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Is it worth keeping Non-Ai Nikon lenses unmolested?
Old 01-04-2019   #1
MacReady
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Is it worth keeping Non-Ai Nikon lenses unmolested?

I have four, 35 2.8, 50 1.4, 135 2.8 and a 200 4.

They aren't particularly mint, bar the 135mm but it's the weaker 4 element version anyway.

I'm just wondering whether to file them and use them or if people actually want original lenses like that.


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Old 01-04-2019   #2
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I can't really say what they are "worth" in monetary terms, perhaps not much, but I personally prefer using my Nikon F with the lenses that were original. In that case of course "worth" is defined more on personal bias than a market value.

A quick check of selling prices for sold items on ebay would give you a better idea of what the actual market value of these lenses may be.

Of course I own only one Nikon camera, the original F, so my personal bias is a little different than a true Nikon aficionado might be.
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Old 01-04-2019   #3
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These lenses are so common that I think your best approach is to AI them and enjoy them.
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Old 01-04-2019   #4
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I'd say, it you want to convert them to AI, seek out the correct AI aperture ring for each lens and do the conversion properly.
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Old 01-04-2019   #5
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Pretty soon you'll be using them on a Sony A7 series camera or the new Nikon mirrorless or a Leica SL with an adapter, so why go the extra trouble and expenses to have them converted at all?
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Old 01-04-2019   #6
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Tried a 35 2.0 non-Ai on the FTZ adapter on a Z7. It will mount but no auto aperture. In the user manual, Nikon states non-Ai are not compatible. Get a Df, flip up the Ai lever, enter the lens info and use those lenses.
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Old 01-04-2019   #7
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There must be over 100,000 non-Ai lenses still around, and the market prices for most Nikkor lenses are not going up. If you need to Ai some lenses, I would just do it and not worry about a possible sudden great increase in resale value of non-Ai lenses.
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Old 01-04-2019   #8
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I'm on the same page as Raid on this one. Even though I have a Df, I still AI'd all my non-AI glass, that way I can use them on my D700 as well. It may have decreased the value of the lenses, (20mm f3.5, 35mm f2, 50mm f1.4, 105mm f2.5) but I don't care, I'm much more interested in using them than selling them.

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Old 01-04-2019   #9
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Most Nikkor glass is so common and readily available on the market that I could not see an AI conversion as being particularly deleterious to its price. In fact usually the opposite - non AI lenses (at least the common focal lengths and speeds) always seem to attract considerably less $ on eBay etc.

There may be a few rarities where AI conversion might be damaging to price but even then only if they are in top notch (collector) condition. Even here many were factory converted back in the day by swapping out the base ring for the new AI compliant one. And I would not really expect them to attract less $ given their factory "fresh" state.

Just one appeal. Please - please make sure you know your way around hand tools before tackling the task yourself. It is by no means a difficult job. As working on lenses go it is easy - in fact the lens disassembly and reassembly is sometimes more tricky than actually cutting the AI notch so long as you know how to measure, mark up the cut then execute it. I find it a bit distressing when a rough job is done because someone does not know how to use a needle file to neatly cut the required notch in the lens. An AI conversion like that likely would attract less money when sold.

Having said that, the above is only relevant if you propose to use the lenses on certain Nikon bodies. If for example you propose to use them with adapter on a mirrorless camera, save yourself the time and trouble. And have the pleasure of knowing the lens is still in original condition when you pass it on.
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Old 01-04-2019   #10
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I have two Ai'ed lenses, the Nikkor-H 2.8cm f/3.5 & Nikkor-P 10.5cm f/2.5 - the former was factory Ai'ed before I purchased it and the latter I had Ai'ed at Kiitos in Shinagawa Tokyo. Both get used regularly on a Nikon F3P.

