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Old 01-02-2019   #41
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Please define "far from good".
In other words it sucks if you need lens to act as wide lens, not tele.
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Old 01-02-2019   #42
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And it has a red dot.
For me to cover with black tape...
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Old 01-02-2019   #43
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
In other words it sucks if you need lens to act as wide lens, not tele.
If you want a wide lens, use a wide lens. The number on it is irrelevant...

https://youtu.be/PHYidejT3KY
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Old 01-02-2019   #44
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
In other words it sucks if you need lens to act as wide lens, not tele.
M8 has a 15% increase in focal length only if i am not mistaken.
It does not convert a wide to tele.
I worked w/ a Nikon D100 and D200 for years, w/ more cropping than that and did everything i wanted out of my lenses.

As I see it Leica should have a line of cropped sensors w/ better prices just like Nikon does... If it´s a CL, more power to them. Big sensors are much more expensive.
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Old 01-02-2019   #45
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Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
The CL is a digital camera with built in obsolescence..
A new model all the time, battery availability another means,
of killing a model. If your income has no problem with digital Leica prices, go for a full frame Leica..An M.
Lenses will be what designed for..
Film is alive and well and very competitive..
I love the slowness (no longer doing pro assignments),
the tactile feel of holding an image..
Only you the buyer can decide what you should do!
I have looked at the 28mm 1.7 summilux camera,
that never opens aperture more than f2.4 ?..
A cropped image at higher views..
The CL can never be a Barnack!
Those old cameras are unique and all the mods cannot compare!
I have used them, the results very interesting with old lenses..
Well, you have a choice - buy an up-to-date camera which will become obsolescent or buy an old-tech one which already is...
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Old 01-02-2019   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
If you want a wide lens, use a wide lens. The number on it is irrelevant...

https://youtu.be/PHYidejT3KY
FoV of 21 wide lens is 31 on CL.

Here is nothing what could be done, this is why it is called as the crop.
Even some YouTube video will not fix it.
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Old 01-02-2019   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
FoV of 21 wide lens is 31 on CL.

Here is nothing what could be done, this is why it is called as the crop.
Even some YouTube video will not fix it.
No, but as I understand their point--just buy the lens that gives you the angle of view you want (thanks Jaap), and your problem is solved. I don't have any Leica lenses in my stable at the moment so this seems like a very reasonable approach to me.
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Old 01-02-2019   #48
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
FoV of 21 wide lens is 31 on CL.

Here is nothing what could be done, this is why it is called as the crop.
Even some YouTube video will not fix it.
Hang on.. You're a photographer -right? You see the shot, you select your gear - you take it. You are not going to take a 35 mm equ. lens when you need a 21 mm equ. are you?

And it is not field of view - it is angle of view. Field of view incorporates the subject distance.
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Old 01-02-2019   #49
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Originally Posted by karateisland View Post
Does the digital CL feel like a "real" Leica?....
My big surprise in this thread is that there are so many different views on what makes a "real" Leica.
If you can, go to a dealer who has the CL, M etc in stock so you can handle them. Then it's up to you.
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Old 01-02-2019   #50
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If you can, go to a dealer who has the CL, M etc in stock so you can handle them. Then it's up to you.
All other arguments aside, this is my plan--I am learning that no one else's opinion is as important as my own experience. I'm going to Boston for the weekend soon, and I'll see if I can't test drive one of the cameras for 24 hours to see if it clicks or not.

(Or is the test drive only for the SL now?)
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Old 01-02-2019   #51
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I'm going to Boston for the weekend soon, and I'll see if I can't test drive one of the cameras for 24 hours to see if it clicks or not.
LensRentals:

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/leica-cl

Don't forget a lens.
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Old 01-02-2019   #52
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Hang on.. You're a photographer -right? You see the shot, you select your gear - you take it. You are not going to take a 35 mm equ. lens when you need a 21 mm equ. are you?

And it is not field of view - it is angle of view. Field of view incorporates the subject distance.
Thank you, Jaap. I'm just calling it wrong, I guess.
This is what I'm trying to say here from day one .
Here is no M 14mm lens made by Leica, I guess, to have similar to 21mm Leica made lens result.
But maybe OP doesn't mind 50mm lens to be 75mm.

