Overlaping frames
Old 09-17-2018   #1
xasthur
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Overlaping frames

Well as the title says I have a random problem with my Leica IIIa where sometimes my roll will come out with overlapping frames as if the film isn't advancing completely as you can see in the photos below.

I've shot about 8 or so rolls through this and the first ones were fine. I shot 2 rolls yesterday. The first one came out with the overlapping frames but the one after that came out without issues.

Yes I am cutting the film and loading it how it shows and I've watched many videos on how to do it. It seems to happen randomly.

Also on a off topic question I heard someone say they put a orange film over the RF window to make the patch easy to see? Could anyone explain what film is used to achieve this?

https://i.imgur.com/eANjVQT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UaCVJzv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YaDl4vK.jpg
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Old 09-18-2018   #2
Jerevan
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I have never heard of this happening in a screwmount Leica, but it looks like some gears slipping in the winding mechanism. Could be that it needs to be cleaned/adjusted?

The "orange film" is a piece of developed C-41 film cut to size and put under the rangefinder trim ring. The Leica contrast filter for your camera is named ORAKO, a small chrome ring you slip on the outside of the rangefinder window (if I remember it correctly).
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Old 09-18-2018   #3
David Hughes
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Sweet wrappers work and are easier to experiment with, like blue and yellow combinations etc.


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Old 09-19-2018   #4
xasthur
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From what I researched this may is shutter capping and that possibly cleaning and relubricating the shutter gears could possible fix so I'm going to give that a try. I will try this by following the link below. At least by taking the body out of the shell I will be able to more closely look at the shutter curtains to see if I can spot any issues.

http://tunnel13.com/blog/leica-iiia-cla-and-repair/
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Old 09-19-2018   #5
Peter Jennings
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Shutter capping is when part of the frame is unexposed. That’s not the problem you have. With shutter capping, the frames would be spaced normally. There would be a blank gap between each frame. Your frames are indeed overlapping.
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Old 09-19-2018   #6
xasthur
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Ah I see, it's very odd as i look through the roll it appears that in the dark spots on the film all appear to be the same exposure which seems to be a picture of my foot. Which leaves me thinking that it's happening right after loading it because the only way i would take photo of my foot is right after loading it and advancing the film. Perhaps a piece of film gets stuck and somehow exsposes itself in each frame and doesn't wind correctly.
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Old 09-19-2018   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerevan View Post
I have never heard of this happening in a screwmount Leica, but it looks like some gears slipping in the winding mechanism. Could be that it needs to be cleaned/adjusted?

The "orange film" is a piece of developed C-41 film cut to size and put under the rangefinder trim ring. The Leica contrast filter for your camera is named ORAKO, a small chrome ring you slip on the outside of the rangefinder window (if I remember it correctly).
Just make sure you get the right Leica filter. There's an ORAKO and an OKARO, but they are not the same. I believe you want the ORAKO. I have an OKARO that fits my Leica IIIf, it has a slightly larger diameter.

See Post #7 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic...ount-eyepiece/

And this blog post here: http://www.pattayadays.com/2015/03/i...you-say-okaro/
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Old 09-19-2018   #8
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Winding on the film also winds on the shutter curtains for the next exposure. Could it be that there is a gap between the shutter curtains as you turn the knob? Take the lens off and look at the curtains as you cock the shutter. The curtains should overlap.
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Old 09-19-2018   #9
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So I've taken the camera apart and I have some photos and videos below which will hopefully let someone more familiar with how it works spot the problem if there is one.

Right side of the curtain (not advanced)
https://i.imgur.com/JpFc6T9.jpg

Left side of the curtain (not advanced)
https://i.imgur.com/aIum1QE.jpg

Right side curtain (bulb)
https://i.imgur.com/SU0Ucey.jpg

Left side of curtain (bulb)
https://i.imgur.com/un2rVmb.jpg

Curtain halfway advanced
https://i.imgur.com/aFJ5NXy.jpg
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Old 09-19-2018   #10
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I removed some old grease that was in one of the cog wheels for the curtains, I could tell it was not suppose to be there. I don't think that could be the problem.

I also made some slow-mo videos of the camera firing at 1000s, to 100s.

1000s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerPcG2Z1q8

500s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDqKkpFQKtA

200s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLCCGlPTXYw

100s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yZ5qVtT7-8
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Old 09-20-2018   #11
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All looks pretty normal. I think the problem is not the shutter. As was first suggested, the advance gears are the likely culprit.
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Old 09-20-2018   #12
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Following the guide I linked before I removed all the old grease and stuff from the Timing Mechanism and applied new grease. I also cleaned the and re-lubed the slow speed escapement. Not sure if its me but it sounds more quiet and I like it!

I know you guys mentioned the advance gears but I'm curious if you could point me where it is in the camera so I could investigate?
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Old 09-20-2018   #13
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I am not an expert in Leica mechanics but I think I read somewhere that this problem can occur if the tension holding in the take up spool is too high. The spool must be able to slip a little on winding or it pulls the film over the sprockets. Joe
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Old 09-20-2018   #14
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You know how when you turn the film advance knob it turns the take-up spool? If the tension holding the take-up spool in place is not sufficient it can slip. This would lead to overlapping frames. I’m not sure why you would see it on some rolls and not others, though. Since you’re having fun doing this yourself, I’d go ahead and investigate there. I’m not sure exactly what you can do to fix it. I’ve never had a problem like that with my Leica copies.
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Old 09-21-2018   #15
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I took the camera apart again and was investigating the shaft that holds the take up spool. What what I can see it sits somewhat lose but not super lose to move to much when advancing film through it while using my other hand as a pressure plate.

I know Livesteamer said it should be a little loose to spin the spool if needed but Peter said it should be tight so it doesn't move. Perhaps removing the old grease and applying new grease to the gears and mechanisms will help as I don't know what screw would effect the take up spool rod tensioning.
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Old 09-21-2018   #16
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There is a tiny grub screw holding the knurled winding knob tight to the take up shaft. The winding knob also screws down on the take up shaft. If the grub screw is not tight enough, the winding knob can screw down too tight on the shaft, causing a lot of drag on the shaft as you wind. Make sure the knob is not cranked down on the shaft and the grub screw is holding the knob tight on the shaft threads.
Knobby Sparrow has a video that shows IIIf (similar to IIIa) taking the winding assembly apart correctly.
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Old 09-22-2018   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidnewtonguitars View Post
There is a tiny grub screw holding the knurled winding knob tight to the take up shaft. The winding knob also screws down on the take up shaft. If the grub screw is not tight enough, the winding knob can screw down too tight on the shaft, causing a lot of drag on the shaft as you wind. Make sure the knob is not cranked down on the shaft and the grub screw is holding the knob tight on the shaft threads.
Knobby Sparrow has a video that shows IIIf (similar to IIIa) taking the winding assembly apart correctly.
I went ahead and took the winding knob off and found a lot of old dried green grease beneath the knob itself and also the frame counter dial. I removed all that and applied new grease so that should be fine. Also I noticed when I removed the knob some of the threads were chewed off but luckily for me it still screws on somehow. I don't believe this was from me as I loosened the grub screw to where it was not on the threads anymore.

Either way I was able to remove the old dry grease and apply a fresh layer and luckily still got the knob to screw back on one and advance the frame. I will be going out and shooting with the camera hopefully this week so we will see if all my lubing and adjustments have a positive effect on the camera.

Now after taking apart the camera multiple times times and seeing how it works inside and out and how the film advancement functions I have a better understanding of how it should look when I load it and also how it should sound and overall act in general.
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