Old 01-14-2019   #41
Richard G
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I agree the M6 is a great camera, and I like the comment that without the MP currently available the M6 would be even more expensive. It was my main camera when my children were small and it is perfect with the compact 35 Summicron. I used it last weekend and the meter is very good. Having used manual a lot with the digital Ms I found I was second guessing the meter a lot, depending on the scene. Ten years ago I got into incident metering more. Some scenes I got to thinking I better use the hand-held light meter, rather than trust the matched M6 VF red diode triangles. Weird thing is, the answer to that is mostly no. If you just slavishly balanced those two little triangles you could shoot twenty rolls without a bad exposure. It's probably why the M7 is so good. Still might get one of those....
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Old 01-14-2019   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colker View Post
You made a comparison. I made another. My point is clear.
We're not disagreeing then —— my point is also clear I think

I'm saying, a good suit can be worn three, four or even more decades. Heck, I'm even sometimes wearing my grandfather's winter coat made before WWII, and my daughters love some gowns made for their great-grandmother during the 1920s!

It's «sustainability» what I'm talking about. Yes, sustainable products cost more at the point of time you purchase them, than «ephemeral» (crappy «hi-tech» usually) products. But in the end, often after the first decade already, the sustainable products have been a lot cheaper than the obsolescent product that you were forced to replace meanwhile.
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Old 01-14-2019   #43
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My 250$ paid for new EOS is measuring light at any time.
Nikkormat - move shutter level a little and it measures.

True mechanical Leica with handheld meter are less worse. Just more space. But I could measure light every time it changes. Without wasting frame.
In my rangefinder photography I could measure light ten times during one hour in ten different places and take one picture. I measure every time light changes if I care for exposure. In advance. Because, I'm finding it too slow to measure the light by TTL manual metering, frame and focus. I sometimes have only few seconds to focus and frame.
Clunking with > 0 <, just no time for this.

Don't know how bad it is with M6, MP, but Bessa R would often get fooled and R2M just keeps on blinking something like +2, until I get exposure right by S16.
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Old 01-15-2019   #44
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But, magic or no magic, it is also a better camera than a Leica M7 IMO (I've owned both)...
Fifteen or so years ago, when I shot rangefinders exclusively, I tested a ZI at a store. I owned an M7 and MP at the time, but something about the rangefinder patch of the ZI was disconcerting. Your eye had to be centered properly or ... I forget. But what great eye relief. Anyway, all my Leica rangefinders are gone except an M3 and dual range Summicron. More of an SLR guy now, and have been for many years.
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Old 01-15-2019   #45
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I´ve been around and the cult of camera gear is nonsense.
So true. But you have to "been around," as you say, to reach that conclusion. Some people never get out of their own neighborhood.
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Old 01-15-2019   #46
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Over the last 15 years, Leica new film cameras and lenses have probably increased in price by 80-100%. When I purchased an MP when they initially came out in circa 2003 it cost $2595 US (and I thought that was boatload). What are they now -- $4500+? So as the price of new goes up, it drags the used prices too. But it's interesting that digital Ms haven't dented more the demand for film Ms.
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Old 01-15-2019   #47
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the price of the Leica R9 has also skyrocketed. Going rate is now over $1200. I paid 1/2 that less than a year ago. R8 has not been affected so. Yet.
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Old 01-15-2019   #48
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Over the last 15 years, Leica new film cameras and lenses have probably increased in price by 80-100%. When I purchased an MP when they initially came out in circa 2003 it cost $2595 US (and I thought that was boatload). What are they now -- $4500+? So as the price of new goes up, it drags the used prices too. But it's interesting that digital Ms haven't dented more the demand for film Ms.
Leica prices are the kingdom of excess.

