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Old 02-22-2017   #41
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
I mentioned in a comment over on The Online Photographer recently, an interesting album of images on a Facebook user group showing last year's Stockholm Camera 'Yard Sale'. What was interesting about the images was that all the sellers were old men, and the vast majority of buyers were young kids, and particularly young women.

I don't for a second think film is dead, I think that the grumpy old men that hang on forums like this are getting nearer that status...

Anyways, the Kickstarter has blown past €220,000 (over $230,000) on its first day - on a €70k target.
Hey, I resemble that remark!
But in a more rational frame of mind ...

...Saying "film is dead" has been a calling card of the idiotic "film vs digital" meme for over a decade. I only mean it humorously.

Photographic capture on film has its unique and beautiful qualities that are different from digital capture; having both enriches the art form that we enjoy.

I do hope that enough people keep using film—and producing profit for film manufacturers—for long enough that I will not see the end of film production in my lifetime. I'm getting old so that isn't going to be for more than another few decades at most.

New products like the Lab Box make using film more accessible up and down the spectrum and, hopefully, help support keeping film profitable enough to keep making it.

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Old 02-22-2017   #42
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I don't for a second think film is dead, I think that the grumpy old men that hang on forums like this are getting nearer that status...
While out and about in Los Angeles over the weekend, I saw quite a few film camera users. A Yashica 124, a Canon T70, a Nikkormat were the ones that I was close enough to recognize. And they all were carried by young people (oldest was maybe 25). My nephews are into it, as are their friends.
It really is the old farts that are claiming the death of film. I think maybe because they are done with it, so don't want anyone else to use it either. Cuz they are grumpy old men.

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Old 02-22-2017   #43
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It really is the old farts that are claiming the death of film. I think maybe because they are done with it, so don't want anyone else to use it either. Cuz they are grumpy old men.

+1.

And for about 15 years the "film is dead" mantra has been an essential part of the digital camera marketing:
"You have to buy digital cameras because soon there will be no film anymore for you".
The masses were totally brainwashed by this.
And this is still in the minds of lots of members here. They have believed and are still believing these marketing lies.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 02-22-2017   #44
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Last week I had the temerity on Luminous Landscape to query whether they might consolidate some of the low traffic forum discussion folders into "FILM". Of course the rather strident reaction considered my antediluvian insanity and lots of "Film is dead" original reactions. Best responses were: "Film's simple. Take pictures. Go away and have fun." Okay. Added: "With film, the film companies have done so much of the work for you... building in lattitude and dynamic range, that you don't have to jigger it yourself." Maybe. At anyrate... I get what they're about. "Done".

Many there are old an great film photographer's but the market has indeed moved on, and I imagine if you're a working photographer it's all digital 'cause that's the demand, and what's expected. Selling's hard enough without making yourself out as a lunatic fighting the last war. Yes, understood, and I'm an amateur without that handcuff. Yes, I'm keeping my digital btw, and love digital especially for color where the post adjustments are relatively simpler for me than it would be to try to manage (for me at least) in a wet darkroom. Fairly, I haven't run any color film yet, but I'm not really after that with film - yet... so that may be a premature thought on my part.

So FWIW, during the few days my post played out, an article was posted on the future of photography with quite a fair number of very positive things said about film, and its revival - especially for Fine Art. Of course this followed an earlier article on scanning film negatives with cameras rather than scanners. So their subject matter in their articles is beginning to work an edge in... yet when asked to follow-up... the decision to ignore film was swift, decisive and firmly, "Not gonna happen." Put that in the category of Kevin Brownlow's intro to his book on the Silent Film era, "The parade's gone by, pops" as a tech once put it to the hand crank camera men from back in the day. Sure seems the case here, too. "Sic Transit, Gloria Mundi".

For my part, I'm working out a film-to-digital workflow for my B&W shots using: 1) light table, 2) old englarger ($35 on eBay), 3) Sony A7II, and prototype negative holder using cardboard and fiberboard that I'll shortly upgrade to brass and glass soon enough. Busy debugging my design's kinks at the moment, so Mod-Two should be better. Trial conversions are encouraging: Faster and easier than flatbed scanners, with better quality files - RAW rather than JPEGs... and adjustments in post are pretty quick. Sure, there's a learning curve, but if you're thinking about it, Capture One is doggone simple for B&W, and color doesn't look that much more difficult.

So if film really is all this simple as it is and cuts post production time - at least for B&W, then I'm loving it! Maybe Fuji will give us (back?) some high speed B&W?
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I see no reason for the two media NOT to coexist.
Old 02-22-2017   #45
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I see no reason for the two media NOT to coexist.

One of the reasons I enjoy film is the time elapsed between taking the shot and seeing the image. Somehow, it may take days or weeks. So, when you see the imagen for the first time, you have fresh eyes and can tell if the image is good or not. In the digital camera, I make the decision two seconds after the shot, then take another and another just in case. Film makes me be more thoughtful about that photography is about ( artistically speaking.) I enjoy photography as an art. If I need to take a shot to a dent on my car because an accident, I will use the cell phone.
It is curious that younger generation are interested in film, maybe not the millennial. We have been told that millennial are used to instant gratification, which is what digital point and shoot offers.
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Old 02-22-2017   #46
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What's with all the negativity? I think this is a great incentive for getting young people into film shooting. Also, millennials are not substantively different from us old folks. I work with them all day long. They're fine.

