M10 has destroyed the used market
Old 03-02-2017   #1
AusDLK
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M10 has destroyed the used market

resale prices of M(240) for less than $2800??

say what?

and no one, no one, wants my M-D... well, i had an eBay offer for $3800

i'd rather keep it

will the used prices recover??
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Old 03-02-2017   #2
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No, as more M10s are delivered there will be more older models on the market and prices will go lower

I learned my lesson with Leica digital depreciation with the M8. The drops are so vast it easily pays for fine Fuji gear in full.
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Old 03-02-2017   #3
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An increase in supply of M240s puts downward pressure on prices; the decrease in demand puts downward pressure on prices. It is to be expected, I'm afraid. It might, too, have happened to the prices of M9? But the M240, I suppose, is the previous model and so most likely to be affected...
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Old 03-02-2017   #4
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On the other hand, I find it pretty remarkable that the M9 still sells at just the $3000 mark. I would have thought $2300 woulbe be tracking closer to the M8 depreciation curve. Testament to the unique mix of features of that camera?
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Old 03-02-2017   #5
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NO. What did you expect? A digital camera is a rapidly depreciating commodity, the M-D is a small niche product within that rapidly depreciating mass of other cameras.

I would say (totally guessing) the M-D has less than 1% of the Leica share, so 1 in 100 potential M240 buyers will potentially, maybe, want to buy an M-D. Will they pay more for it than a used M240? I wouldn't.

The only way you'll get a good price for a used M-D is to wait and/or be lucky. Waiting is a double edged sword, it might go lower (likely) but if they stop making it and don't announce a successor, then in might just if you're very very lucky and you have a mint example with all the paperwork and box go up again (unlikely). Sorry.
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Old 03-02-2017   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froyd View Post
On the other hand, I find it pretty remarkable that the M9 still sells at just the $3000 mark. I would have thought $2300 woulbe be tracking closer to the M8 depreciation curve. Testament to the unique mix of features of that camera?
Maybe because all M9s have got a brand new sensor while the M8 had/has screen issues?

I'd have thought the M9 would be at $2500, the M240 at $3500, and the M-P240 at $4000. Maybe it will take a while for the M9 to drop as people slowely migrate to newer models?
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Old 03-02-2017   #7
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i like the M-D

i'm just not the photographer that i used to be and decided that i couldn't justify keeping a $5000 camera that i didn't use

well, obviously the calculus changed when i wasn't looking. at least at the moment, i can justify keeping a $3800 camera that i don't use

maybe i'll find someone who will trade me an M-Monochrome for it -- that was a camera i should have kept
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Old 03-02-2017   #8
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I prefer the M-D to the M10. I am interested in getting a second M-D body, but have to move some other gear to afford it.

That said, I really don't care what new model buying frenzy does to prices at all. If I was unhappy enough with the M-P or M-D, I'd have sold them long ago anyway for whatever I could get. If I'm interested to pick up an M10, I'll do it when the frenzy has settled down.

G
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Old 03-02-2017   #9
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Depreciation only matters if one sells.

Why not just use your M-D?
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Old 03-02-2017   #10
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Quote:
will the used prices recover??
Could be. Those who wanted M10 now are fire selling their older ones, but used M market isn't big and newer was.
I think, next what might happen is end of fire sale and new owners of used M getting hold into their cameras. It should take fall effect away and prices will decline just by time factor. Or stay for sometime, if not increase.
Leica, if smart enough, should hold with any new cameras for next few years and benefit from selling of old M240 (still at very high price) and new M10.
Within next few years Leica will have enough technology available to make M11 as small as M3 and owners of M10 will be on fire sale again.
Of course it all could change if someone else comes with RF on the market.
Where are some folks who are working on the digital module for film cameras. If Leica was able to squeeze same electronics into M7 film body, within few years from now someone might squeeze all electronics into film cassette attached by the ribbon cable to the sensor placed on film pressure plate. Even it could be M13-D module for 5000 USD to be installed by Leica into your Leica film camera. Hold to your film M if any.
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Old 03-02-2017   #11
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Originally Posted by froyd View Post
On the other hand, I find it pretty remarkable that the M9 still sells at just the $3000 mark. I would have thought $2300 woulbe be tracking closer to the M8 depreciation curve. Testament to the unique mix of features of that camera?

I've been watching prices here on rff for the last few months and there have been several in $2500 range.

And an M240 just sold for $2700
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Old 03-02-2017   #12
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On the flip side, I picked up a used M240 for 3K a couple of weeks after the M10 announcement. It's been a dream of mine to own a digital M since 2009. In a few months maybe I'll feel like I overpaid - but I don't care. I will have been shooting and enjoying myself during that time. Even if the M240 goes to $0 in 3 years, I'll still be happily shooting it.