Personally, I like how 35mm 35usd Jupiter-12 gives me same images on film and digital M
Otherwise I would already own Epson R-D1.
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Old 01-02-2019   #53
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I use the Voigtländer 15, no problem , besides, the wide zoom for the CL is 11-23, with plenty of Leica quality built in
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Old 01-02-2019   #54
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Exactly! I like how Leica zoom renders on my Panasonic P&S .
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Old 01-02-2019   #55
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Hmmmm, my Sony A6000 has an APS-C sensor, can use M-mount lenses (with an adapter), and costs a tiny fraction of what a digital CL might cost. But it doesn't "feel" like a "real" Leica. Better probably, because the Sony has a useable handgrip which makes handholding infinitely more comfortable and secure than the usual bar-of-soap shape Leica is forever married to for all its cameras.
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Old 01-02-2019   #56
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Originally Posted by karateisland View Post
All other arguments aside, this is my plan--I am learning that no one else's opinion is as important as my own experience. I'm going to Boston for the weekend soon, and I'll see if I can't test drive one of the cameras for 24 hours to see if it clicks or not.

(Or is the test drive only for the SL now?)
It will click or not over the counter. Hold it, press to your face, shoot. Three times. You either feel the love or don´t.
You may dislike it in 6 months which i highly doubt.
If you have the cash, buy a high end small digital. They are wonderful.

Sonys were mentioned... Sonys have confusing menus. Leica opts for simplified menus. It´s their take on digital and it´s great.
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Old 01-02-2019   #57
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I think the CL has that Leica build quality. It’s feels good in the hands. I’d buy the lenses that are made for it though. If you want to use ff MF lenses, there are better options. I’d stay clear of the SL though. Those are for diehard Leica fans only imo. For full frame Leica M lenses, nothing beats an M.
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Old 01-02-2019   #58
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Hmmmm, my Sony A6000 has an APS-C sensor, can use M-mount lenses (with an adapter), and costs a tiny fraction of what a digital CL might cost. But it doesn't "feel" like a "real" Leica. Better probably, because the Sony has a useable handgrip which makes handholding infinitely more comfortable and secure than the usual bar-of-soap shape Leica is forever married to for all its cameras.
You do realize that grips are a preference right? I hate grips, so long live the soap bar!
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Old 01-02-2019   #59
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Originally Posted by karateisland View Post
All other arguments aside, this is my plan--I am learning that no one else's opinion is as important as my own experience. I'm going to Boston for the weekend soon, and I'll see if I can't test drive one of the cameras for 24 hours to see if it clicks or not.

(Or is the test drive only for the SL now?)
Ah, you're changing the basis of your decision process on us.

Seriously, the SL is a rather different order of fish from either the M or the CL. Do take a look at it, it's a lovely machine, but it's not directly comparable to either the M or the CL.

I had an SL for three years. It's a superb camera. The body is a nice size: about the size/weight/shape of a Leicaflex SL give or take a little. Its native SL series lenses are superb performers, but they tend to be rather bulky and heavy. It, like the CL, performs well with most of the M series lenses (M Adapter L necessary) and with all of the R series lenses (either M Adapter L + R Adapter M or R Adapter L mount adapters necessary ... to get all the lens profiles). The EVF is likely the best, or at least one of the best, in the business. And the control layout, etc, is superb ... if utterly and completely different from an M camera.

But I found that when I retired and closed my photo business for good, I didn't want to carry it any more. It's a tool that met my every need for professional jobs, but it's not a camera that I want to carry casually for my own photography.

I replaced the SL with the CL because I still needed a TTL camera for purposes like macro, copy work, long telephoto work, etc. And I still have all my R lenses. And I find the CL is great to have around for much more than those niche purposes. The CL handles much better with Leica M lenses—its smaller size and lighter weight balances better with them—and still performs brilliantly with the R system lenses and accessories. For my specific niche needs, it actually does a better job than the SL ... given the same resolution sensor for copy and close-up work, with the same lens as the SL, I don't need to work with such long extensions on the bellows or such a tall copy stand position, with means fewer problems with vibration, etc.

In the end, the only opinion that matters is your own. Go to a Leica dealer and handle all three, for sure. They are all superb cameras, and all superb lenses. Pick whichever one tickles your fancy, then go out and make photos.

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Old 01-02-2019   #60
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You do realize that grips are a preference right? I hate grips, so long live the soap bar!
Yes, obviously. It is pretty much a thread full of our opinions and preferences, after all.
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Old 01-02-2019   #61
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A lot of us older guys consider the CL..as it has the Leica vibes...ie..luxury..
..but w/older eyesight going south.. the M focusing gets less use...and weight issues as well... as in...who wants to carry a brick around..
..I definitely considered the CL for awhile..but no flippy screen..no deal..as I do a lot of low angle shots and don't want to strain my back..
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Old 01-02-2019   #62
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This thread might point to the unmet demand for a full frame M-mount camera with a rangefinder-style EVF. Beside the mechanical simplicity, it would probably sell in greater volume and cost less as a result.
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Old 01-02-2019   #63
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This thread might point to the unmet demand for a full frame M-mount camera with a rangefinder-style EVF. Beside the mechanical simplicity, it would probably sell in greater volume and cost less as a result.
"Full frame sensor" and "cost less" should not be in the same paragraph.

