Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Leicas and other Leica Mount Cameras > Leica Screw Mount Copies

Leica Screw Mount Copies Classic Leica Copy forum as listed in the book 300 Leica Copies, including but not limited to Nicca, Leotax, Honor, Canon etc. At one time there was a major part of the camera industry just trying to make a lower cost copy/dirivitive of the original Leica.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Nikkor 5cm f2 collapsible LTM
Old 01-29-2019   #1
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Nikkor 5cm f2 collapsible LTM

I saw one of these for the first time the other day. I know it is extremely rare, but does anyone have an opinion on this lens? How does it compare to the collapsible Summicron?

The rigid version (of the Nikkor) gets good reviews, as does of course the rigid Summicron. I just wonder if Nikon had the same issues as Leitz with the collapsible models being slightly less "good" as the rigid models.

Not much on the interwebs about the Nikkor collapsible, other than "rare". And, expensive!
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #2
rfaspen
Registered User
 
rfaspen's Avatar
 
rfaspen is offline
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Corvallis, OR
Posts: 1,687
Are you thinking of acquiring this? Cool!

I know nothing about that lens, but I wouldn't mind seeing one, and images it produces.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #3
Livesteamer
Registered User
 
Livesteamer is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winston Salem North Carolina
Posts: 1,418
Goamules is the member to talk to. He has one and has posted images from it. I have one but have not used it a lot. It's a fine lens but the later Nikkors are probably a bit better with more advanced coatings. I got mine in a camera lot for $200 on a mioj Nicca. The number code on the back dates it to December 1948. Joe
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #4
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,036
Mine is from late 1948 with a curious serial number.



Rendering is typical Sonnar (which I love) but I'm assuming the coatings are somewhat inferior to later rigid Nikkors.

More in this thread.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #5
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,876
I only saw a Nikkor f2 50mm collapsible LTM lens in 1978 when I first spotted a Leica IIIg with a non collapsible 50 mil Summicron in a store window case.

Next day I came back to buy the IIIg but someone else snagged the collapsible Nikkor and the even rarer non collapsible LTM Summicron.

I still bought the IIIg but with a 35mm Summaron lens.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #6
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
Mine is from late 1948 with a curious serial number.



Rendering is typical Sonnar (which I love) but I'm assuming the coatings are somewhat inferior to later rigid Nikkors.

More in this thread.
Thatís an awesome serial number!
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #7
kermaier
Registered User
 
kermaier's Avatar
 
kermaier is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 1,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldwino View Post
Thatís an awesome serial number!
I would guess that 8111000 means 1948, November, number 1000 off the line.
__________________
M9-P, Fuji X100
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #8
lxmike
Barnack fan
 
lxmike's Avatar
 
lxmike is offline
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Co Durham NE England
Age: 54
Posts: 3,308
i never knew there was a collapsible version, you learn new things every day on this forum
__________________
Currently loaded: Leica, MDa, IIIg and Bronica ERTS.

Glass currently in regular use: Voigtlander 15mm 4.5 Helliar, 35mm Summaron.

Soon to arrive: a boat load of HP5
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #9
Corran
Registered User
 
Corran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,323
I have one, as well as the even rarer collapsible Nikkor 5cm f/3.5 (Elmar clone).

The 50mm f/2 collapsible from what I've seen shoots just the same as the normal rigid lens. Sample variation itself is probably more likely than differences between versions.

However the coatings are different. Both my collapsible and rigid Nikkors are "Tokyo" models. Don't forget, the rigid also focuses closer, and can be modified to couple with the RF focused very close.

For a user, the rigid is probably the better buy. I lucked out with the collapsible - found it on eBay "BIN" for $60 so jumped on it. Not sure what it is "worth" but a lot more than that I figure.

I don't have great notes so I can't pull up anything I've shot with mine at the moment. I haven't used mine much, compared to my 5cm f/3.5 or a Summitar.

PS: here's a thread about these:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=148887
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #10
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,876
The earliest postwar Nicca/ Tower cameras of the late 1940s to the very early 1950s were sold with the collapsible Nikkor 50mm f2 lens, well at least the ones exported to the USA.