BTW, I had to sell a few things to get it - some jazz records, a couple of surfboards and a MacBook. While the records had appreciated a bit, the surfboards and computer most definitely had not! I got 500 for my MacBook which I had paid 2K for a few years ago. Oh well.
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Old 03-02-2017   #13
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I'm hoping the a used FF M will drop in price to around $1,000 USD so I can jump back in.

I'd be happy with any of them, Monochrome, M-D, just so long as it's FF.

B2 (;->
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Old 03-02-2017   #14
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I got my 240 used two years ago for $4,000 and it has been flawless. Thankfully I use it strictly for business so it has paid for it self already. I did put a pre-order in through Tamarkin for the M10 but it may take awhile so whatever hit I take on the 240 will be the hit I take, that's digital for you.

I could easily keep the 240 too, it just works and works and works.
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Old 03-02-2017   #15
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(i) bitch bitch bitch

then all of a sudden a $4000 and $4200 offer on eBay almost simultaneously

i countered at $4220 (i keep the Thumbs-Up and extra battery) and it's SOLD

after fees, though, i'll probably only clear that ~$3800 figure i mentioned

oh well... i'll move on and use my X-Pro2 and M film cameras for awhile
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Old 03-02-2017   #16
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It all sounds like very good news to me.

M240 for USD 2500, finally almost a reasonable price.
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Old 03-02-2017   #17
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(i) bitch bitch bitch

then all of a sudden a $4000 and $4200 offer on eBay almost simultaneously

i countered at $4220 (i keep the Thumbs-Up and extra battery) and it's SOLD

after fees, though, i'll probably only clear that ~$3800 figure i mentioned

oh well... i'll move on and use my X-Pro2 and M film cameras for awhile
What about the M10 now?
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Old 03-02-2017   #18
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How's this bad news? This is great news! You'll be able to pick up an M240 for under $3K and won't be able to tell the difference in the pics you take between that and the M10.
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Old 03-02-2017   #19
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what did you expect from a digital body?
doomed to carry the same film for all eternity, doomed to care about battery life, doomed to take pictures instead of photographs.
digital is sad and should be even cheaper than what it is.
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Old 03-03-2017   #20
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M240 + 35 cron asph selling for $4,500
Monochrom + 35 cron asph selling for $4,500

These are posted on Leica Classifieds facebook group
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Old 03-03-2017   #21
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M240 + 35 cron asph selling for $4,500
Monochrom + 35 cron asph selling for $4,500

These are posted on Leica Classifieds facebook group
That looks like a dangerous group...
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Old 03-03-2017   #22
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Ah... The M-D to me is the most desirable digital M - I am that niche. That and the Monochrom (either one).

I do like how the M10 is thinner like a film M body, and I'm sure there is more advantages...but I like the philosophy of the M-D, no screen etc.
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Old 03-03-2017   #23
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BTW, I had to sell a few things to get it - some jazz records....
What?!

I couldn't do that...No way!
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Old 03-03-2017   #24
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A new M10 (here in the UK) is 5.6k - a heck of a jump from a used M240. After a blip, due to an increased number of M240's being sold by new M10 owners, I would suspect that used prices of M240's will recover.

As other posts have covered M9's are still holding their price. Even more interesting is the price of a used M8 - getting hard to find and going up in price - not at all bad for digital camera!

Leica remains a niche market that is still coveted enough to keep prices high.

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Old 03-03-2017   #25
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All I can say is, told you so. A bunch of people said I was crazy in the other thread for saying that the M10 would crush the market for the M240s. It's a good time to be in the market for a used digital M.
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Old 03-03-2017   #26
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doomed to take pictures instead of photographs.
digital is sad and should be even cheaper than what it is.
Come on....
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Old 03-03-2017   #27
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what did you expect from a digital body?
doomed to carry the same film for all eternity, doomed to care about battery life, doomed to take pictures instead of photographs.
digital is sad and should be even cheaper than what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Come on....
Yeah, I'm with jsrockit here. Let's not go overboard with the doomsday of photography in the era of digital.
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Old 03-03-2017   #28
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How's this bad news? This is great news!
It's great how the free market works, isn't it?
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Old 03-03-2017   #29
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Maybe because all M9s have got a brand new sensor while the M8 had/has screen issues?