Full frame goes well w/ full wallet.
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Old 01-02-2019   #64
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This thread might point to the unmet demand for a full frame M-mount camera with a rangefinder-style EVF. Beside the mechanical simplicity, it would probably sell in greater volume and cost less as a result.
Keep dreaming about it costing less...
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Old 01-02-2019   #65
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"Full frame sensor" and "cost less" should not be in the same paragraph. Full frame goes well w/ full wallet.
There are a number of FF mirrorless cameras less expensive than the CL. Canon, Nikon, Sony and others make them. Making a FF EVF M mount at a price lower than the CL is certainly possible. It won't come from Leica though. They are not interested. They target a different market segment. There have long been rumors of an M mount Q. One was rumored to be released last June, but that obviously didn't happen. It won't be cheap when it does arrive.
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Old 01-02-2019   #66
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Hmmmm, my Sony A6000 has an APS-C sensor, can use M-mount lenses (with an adapter), and costs a tiny fraction of what a digital CL might cost. But it doesn't "feel" like a "real" Leica. Better probably, because the Sony has a useable handgrip which makes handholding infinitely more comfortable and secure than the usual bar-of-soap shape Leica is forever married to for all its cameras.
I’ve used both the Sony 6300 ( i think) and the CL and the CL is so much nicer to hold and use with much better haptics that there is no comparison from the luxury viewpoint. The CL was just a pleasure to use while the Sony was just a tool to use. Whether that matters is down to preference and budget.
But it should be like this as the CL is so much more expensive!
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Old 01-02-2019   #67
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Less than a rangefinder M, maybe even less than an SL, more than a CL. You know what I mean.
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Old 01-02-2019   #68
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This thread might point to the unmet demand for a full frame M-mount camera with a rangefinder-style EVF. Beside the mechanical simplicity, it would probably sell in greater volume and cost less as a result.
Something like Fujifilm did with thier digital MF cropper.
First they came with SLR style EVF and later on with EVF slapped into the corner.
Since Leica has camera which looks like Sony A7, they could do the same.
Both Sony and Leica. Oh!: And Canonikon. Canon could even call it as RF. .
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Old 01-02-2019   #69
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I’ve used both the Sony 6300 ( i think) and the CL and the CL is so much nicer to hold and use with much better haptics that there is no comparison from the luxury viewpoint. The CL was just a pleasure to use while the Sony was just a tool to use. Whether that matters is down to preference and budget.
Yeah, I wasn't very impressed with the Sony zooms. I'm convinced I get better results from almost any MF lenses I put on my A6000 vs. the Sony zooms.
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Old 01-02-2019   #70
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I don't get annoyed or even excited about specific camera types or brands. Can your camera get you images that you find acceptable? This is really what matters (to me). The Leica CL digital camera is a modern digital Leica camera. Most likely, it is an excellent camera. I have never used a digital CL. The film CL felt less solid to me than my M3, so I sold it years ago.
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Old 01-02-2019   #71
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A few background comments:

I have and use a number of nice mechanical film cameras including an M4 (since 1990). I'm fine with rangefinder focusing but I'm not as enthusiastic about it as some people.

I use normal prime lenses (35, 50 and 75eq) exclusively.

I only shoot BW (other than with a phone).

I prefer manual focus.

I'm very good at simple arithmetic (that is, I can both multiply and divide by 1.5).

I'm old enough to know that life is too short for cameras with too many buttons and convoluted menus.

With that said, I have a digital CL and use it with M lenses. I have a 35 and 50 and am working on getting a 21. I really like this camera. The finder looks great in BW. It's very easy to focus very accurately. Manually setting ISO is easy. Aperture priority works great. Exposure adjustments work great. It's the first digital camera I've had that feels completely natural. If "completely natural" is what "Leica" is about then, for me, this is a Leica.

As far as investing in TL, I feel like a CL with M lenses is a nice hedge. It seems like things a heading full frame. EVs are still getting better. I'm hoping for a CL/M/SL love child that's full frame, about the size of an M (maybe smaller) with an absolutely stunning EV. I think the odds are in my favor. (But I guess those odds would get a bit worse if I make it Monochrom without a screen).

I don't know if Leica Boston gives loaners but if you bring a memory card and spend a couple hours with the CL and an M and TL and M lenses, I think you'll get a good idea. That's what I did, they were a big help and it worked out great.
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Old 01-02-2019   #72
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My CL was kidnaped by my fashion blogger gal. She bought the 23 Cron TL.

I liked it as a fast shooter, love the ergonomics of the controls. The second dial for exposure compensation enhances using auto. The joystick for single point focus and exposure works for me. Pretty much all I need.

For manual focus I used the zoom function rather than focus peaking. I found zooming to be more accurate.