The Sears catalogue of that time period show their Tower brand precision 35mm camera with that Nikkor lens.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #11
gb hill
Registered User
 
gb hill's Avatar
 
gb hill is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: North Carolina
Age: 60
Posts: 5,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livesteamer View Post
Goamules is the member to talk to. He has one and has posted images from it. I have one but have not used it a lot. It's a fine lens but the later Nikkors are probably a bit better with more advanced coatings. I got mine in a camera lot for $200 on a mioj Nicca. The number code on the back dates it to December 1948. Joe
Hey Joe. Hope you are well. I need to come back down your way to check that out as well as see how the bamboo is faring in this winter weather.
__________________
Greg
flickr
Bessa R & L
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #12
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by kermaier View Post
I would guess that 8111000 means 1948, November, number 1000 off the line.
They actually date-stamped them on the back side of the mounting flange. The one I saw had a 906 number, which I gather means 1949, June.
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #13
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
I have one, as well as the even rarer collapsible Nikkor 5cm f/3.5 (Elmar clone).

The 50mm f/2 collapsible from what I've seen shoots just the same as the normal rigid lens. Sample variation itself is probably more likely than differences between versions.

However the coatings are different. Both my collapsible and rigid Nikkors are "Tokyo" models. Don't forget, the rigid also focuses closer, and can be modified to couple with the RF focused very close.

For a user, the rigid is probably the better buy. I lucked out with the collapsible - found it on eBay "BIN" for $60 so jumped on it. Not sure what it is "worth" but a lot more than that I figure.

I don't have great notes so I can't pull up anything I've shot with mine at the moment. I haven't used mine much, compared to my 5cm f/3.5 or a Summitar.

PS: here's a thread about these:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=148887
You're probably right with regard to the rigid being the way to go. However, I find myself strangely drawn to collapsible lenses. I've got a nice uncoated Elmar nickel 5cm, and a Konica 50/2.4 that was put out in 1999 (?). That one's a planar design, so very sharp. I'm missing a collapsible sonnar, and as I doubt I'll ever see a CZ Jena (that's not faked)...

Sadly, these collapsible Nikkors are no longer cheap!
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #14
Livesteamer
Registered User
 
Livesteamer is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winston Salem North Carolina
Posts: 1,418
Hey Greg. Good to hear from you. I hope you and your wife are well, stop by anytime you are in the area.

My Nikkor has a number on the back #812426. Mr. Rotoloni was kind enough to respond to an e mail and tell me that it dated the lens to December 1948. The serial number is 806107. I sent it to Don Goldberg for a service and it's now nice and clean but it does not click into a locked position as my other collapsible lens's do. Watch e bay for early Nicca cameras and you might get lucky. Joe
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #15
Corran
Registered User
 
Corran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,323
I looked and couldn't find a recent sale on eBay. I am unsure what one would go for these days. There's a couple cameras+lenses available on eBay for over $1k but I think those have been there for years. I would keep an eye out on eBay if you really want one, for a BIN sale. I figure mine was listed cheaply because they looked up sales of similar lenses, but of course saw mostly the rigid one selling for not much and so listed it similarly. You never know.

I find myself grabbing the f/3.5 collapsible more often, as the f/2 only "collapses" maybe a half inch, while the Elmar clone goes into the body almost completely. Not as much as a real Elmar though, because the aperture control is around the barrel instead of on the front, interestingly. Just shot a roll with that lens and the negatives are hanging to dry...
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-29-2019   #16
gb hill
Registered User
 
gb hill's Avatar
 
gb hill is offline
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: North Carolina
Age: 60
Posts: 5,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livesteamer View Post
Hey Greg. Good to hear from you. I hope you and your wife are well, stop by anytime you are in the area.

My Nikkor has a number on the back #812426. Mr. Rotoloni was kind enough to respond to an e mail and tell me that it dated the lens to December 1948. The serial number is 806107. I sent it to Don Goldberg for a service and it's now nice and clean but it does not click into a locked position as my other collapsible lens's do. Watch e bay for early Nicca cameras and you might get lucky. Joe
I sure will. The wife hasn’t been too well for the last year & a half so I’ve been her care taker. I’ll not bore you with her problems here but I have thought about you & will get down your way one weekend. I need to get back down to Old Salem to do a walk-a-round. It’s been quite awhile.
__________________
Greg
flickr
Bessa R & L
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #17
pyeh
Registered User
 
pyeh is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Taylor Square
Age: 59
Posts: 605
Deleted post. Made a mistake.
__________________
Peter
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #18
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldwino View Post
They actually date-stamped them on the back side of the mounting flange. The one I saw had a 906 number, which I gather means 1949, June.
Mine is marked 906658 on the lens mount. The serials starting 811 were built from Nov. '48 thru 1949 according to jonmanjiro's post in the other thread.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #19
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
Mine is marked 906658. The serials starting 811 were built from Nov. '48 thru 1949 according to jonmanjiro's post in the other thread.
And if my research is correct, those late lenses had all Japanese glass and the final design formulation. The earlier produced lenses had some german glass in there as well.
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #20
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,036
That info is at the end of the other thread.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #21
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldwino View Post
You're probably right with regard to the rigid being the way to go. However, I find myself strangely drawn to collapsible lenses. I've got a nice uncoated Elmar nickel 5cm, and a Konica 50/2.4 that was put out in 1999 (?). That one's a planar design, so very sharp. I'm missing a collapsible sonnar, and as I doubt I'll ever see a CZ Jena (that's not faked)...

