmes and concentrate completely on the profitable film based products.
Perfect situation for us film shooters and the film revival.
Why didn't Tetenal do this before going insolvent? Millions upon millions of euros could have been saved. This makes no sense whatsoever.
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Old 02-16-2019   #78
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That is the wrong way to look at it Larry. Your knowledge of German is now twice as large as it used to be.
I guess that’s right, thanks!

But, now I’m wondering why it is spaetzle instead of spaetzel.
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Old 02-16-2019   #79
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I guess that’s right, thanks!

But, now I’m wondering why it is spaetzle instead of spaetzel.
If you really want to know, ...le is a diminutive ending in southwestern dialects and ...el is an ending that, I think, indicates a verb has been turned into a noun.
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Old 02-16-2019   #80
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Why didnt Tetenal do this before going insolvent?
It has been explained in this thread several times. Look above.
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