Another vote to use - either in the current condition or after being Ai'ed.
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Old 01-04-2019   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
I'd say, it you want to convert them to AI, seek out the correct AI aperture ring for each lens and do the conversion properly.
i'd say good luck. the AI conversion rings are very difficult to find now.

another option is to buy a user copy of the same lens (with correct aperture conversion ring) for cheap and steal the conversion ring from it.
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Old 01-04-2019   #12
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Non-AI Nikkor lenses work fine on my Nikon F2.
DP-1 shows selected aperture in the finder - even with non-AI lenses.

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Old 01-04-2019   #13
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get a cheap (and good!) Nikon FM and enjoy them!
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Old 01-04-2019   #14
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I think I got the answer I wanted to hear(!), thanks.

If I can get this ebay seller to ship a $4 part internationally then they shall remain OG and on my F, otherwise I will have to whip out the files (guilt free) so that they fit on my FA.

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Old 01-04-2019   #15
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Find out what lens versions you have.
Most are very common, some are very rare and expensive.
Don't modify the rare ones.
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Old 01-04-2019   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
Find out what lens versions you have.
Most are very common, some are very rare and expensive.
Don't modify the rare ones.
which ones are rare?

Suppose all these are common
I had non AI

135/2.8
85/1.8
200/4.0
50/1.4
55mm/2.8
105mm/2.5

80-200/4.0 AI
180mm ED 2.8 AF

still have:
24/2.8 non AI (converted)

35/2.0 non AI (filed)
50/1.8 AI
105/2.5 AI
60/2.8
180mm/2.8 nikkor P converted to AI
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Old 01-04-2019   #17
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I have very few Nikkor lenses. Among the non-AI is a 2.1cm 4.0-O.

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Old 01-04-2019   #18
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I am pretty sure you can't molest an inanimate object

The lenses you have are very common, so no worries if you AI them.

Besides, isn't an AI'd lens an improvement? Shouldn't a converted lens be fully functional on newer bodies and the older bodies too as long as you save the prong?
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Old 01-04-2019   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterm1 View Post
Most Nikkor glass is so common and readily available on the market that I could not see an AI conversion as being particularly deleterious to its price. In fact usually the opposite - non AI lenses (at least the common focal lengths and speeds) always seem to attract considerably less $ on eBay etc.
I agree. Whenever I'm on the auction site I look for AI or AI'd versions of a Nikkor AI ones are harder to find and higher priced. I have no interest in non-AI versions.
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Old 01-04-2019   #20
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I will reiterate what Peter M said above. Do the modification but just don't butcher it. I've seen some HORRIBLE cuts by ham-fisted Nikkor owners who essentially ruined their lenses by using crappy tools and not measuring properly. Once you cut too much, you can't add metal back to that ring. I think the last one I saw a botch job on was done with a rat-tail wood rasp instead of a good sharp file.
I think the "best" hack I saw was on a lens some guy posted to craigslist in NYC. It was a 28mm f/2 that he had "Ai'd" but he didn't post a photo of the buggered up ring. In his impatience, he performed with daring ineptitude, a file job of the ring WITH IT STILL ON THE LENS. The flange was scarred and I doubt the Ai cut was even close. All that metal had begin to creep into the helicoid and it could be felt just about infinity. That was a waste of subway fare, time and a great lens.

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Old 01-04-2019   #21
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A 28/2? See I wouldn't bugger with a 28/2 but with a factory ring. Stop down instead but to each their own. Yeah they made roughly 40k of them. Just be aware of what exactly youre molesting
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Old 01-05-2019   #22
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AFAIK, if one is in North America, and wants to have it done professionally, this is the address to go:

John White
1350 Folkstone Ct.
Ann Arbor MI 48105
(734) 662-1734
[email protected]

http://aiconversions.com/
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Old 01-05-2019   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumarongi View Post
AFAIK, if one is in North America, and wants to have it done professionally, this is the address to go:

John White
1350 Folkstone Ct.
Ann Arbor MI 48105
(734) 662-1734
[email protected]

http://aiconversions.com/
Wow, I was visitor 60,000 if his counter at the bottom is accurate!
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Old 01-05-2019   #24
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Could be correct. I just checked it. I was Visitor 60002.
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Old 01-05-2019   #25
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Well, it turns out the 35mm I have is a very early one. The second type produced according to http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/lenses.html , without bayonet screws but using 35mm instead of 3.5cm.