Sadly, these collapsible Nikkors are no longer cheap!
I too like the collapsibles. I had a Fuji Cristar a while back, which is pretty rare, probably rarer than the Nikkor. Seemed to render exactly like a Summitar.

Currently my LTM collapsibles include the Nikkor, Summitar (uncoated), Summicron (early radioactive) and Elmar. Would like to get a collapsible Canon Serenar...and a Nikkor 50/3.5, but would need to be really lucky to nab one of those.

Here is a thread listing a bunch of other rare 50/2 collapsibles in Leica screw mount:

https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...postid=2735820
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #22
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post

Here is a thread listing a bunch of other rare 50/2 collapsibles in Leica screw mount:

https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...postid=2735820
I wish I hadn't seen that...
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #23
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,816
I'm still around as is my collapsible! I love it.

  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #24
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,923
Very cool. Now I need to find a clean one for myself (and for my IIIf).
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #25
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,816
I found mine on an early Made in Occupied Japan Tower Type 3.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #26
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,923
Thanks, Garrett. I am looking .................................................. ........
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #27
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldwino View Post
They actually date-stamped them on the back side of the mounting flange. The one I saw had a 906 number, which I gather means 1949, June.
I never noticed it but just checked mine, it has a 906xxxxx number on the mounting surface too.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-30-2019   #28
David Murphy
Registered User
 
David Murphy's Avatar
 
David Murphy is offline
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: California
Age: 63
Posts: 2,463
I have a Cristar, nice images, but not to the level of the collapsible Leica Summicron or even the Summitar IMO. Like the Nikkor Collapsible discussed in this thread, the Cristar is a good example of the quality metric acheived by early post-war Japanese camera industry.

I have also owned and used the collapsible Canon Serenar 50/3.5. They are not too expensive or rare, and yield fine images IMO - a pleasing lens to use.

I recently picked up a very nice a Collapsible Topcor 50/3.5, not to be confused with Simlar 50/3.5, although they are probably the same lens, just different markings. The Simlar branded version is much more common and occurs in a few different variations (I own one of these too). I will dutifilly report on the Topcor when I get some test shots processed!

I find hard not to fall in love with collapsible lenses as one who likes collecting and shooting with vintage screw mount. Like many of you I am sure, I was first intrigued by the high quality of Elmar images. In use, collapsible primes really manifest the practical utility and high quality of screw mount film camera systems (most at least).


Quote:
Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
I too like the collapsibles. I had a Fuji Cristar a while back, which is pretty rare, probably rarer than the Nikkor. Seemed to render exactly like a Summitar.

Currently my LTM collapsibles include the Nikkor, Summitar (uncoated), Summicron (early radioactive) and Elmar. Would like to get a collapsible Canon Serenar...and a Nikkor 50/3.5, but would need to be really lucky to nab one of those.

Here is a thread listing a bunch of other rare 50/2 collapsibles in Leica screw mount:

https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...postid=2735820
__________________
Canon L1, Leotax S, Bessa R2C, Konica Autoreflex, Canon FX, Pentax Spotmatic, Minolta SRT-101, Nikon F, Exakta VX, Miranda Automex II, Leotax K3, Yashica Mat LM, Leotax S, Pen FT, Rollei 35S, Ricoh Singlex TLS, Kowa Six, Pentax K1000, Canonflex, Praktina, Voigtlander R2C

http://legacycamera.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-31-2019   #29
richardHaw
junk scavenger
 
richardHaw's Avatar
 
richardHaw is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 417
i have one. performs exactly the same as the rest of its variants

i will write an overhaul article for that in the near future on my blog

i have overhauled all versions and i love the engineering of the rigid LTM the most.

performance is typical sonnar but contrast is higher off-the-bat.
__________________
Take me down to the Parallax City
Where the viewfinder's tiny
And the framing is tricky
http://www.richardhaw.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-09-2019   #30
Livesteamer
Registered User
 
Livesteamer is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winston Salem North Carolina
Posts: 1,418
One of these lenses just showed up on eBay. Search Nicca. It's on a clean but non working Nicca for $400 plus a little shipping. Someone buy it, I don't need another! Joe (No connection with seller.)
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-09-2019   #31
Livesteamer
Registered User
 
Livesteamer is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winston Salem North Carolina
Posts: 1,418
The lens listed above was sold in less than an hour. Anyone here get it? Joe
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2019   #32
johannielscom
Ich bin ein Barnacker
 
johannielscom's Avatar
 
johannielscom is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Universitas Terre Threntiae
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livesteamer View Post
The lens listed above was sold in less than an hour. Anyone here get it? Joe
Not me.