I like the cameras. They exude style.. but the cult of camera gear hides mediocrity in picture taking.
If you have to talk about the bokeh then the image svcks.
Photographer´s style is way more interesting than camera style.
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Old 01-15-2019   #49
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We need new rangefinders. New SLRs. Prices for used camera gear has gone stupid.
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Old 01-15-2019   #50
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We need new rangefinders. New SLRs. Prices for used camera gear has gone stupid.
No we don't. There are thousands of M2,M3,M4,M5 etc, Nikon F & Canon Fs out there. Lots are being used. Who's going to buy the 'new' overpriced film cameras? More people who collect cameras as a hobby & drool over the next 50mm f 1.0 ?
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Old 01-15-2019   #51
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Prices for used camera gear has gone stupid.
No, you just have to cherry-pick the bargains that are available. Leicas are stupidly expensive, but mainstream SLRs like the Canon AE-1 and Nikon FG or their 1980s AF equivalents can be had for a fraction of their selling price. In 1996 I paid over a thousand dollars for my Nikon N90S and today I can buy lightly-used ones for $50.
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Old 01-15-2019   #52
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Just bought a like new Nikon ZoomTouch 800 for $15 shipped. This was Nikon’s best p&s camera with ED glass, multi point phase focus etc. Was $500 in 1992.
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Old 01-15-2019   #53
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Just bought a like new Nikon Autozoom 800 for
$15 shipped. This was Nikon’s best p&s camera with ED glass, multi point phase focus etc. Was $500 in 1992.
Awesome. Instead of paying 1500 dollars for an obvious Contax T2.
Congrats ..
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Old 01-15-2019   #54
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No, you just have to cherry-pick the bargains that are available. Leicas are stupidly expensive, but mainstream SLRs like the Canon AE-1 and Nikon FG or their 1980s AF equivalents can be had for a fraction of their selling price. In 1996 I paid over a thousand dollars for my Nikon N90S and today I can buy lightly-used ones for $50.
You are right.. right now i am enamored w/ rangefinders and the options are dim.

Maybe a Canon 7.

It´s ludicrous to pay 1000 dollars for a Zeiss ZM lens when a Nikon 50mm 1.4 will cost me 150 dollars.

Anyway..
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Old 01-15-2019   #55
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No we don't. There are thousands of M2,M3,M4,M5 etc, Nikon F & Canon Fs out there. Lots are being used. Who's going to buy the 'new' overpriced film cameras? More people who collect cameras as a hobby & drool over the next 50mm f 1.0 ?
Overpriced is an Xpan.

Cosina should restart selling their RFs.
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Old 01-15-2019   #56
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I am shocked by how cheap a lot of film gear is now. With everyone chasing Contax T3's or whatever, I recently bought a very tidy Canon F1n for a hundred dollars, plus shipping. Seems almost unused. Also someone sent me a Canon P free as a rear lens cap when I bought a lens. I don't think anyone can say that decent film gear is going to break the bank in this day and age.
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Not quite getting it
Old 01-15-2019   #57
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Not quite getting it

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Originally Posted by steveyork View Post
something about the rangefinder patch of the ZI was disconcerting. Your eye had to be centered properly or ... I forget. But what great eye relief.
That's true. It doesn't take long to adjust though. The rangefinder patch disappears when your eye moves off center precisely because the eye piece is large and has great eye relief. Your eye can't move off center very far with an M7 because the eye piece is a lot smaller.
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Old 01-15-2019   #58
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This is like the Contax G series. The G2 is better than the G1, but they both have very narrow exit pupils. So if you pull up the camera to your eye quickly, the eye may be off-center very slightly, and the viewfinder can literally black out. With practice it becomes second nature to align things so this doesn't happen, but it can be disconcerting/problematic if you're used to other cameras.

People that haven't experience this with cameras, might be familiar with it when using some binoculars with narrow exit pupils.
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Old 01-15-2019   #59
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Just bought a like new Nikon ZoomTouch 800 for $15 shipped. This was Nikon's best p&s camera with ED glass, multi point phase focus etc. Was $500 in 1992.
Just read the specs on this beast.
17.6oz/499grams. Yikes, that is a P&S brick!

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Old 01-15-2019   #60
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The other thing about the ZI ZM rangefinder patch is that it doesn't follow the framelines when thy correct for parallax. The patch stays centre in the viewfinder. The Bessas do this too. It slightly alters my focus-and-recompose perception.

Much as I like these Cosina-made rangefinders I think the immobile patch shows a lack of sophistication compared to M's.
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Old 01-15-2019   #61
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A few years back I bought a MP thinking that it was the ultimate Leica. It was very nice but I had to sell my M6 in order to buy the MP. After shooting with the MP for awhile I thought that I should just have kept my M6 since it was pretty much did the same thing. I was sorry that I had made that switch. It was a learning experience. I still have several Leicas but I mostly shoot digital now. - jim
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Old 01-15-2019   #62
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A few years back I bought a MP thinking that it was the ultimate Leica. It was very nice but I had to sell my M6 in order to buy the MP. After shooting with the MP for awhile I thought that I should just have kept my M6 since it was pretty much did the same thing. I was sorry that I had made that switch. It was a learning experience. I still have several Leicas but I mostly shoot digital now. - jim
I feel the same way about the Nikon FE2 and FM3a. One is about $120, the other $600. To me they are the same thing when you actually use them.
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Old 01-15-2019   #63
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Just read the specs on this beast.
17.6oz/499grams. Yikes, that is a P&S brick!