....
Also, the M8 also requires at least one IR filter for color work. Its crop factor is somewhat restrictive and some may not own the most convenient/appropriate focal lengths to produce their favorite fields-of-view.
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Old 03-03-2017   #30
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I wouldn't say "destroyed the used market", I would say it has "correct" then market.
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Old 03-03-2017   #31
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will the used prices recover??
Call me a camera day-trader, a gambler, or speculator, but if a BAT (Border Adjustment Tax Suggested 20% by Paul Ryan) we could see where the price of the M10 suddenly make a big adjustment upward.

Free market, supply and demand, and the value of the dollar certainly could cause the MD and other used camera prices to inflate.

Not really a Black Swan, might not happen, but there are possibilities. A BAT certainly will inflate used camera prices. A BAT is a gamechanger that will definitely effect the value of the dollar and some say it could cause a global recession.

For those wanting a MM or M240 the time to acquire one might be now. Back in the 70's I remember the inflation and what happened with new and used cars. Prices for new cars went down and used car prices got kinda crazy.

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Old 03-03-2017   #32
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A sub-$3000 M240 is tempting. That said, $2800 IS NOT the going rate at all. It is a one off ad. Ebay finished auctions show the oprice to be at $3300-3500 just yesterday. If that's the case, then store prices will be more.
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Old 03-03-2017   #33
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A sub-$3000 M240 is tempting.
John,

A lot of camera for "no money."

I could see someone shooting a M240 for many years and being happy.

The timing is that one has to remember it is tax season so factor this in for the best pricing. At B&H I mentioned the lack of crowds in talking with the sales people in January, but they assured me that after January all this changes with tax refunds.

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Old 03-03-2017   #34
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I could be wrong (I often am), but I think the M9 (& it's variants) will hold steady, price wise, in spite of the introduction of newer CMOS Leica M bodies, as the M9 is the last of the CCD sensor cameras. Now that Leica has gone the CMOS route, their cameras are just like Nikon & Canon, and every time a new model comes out, the old model is "yesterday's news" and depreciates. The newer model will have a marginally better sensor, and some extra bells and whistles, and folks who are considering laying out the money, will go with the latest and greatest. On the other hand the only way to get a full frame CCD sensor for your Leica M lenses, with it's limitations and it's advantages, is going to continue to be the used M9 market. It appears that nothing Leica will introduce in the foreseeable future is going to change that.
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Old 03-03-2017   #35
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A sub-$3000 M240 is tempting. That said, $2800 IS NOT the going rate at all. It is a one off ad. Ebay finished auctions show the oprice to be at $3300-3500 just yesterday. If that's the case, then store prices will be more.

Store prices for 240s in the UK seem to be around £3k .... there doesn`t seem to be many M9s about.
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Old 03-03-2017   #36
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I could be wrong (I often am), but I think the M9 (& it's variants) will hold steady, price wise, in spite of the introduction of newer CMOS Leica M bodies, as the M9 is the last of the CCD sensor cameras. Now that Leica has gone the CMOS route, their cameras are just like Nikon & Canon, and every time a new model comes out, the old model is "yesterday's news" and depreciates. The newer model will have a marginally better sensor, and some extra bells and whistles, and folks who are considering laying out the money, will go with the latest and greatest. On the other hand the only way to get a full frame CCD sensor for your Leica M lenses, with it's limitations and it's advantages, is going to continue to be the used M9 market. It appears that nothing Leica will introduce in the foreseeable future is going to change that.
Tim,

Good point. Glad I still own my MM. Warts and all still a great camera. The rendering is special.

OP misses his MM.

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Old 03-03-2017   #37
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resale prices of M(240) for less than $2800??


will the used prices recover??
Where have you seen recent sales at that price?
Lowest I have seen is $3000

Will the used prices recover?
No, they will continue to go down for a few years and then they will level out.
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Old 03-03-2017   #38
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It seems me that M9 and M-E prices are going up in the last few weeks.

M 240 and 262 with a trend down. Maybe this time I'll go with a digital M beside the M7...by the way next monday I'll be in Wetzlar...

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Old 03-03-2017   #39
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Tim,

Good point. Glad I still own my MM. Warts and all still a great camera. The rendering is special.

Cal
I agree Cal, I may only use my M9 in situations where I have plenty of light, but for that Kodachrome/Ektachrome color pop, nothing I've ever used can come close to the M9 CCD sensor. Possibly because that was the criteria behind the design of the Leica CCD sensor.

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Old 03-03-2017   #40
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Where have you seen recent sales at that price?
Lowest I have seen is $3000

Will the used prices recover?
No, they will continue to go down for a few years and then they will level out.
Ben,

There was one here in the RFF classified for $2695.00. Of course it sold fast. No longer listed but the photo link still goes to the original ad. Click on the photo under recent member ads. The camera came boxed.

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