Oddly, it doesn't actually foul the lever at all, It's about half a mil away from even touching it.

The aperture ring is 60mm in diameter FYI.
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Old 01-05-2019   #26
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I prefer to keep them original no matter how common. Are you using them on film or digital or both?
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Old 01-05-2019   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanskDynamit View Post
get a cheap (and good!) Nikon FM and enjoy them!
Second! And later when you use the lenses on your mirrorless digital, the AI conversion would have been a waste of money. I would leave the lenses alone.
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Old 01-05-2019   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacReady View Post
Well, it turns out the 35mm I have is a very early one. The second type produced according to http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/lenses.html , without bayonet screws but using 35mm instead of 3.5cm.

Oddly, it doesn't actually foul the lever at all, It's about half a mil away from even touching it.

The aperture ring is 60mm in diameter FYI.
Those early lenses that don't have visible screws on the mount flange have f/stop rings that screw on to the barrel with rather fine threads. With some samples, it is possible to remove the screw on the side of the f/stop ring that connects it to the internal diaphragm mechanism and screw the ring on 1 or 2 turns further. This will reduce the overhang and sometimes allow it to clear the tab on some camera bodies. The facts that many body tabs are tapered and these f/stop rings are thinner also help.

The earliest of these lenses have a very deep overhang, too deep to allow this trick to work and too deep to allow them to fit any Nikkormat with a TTL meter and any of the Ai bodies that have a flip up coupling tab. The only metered bodies that they will mount on are the F and F2 Photomics. Nikon reduced the overhang when they were developing the Nikkormats.
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Old 01-06-2019   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwig View Post
Those early lenses that don't have visible screws on the mount flange have f/stop rings that screw on to the barrel with rather fine threads. With some samples, it is possible to remove the screw on the side of the f/stop ring that connects it to the internal diaphragm mechanism and screw the ring on 1 or 2 turns further. This will reduce the overhang and sometimes allow it to clear the tab on some camera bodies. The facts that many body tabs are tapered and these f/stop rings are thinner also help.

The earliest of these lenses have a very deep overhang, too deep to allow this trick to work and too deep to allow them to fit any Nikkormat with a TTL meter and any of the Ai bodies that have a flip up coupling tab. The only metered bodies that they will mount on are the F and F2 Photomics. Nikon reduced the overhang when they were developing the Nikkormats.
That's some great knowledge and something I didn't find anywhere else!

Thanks
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Old 01-06-2019   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumarongi View Post
AFAIK, if one is in North America, and wants to have it done professionally, this is the address to go:

John White
1350 Folkstone Ct.
Ann Arbor MI 48105
(734) 662-1734
[email protected]
http://aiconversions.com/
I have had a total of eight Nikkors AI’d by John. Done very professionally and all turned around very quickly. And they all function perfectly on my Df. Great to deal with...

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Old 01-06-2019   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwig View Post
The earliest of these lenses have a very deep overhang, too deep to allow this trick to work and too deep to allow them to fit any Nikkormat with a TTL meter and any of the Ai bodies that have a flip up coupling tab. The only metered bodies that they will mount on are the F and F2 Photomics. Nikon reduced the overhang when they were developing the Nikkormats.
Thanks for the information. In the manual for the Df it states a number of early Nikkor's are not compatible, I thought it was some early lenses have light baffles that extend into the mirror box. I knew about the overhang but didn't realize it would be a problem on film bodies. This last week I picked up a Nikkormat FT2 from a local shop they had overhauled and painted for me. When I got it home I was having problems with the meter indexing. Ironically, the lens I left with the shop was an unmodified 2.8 cm 3.5 with a serial number below 320000. I called them to let them know that lens wasn't compatible with the camera body.
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Old 01-06-2019   #32
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I still have an early Nikon F plain prism, and I still have two Nikkor lenses for it. A Nikkor 28mm f/2 ... a late copy of the Pre-AI before they were fitted with an AI aperture ring ... and a Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/3.5 Pre-AI.