Now imagine mounting a Noct-Nikkor and the 58/1.2 becoming an 87/1.2 utilizing the sweet spot of a legendary lens. My 50 Lux-R "E60" is another magic lens for 75mm FOV.

Know I own a SL so I purposely bought the CL for portrait work, but my gal took ownership of the camera. Kinda reminds me of that GMC SUV commercial where the woman says, "I love it," and the guy says, "I like red."

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Old 01-02-2019   #73
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When I saw that the SL lens roadmap was aiming for optical perfection and not going to compromise in order to reduce size, I decided the TL system was the way to retain the compactness of Leica M with the convenience of AF and zooms.

Loved the TL2 style and UI, but in practice the external EVF only really works for me with the 11-23 at all other times, it catches on the bag, so the tilt angle is not worth the size increase. The focus peaking on M lenses was also too weak for LCD only use. I still use the TL2with the 18 and 23 as a Ricoh GR replacement.

ost recently I bought a CL and use it as my main camera with a 28mm M lens or 18-56 plus 35 TL.

I do feel the CL sympathetically evolves the spirit of the original LTM/M camera and lenses better than anything else on the market.
That said a M series body with EVF only would also be on my wish list and of more interest than a M11 with optical RF when it comes time to upgrade fro:the M10.
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Old 01-02-2019   #74
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It does not feel like a Leica M. It feels like a mirrorless camera with good build quality. When i tested it with the 23mm the AF felt slow compared to other mirrorless systems. They may have fixed that, I hope they have.
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Old 01-02-2019   #75
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It does not feel like a Leica M. It feels like a mirrorless camera with good build quality. When i tested it with the 23mm the AF felt slow compared to other mirrorless systems. They may have fixed that, I hope they have.
Also no internal stabilisation - which should make using MF lenses more difficult.
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Old 01-03-2019   #76
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Also no internal stabilisation - which should make using MF lenses more difficult.
Why? Leica M don’t have IS, but only MF lenses.
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Old 01-03-2019   #77
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Most recently I bought a CL and use it as my main camera with a 28mm M lens or 18-56 plus 35 TL.
How do you find the 35TL? It looks like a gorgeous lens, but somewhat on the bulky side. I'm intrigued, but since I'm used to my X100F and G2, a lens that size seems like it would make the camera more of a pain to carry, and less stealthy when I'm taking candids.
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Old 01-03-2019   #78
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How do you find the 35TL? It looks like a gorgeous lens, but somewhat on the bulky side. I'm intrigued, but since I'm used to my X100F and G2, a lens that size seems like it would make the camera more of a pain to carry, and less stealthy when I'm taking candids.
Yep, I’m a 50mm user and the fact that that lens is so big keeps me away from the CL. Thankfully, I like the xpro2 with 35mm f2. So close to your G2 in my opinion and pretty cheap used now.
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Old 01-03-2019   #79
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I do feel the CL sympathetically evolves the spirit of the original LTM/M camera and lenses better than anything else on the market.
That said a M series body with EVF only would also be on my wish list and of more interest than a M11 with optical RF when it comes time to upgrade fro:the M10.
FIT,

The CL with a 28 Cron-M is a 42mm. Two clicks on the right dial and I get the magnification I need to focus fast and accurately. At tap on the shutter and I get full framing.

Rigged with a 28 Cron it is very much like a film CL with a 40 Cron. Also is sized like a LTM IMHO.

What makes the CL a great camera is that it is fun and easy to use.

BTW the 28 Cron with the limited scalloped metal hood looks evil on the CL.

Cal
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To return to the original question: Yes!
Old 01-03-2019   #80
JohnP1
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To return to the original question: Yes!

When I was considering a camera purchase this time last year I compared the CL and the Fuji X-E3. As a Fuji owner already (X-T2) the choice seemed like a foregone conclusion, especially considering the price. However side by side in the hand the Fuji felt like a toy whilst the CL felt hewn from a solid block of metal. One deep breath later I became the owner of a CL plus 23/2 Summicron. I have since added the 18-56 & 11-23, and have not regretted my decision for one minute.

Regarding M mount lenses and others, just about anything is possible with the correct adaptor. I have used several Leica M lenses, a 60/2.8 macro R, a Voigtlander 28/3.5 and some Olympus OM's. My experience is none of these lenses work particularly well at or near full aperture, but some are better than others. Best of the bunch are the Voigtlander 28/3.5, Leica 60/2.8 and Olympus 200/4. I think of manual focus lenses on the CL as a bit of fun. Best by far to use native lenses. Whilst the argument over crop factor goes against wide angle lenses, it works in favour of longer focal lengths. My 200/4 OM makes a very handy 300/4 at negligible cost.

Regards

John
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