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A brick? That's just a wee pebble compared to my Rollei QZ35W P&S @ 670gms.
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Old 01-16-2019   #64
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Well, it is supply and demand, stupid or not: in 2009, when I bought my ZI demand must have been low since it was offered at a discounted price: some $ 1,950 for the camera + the 1.5/50 + hood. The only thing I don't like about the camera is that it can be hard to read the meter output in the viewfinder under bright light conditions.
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Old 01-16-2019   #65
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I feel the same way about the Nikon FE2 and FM3a. One is about $120, the other $600. To me they are the same thing when you actually use them.
Never shot the FE. Have one that was given me broken. I did shoot a lot w/ the FM. I would leave the F3 at home and use the FM full time.

It´s the uncomplicated camera. And light. Nikon realized the early SLR was all some photographers wanted and made the FM series. They made it small, light w/ a behind the lens meter. Anything else gets in the way.
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Old 01-16-2019   #66
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Would love to see a review of the Nikon Huss. Looks like an interesting camera.
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Old 01-16-2019   #67
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The other thing about the ZI ZM rangefinder patch is that it doesn't follow the framelines when thy correct for parallax. The patch stays centre in the viewfinder. The Bessas do this too. It slightly alters my focus-and-recompose perception.

Much as I like these Cosina-made rangefinders I think the immobile patch shows a lack of sophistication compared to M's.
This adds a lot of complication and likely cost, I can see why they skipped it.

The Contax G series does the same thing, the viewfinder adjusts for parallax but the focus point stays in the same place.
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Old 01-16-2019   #68
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I sold my 20-year old M6 two years ago — and now greatly regret it. I was sort of out of photography at the time, but have since gotten back into it. Prices these days definitely seem to be twice what I sold mine for (sadly).

I think there's been an uptick in hipster demand for film cameras (anecdotally), and the M6 is one of the most useable M's (due to the meter). I keep seeing bearded men in their 20's walking around NYC with film cameras. This is the type of person who bought mine, and probably they are fueling the price increase. (The other day I walked into deli and two college types were fondling their screw mount Leicas and an M4.) I'm glad there's a new generation learning about film and manual cameras, though, however small the numbers might actually be.
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Old 01-16-2019   #69
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Hmmm,, it used to be FAST meaning Focus, Aperture, Shutter and Take but now it just seems to be Fondle...

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Old 01-16-2019   #70
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Nothing wrong with fondling. that means the mfgs did it right and made the gear desirable and enjoyable to use. the cameras i fondle the most are the ones i use the most. it’s y i got rid of stuff like my Canon P and Bessa R3a - I just did not find them enjoyable to use compared to Leicas and thus did not use them. Interestingly price does not seem to determine this. I really enjoy using gear like my Zorki 4 Pinkoktober ,Agfa Optima 1535 and Nikonos V.
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Old 01-16-2019   #71
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Leica are expensive but they have a strong used market. Purchase carefully and you can probably make a little money if you sell later. When I largely got out of rangefinders in circa 2012, I made money on just about everything that I had purchased new some ten or so years earlier. So yes, a big wad of cash as an up front investment, but you can mostly get it back if you don't want the stuff.
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Old 01-16-2019   #72
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I bought my M6 circa 1996 for around $2500 —*a hefty sum back then (and now) which took me a while to earn. When I sold it for about a third that price I thought that wasn't bad, considering it was 20 years old and film seemed to be on the way out. Now I feel dumb for selling it; film isn't dead, and now I realize how attached I was to that camera, since it went traveling with me on many adventures. Oh well.

I've been shooting with my beat-up M3 and two Kiev's lately, so all is well. My screw-mounts (IIIC and IIIF) are both troubled, so they'll just have to be fondled.
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Old 01-16-2019   #73
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I have to agree with your comments @colker

My F5 was cheap. I watched the prices drop off a cliff, and now I own one and use it more than any other camera I have EVER used including those Leicas.

It's heavy, kind of ugly, and obnoxious but at the same time it feels great to hold while being virtually indestructible. Not the coolest thing to tote around for insta pics of yourself with a camera... The M6 is much prettier!
You're right. The F4 is the coolest thing to tote around for selfies!

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Old 01-16-2019   #74
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The other thing about the ZI ZM rangefinder patch is that it doesn't follow the framelines when thy correct for parallax. The patch stays centre in the viewfinder. The Bessas do this too. It slightly alters my focus-and-recompose perception.

Much as I like these Cosina-made rangefinders I think the immobile patch shows a lack of sophistication compared to M's.
Chuckle

Typical internet. Much ado about nothing much. It always seems to make people feel better if they can identify something that they think is a problem, even though it really isn't.