It probably was a US-only sale, I could not even get it to show and I sure tried...
__________________
Gegroet,
Johan Niels

I write vintage gear reviews on www.johanniels.com |

flickr | instagram |
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2019   #33
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
I didn’t get that recent one, but I did find a nice one and I did buy it. Running a roll of film now to test.
Lens is in good shape, so no immediate need to send it out for a CLA.
Nice, tiny, well made little Sonnar.
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2019   #34
Brian Legge
Registered User
 
Brian Legge is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,685
Oof. I just missed this. I saw the comment about it, checked ebay and it had just sold.
__________________
Shooting whatever I can get my hands on.
Recent Work
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-12-2019   #35
furcafe
Registered User
 
furcafe's Avatar
 
furcafe is offline
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, DC, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 4,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldwino View Post
I saw one of these for the first time the other day. I know it is extremely rare, but does anyone have an opinion on this lens? How does it compare to the collapsible Summicron?

The rigid version (of the Nikkor) gets good reviews, as does of course the rigid Summicron. I just wonder if Nikon had the same issues as Leitz with the collapsible models being slightly less "good" as the rigid models.

Not much on the interwebs about the Nikkor collapsible, other than "rare". And, expensive!
I don't think the collapsible 5cm/2 Nikkor-H is optically worse than the rigid models (other than the structural/alignment weakness inherent to all collapsible lenses that are extended & collapsed too often), but they may been made w/an earlier, softer, version of coating, as all the examples I've seen, including my own, have had their fair share of cleaning marks/scratches. They also do not have the same firm positive lock when extended like some of the 1950s collapsible Leitz lenses.

Performance-wise, I think they're comparable to coated versions of the collapsible 5cm/2 Sonnars for the Contax II/III, so very good indeed. Whether you would prefer them to the collapsible Summicron will depend on how you feel about Sonnars v. Summicrons.
__________________
Five a Second. Chicago's Bell & Howell Co. (cameras) announced that it would put on sale this fall the world's most expensive still camera. Its "Foton" will take five 35-mm. pictures a second, sell for $700. Bell & Howell, which has found that "families of both low and high incomes now spend over $550" for movie equipment, hopes to sell 20,000 Fotons a year.
--Facts And Figures, Time magazine, Monday, October 4, 1948
My Photoblog

My Flickr stream

My RFF Gallery

My Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-12-2019   #36
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,036
My copy has a positive lock, feels very similar to my Summicron, but this was after sending it to DAG. He firmed it up for $25. It didn't want to lock in place when extended.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-13-2019   #37
oldwino
Registered User
 
oldwino is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 142
So in the interest showing some examples of this lens, here are a few shots just taken around the house on a stormy, snowy, blustery day. The lens seems very sharp (where it needs to be sharp), and shows a pretty typical sonnar look. These were shot between f2 and f4.
My lens is in very good shape optically, but the filter ring is slightly tweaked, so I think it will have to visit DAG to straighten that out.
Thank you to everyone's contributions in this thread. You all cost me a lot of money...

Hoping for some nicer weather so I can get out and shoot more with it!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Corner1.jpg (92.7 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Outdoor Dining1.jpg (99.4 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Roll Out The Barrels1.jpg (99.4 KB, 8 views)
__________________
wandering the Earth with an Leica I conv, M2, M-D, a bunch of old lenses, and occasionally a Mamiya-Six or Isolette III.

beckmeyerphotographs.format.com
current stuff https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Last edited by oldwino : 02-13-2019 at 15:04. Reason: spelling error
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-13-2019   #38
richardHaw
junk scavenger
 
richardHaw's Avatar
 
richardHaw is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 417
just overhauled mine last week...felt like a hybrid Summar and Sonnar from the pre-war years in terms of construction

probably the best-engineered Nikkor-H if you ask me.
__________________
Take me down to the Parallax City
Where the viewfinder's tiny
And the framing is tricky
http://www.richardhaw.com
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:52.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.