The 28mm was AI'ed before I bought it. I had the 55mm AI'ed. Neither will ever be collectibles ... they were well used when I bought them although in excellent optical and functional shape for use ... so no one should ever care that they were sullied and modified from their original form.

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Nikon F Tick Lenses
Old 01-06-2019   #33
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Nikon F Tick Lenses

these are the early Nikon F lenses that you should never modify

- the earliest lenses made for the 1959 Nikon F

https://cameraquest.com/nftick.htm
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Old 01-06-2019   #34
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i would rather just use them, its a simple process to do it and once painted can't hardly notice it.
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Old 01-06-2019   #35
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I bought a Nikkormat and a few Nikkor lenses when I was in various places in Asia in 1972. As I recall, when I was in Japan visiting a dealer, I was informaed that the Nikkormat was construced the same as a Nikon F with the exception of the prism swap. For some reason, the Nikkormat has a top flash sync speed of 1/125 where the F is 1/90.

I still have all the lenses and camera, instructions.

Took it everywhere back then and used it until 2004 when I changed to digital.
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Old 01-06-2019   #36
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For some reason, the Nikkormat has a top flash sync speed of 1/125 where the F is 1/90.
Nikkormat has a vertical metal shutter while the F has a horizontal cloth shutter. Thatīs the reason why..
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Old 01-06-2019   #37
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these are the early Nikon F lenses that you should never modify

- the earliest lenses made for the 1959 Nikon F

https://cameraquest.com/nftick.htm
I have never even seen those lenses and i have been looking at Nikon for decades.
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Old 01-06-2019   #38
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Quote:
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... I thought it was some early lenses have light baffles that extend into the mirror box. ...
There are a few lenses from the mid-60s to early-70s where light baffles came into conflict with some Ai bodies. These included some 28mm f/3.5 and 35mm f/1.4 lens, along with some others. I used to do Ai conversions on lenses for which Nikon didn't provide kits. I could machine the rear baffle on the 28 f/3.5 to provide clearance. I've also seen some done by other shops that simply removed the baffle.

The lenses with the deep f/stop ring overhang (a dust shield) were made between 1959 and roughly 1961, or so. Nikon did provide a service to address the issue during the early 1960s. I have a 21mm f/4 that was altered, though perhaps not by Nikon.
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Old 01-06-2019   #39
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Quote:
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these are the early Nikon F lenses that you should never modify

- the earliest lenses made for the 1959 Nikon F

https://cameraquest.com/nftick.htm
One aspect of these lenses derives from Nikon's paranoia when designing the F-mount. Lens mounts had common issues back in the day. Nikon wanted to avoid the problems they'd had to work around or live with. The common problems were:
  1. too small in diameter limiting lens design. LTM, Contax/NikonRF, Exakta, and others were guilty.
  2. lens mount faces would wear and/or be damaged by grit/dirt.
  3. bayonet mounts had unreliable latches.
To address #1 they made the inner diameter of the F-mount equal to the film image diagonal. To address #2 they used hard, but dissimilar metals for the body and lens flanges and used a dead bolt pin, link the Leica M, to address #3.

Additionally, they designed the lenses so that the f/stop ring overhung the mounting flange as an additional dust/dirt shield to further address #2. The original overhang on the "tick mark" lenses was something around 3mm. It covered most of the side of the body flange on the F. They reduced this to about 1.5mm in the early 60s to address issues with the meter coupling on the meter coupling of the Nikkormat FT being developed. The early tick mark lenses will only mount on the F, F2, Nikkorex F (and the Ricoh version), and Nikkormat FS unless the lens was modified.
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Old 01-06-2019   #40
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If there's some special collector value, I would keep unaltered, otherwise, I would make them more useful.


With that said, is anybody still doing AI mods on lenses these days? I believe Nikon USA has been out of that business for years, if not decades. Anybody else? I have a few that *might* be worth an AI mod.
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