Shoot the Zeiss Ikon for awhile and you forget all about this. After a very little while I found that my rangefinder patch was always exactly where I expected to find it. It still is.
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Old 01-16-2019   #75
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Hmmm,, it used to be FAST meaning Focus, Aperture, Shutter and Take but now it just seems to be Fondle...

Regards, David
Gawd. That goes back a year or two. Haven't heard that in practically forever.
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Old 01-16-2019   #76
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Fifteen or so years ago, when I shot rangefinders exclusively, I tested a ZI at a store. I owned an M7 and MP at the time, but something about the rangefinder patch of the ZI was disconcerting. Your eye had to be centered properly or ... I forget. But what great eye relief. Anyway, all my Leica rangefinders are gone except an M3 and dual range Summicron. More of an SLR guy now, and have been for many years.
I wonder if you were testing it outside? The only viewfinder issue I'm aware of is difficulty in seeing meter readings in very bright light.
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Old 01-16-2019   #77
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I do not have the longevity of decades of buy and sell experience of many RFF members, but after two relatively recent rash decisions on M body sales two years ago, I have learnt my lesson ... never sell an M! And there has definitely been an upswing in prices over the past two to three years.

I bought a great condition M2 in 2016 for AU$900 from a seller who had owned it since new. I then invested an extra AU$500 on it for a CLA, new curtains and multicoated windows. After this, it was a beauty to use and, yes, even fondle. But I then got a desire for a M6 because of the convenience of the meter and told myself I could not justify owning two Ms. So I sold the M2 at a loss of about AU$250 on the well known auction site despite providing evidence of the CLA work. Now I see user M2s go for a lot more than I sold mine which was cosmetically and mechanically excellent. Anyway, I bought a late year M6 TTL in mint condition with box and strap from a Japanese seller in 2017 for AU$2,500. This was the going rate for such a good copy on the auction site at the time. It was a lot of money for me but I felt OK with it and sold off my Mamiya C330f and some FD lenses to help. But then, I got divorced and needed the cashflow urgently to sort out my life (Leica has nothing to do with that). 18 months later and still in possession of a few M mount lenses, I desired a M6 back. Now I see that black chrome M6 TTLs in the same mint and boxed condition I used to have now appear for around AU$3,500. There is simply nothing listed or on auction at AU$2,500. I never liked the slightly bigger body of the TTL anyway so got so-called lucky and picked up a good 1993 year silver M6 classic for AU$2,220 as I also utilised a 10 per cent off promo code. From what I can see, M6 TTLs are priced so high that one might as well seriously consider saving a little more (or raising funds) and go all out on a used MP. At least that is the way the economics look from Australia (our dollar is sliding).

The moral of the story: I should never have sold the M2 and still miss it dearly. To find one as good as what I had would cost way more now than I would be comfortable investing in a non-metered camera.
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Old 01-16-2019   #78
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The other thing about the ZI ZM rangefinder patch is that it doesn't follow the framelines when thy correct for parallax. The patch stays centre in the viewfinder. The Bessas do this too. It slightly alters my focus-and-recompose perception.

Much as I like these Cosina-made rangefinders I think the immobile patch shows a lack of sophistication compared to M's.
I never would have thought of this lack of sophistication.

I just pulled out a ZI and an M3 to compare. I see the focus patch difference between the two but fail to see the lack of sophistication in the ZI. (The ZI viewfinder is bigger, brighter and without color cast, which I would argue makes it far more sophisticated than the M3, but that's just me).
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Old 01-16-2019   #79
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I see I've touched a nerve with Pioneer and jawarden about the ZI patch. I didn't think I was making a fuss about it in the first place, but after several rolls through my ZI and my two Bessas I know what I like. They're fine cameras nonetheless.
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Old 01-16-2019   #80
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Honestly I think it's just random cameras that become fads. Overall, most used cameras are down in price over the past 8 years. Those "stupid expensive" Leicas? Not at all, II and III models are about 75% of what they cost in 2007. Counting for inflation, they're even lower. Canon P rangfinders were $200-300 a few years ago, now they're about $100. Most SLRs are staying in the $25 catagory, other than cult fads that crop up every few years. These drive a dirt cheap Pentax 1000 way above $25, until people finally get sick of them and move on. I see very few cameras going for what they did 8 years ago. All are lower. Lenses too.

Come on, M3 bodies that were $1800 back then are commonly selling on ebay for $900 to a grand. Is the M6 going high right now? I don't know, I don't check and don't care. But if it is, it will drop back down soon.
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