This system isn't really for me, but the "Monobath" developer caught my attention. I don't have a ton of experience outside of HC110 and Diafine...are single-bath B&W developers a thing?
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Old 02-22-2017   #47
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Just in case you're referring to my post as "negativity"... I think we're simply noting what's out there WITHOUT trying to do more than make the case for co-existence.

Worth a read on the monobath. As a non-chemist, can't evaluate whether the cell-level nano-tech claims real or simply sales buzz... but like to think new tech will help improve film's ability to thrive in the contemporary era.
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Old 02-22-2017   #48
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I haven't reached the age of 70 yet. So, I may be a bit younger than you all.

Way before stepping foot in a proper darkroom - as a beginning photographer, I used a Rondinax 35 developing tank and it worked well.
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Old 02-22-2017   #49
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I had backed this for the tank and both size modules, and just got an email from kickstarter an hour ago stating that, due to the success of the project so far, they would be sending an extra reel with the kit as a "freebie".
That's a nice surprise.
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Old 02-22-2017   #50
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AND you can use it outside! like the one guy appears to be doing...
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Old 02-22-2017   #51
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I think this is a great incentive for getting young people into film shooting.
No negativity here, but how so?
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Old 02-22-2017   #52
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No negativity here, but how so?
If I were just starting out, I'd watch that video and think, "Huh, this looks easier than I thought." Maybe more people will try their own developing with simplified tools available...
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Old 02-22-2017   #53
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Film is alive. Has a pulse. Most aren't paying attention, but for those of us with the freedom and interest to pursue it, there's something sweet about the Lab Box... kind of like Ferrania's / Ektar / Adox / Ilford revivals. The industry has painfully downsized, and some may yet quit altogether, but those who remain should do quite well. The real trick is someone coming up with a new, photographer-enthusiast level camera. The Leica MP is appealing... but not very widely at the current price point. And yet our hardware ages...
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Old 02-23-2017   #54
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Originally Posted by mabelsound View Post
If I were just starting out, I'd watch that video and think, "Huh, this looks easier than I thought." Maybe more people will try their own developing with simplified tools available...
I guess that could be... not as intimidating. But those of us that had to do it the old fashioned way figured out that it wasn't that hard once you tried. I think I started with a blank roll of film and went into the dark and just rolled it on and off the reel for awhile until I was confident. Or maybe it was in a changing bag.
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Old 02-23-2017   #55
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I've been trying to wrap my head around how the 120 can be loaded in daylight when I first saw it. Apparently you still need a dark room or a changebag to get it started.

Not being negative, mind. just inquisitive. At the moment I'm fine with my workflow, but I might just jump in and back the 35mm set.
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Old 02-23-2017   #56
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Originally Posted by Mr_Flibble View Post
I've been trying to wrap my head around how the 120 can be loaded in daylight when I first saw it. Apparently you still need a dark room or a changebag to get it started.

Not being negative, mind. just inquisitive. At the moment I'm fine with my workflow, but I might just jump in and back the 35mm set.
No ... It works just like the Rondinax 60 does:
  1. insert exposed film, leave backing end sticking out slot
  2. Put top on
  3. pull out backing ... film curls into light-tight section
  4. close light trap and remove top
  5. remove backing end
  6. attach film to reel
  7. put top on and open light trip
  8. roll film onto reel
  9. process

Easy.

G
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Old 02-23-2017   #57
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I guess that could be... not as intimidating. But those of us that had to do it the old fashioned way figured out that it wasn't that hard once you tried. I think I started with a blank roll of film and went into the dark and just rolled it on and off the reel for awhile until I was confident. Or maybe it was in a changing bag.
Me too!


.......
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Old 02-23-2017   #58
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Okay, I agree it's particularly nice for those who shoot and develop single rolls at a time or have no confidence / proficiency in developing in Hewes/Nikkor or Paterson tanks.

But, having easily sold my unused Rondinax 35U across the globe recently for a stunning EUR 65 + shipping, I think this is of interest to many people.
I agree

This kind of product will make the film developing process more easier for new film users and also encourage others to process their own film

Exciting times!!!
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Old 02-25-2017   #59
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Anything which encourages more young people to get into film photography, and buy more film, which this plainly does, can only be viewed as a good thing if you love the hobby. And I say "young people" because the photos of the ten principals indicate this is a hipster project. More power to them, and I wish them luck. I will probably back it for that reason alone, as I don't need another daylight loader.
Eventually many people who buy these will fall in love with actual-not instax- film photography, set up a real dark room, buy even more film, shave, and the world will be a better place for everyone.
Exactly.
It is a good project.
And the product is not replacing, but just supplementing the standard JOBO, Paterson and AP tanks. Horses for courses.
I wish them the best.
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Old 02-25-2017   #60
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What's with all the negativity? I think this is a great incentive for getting young people into film shooting. Also, millennials are not substantively different from us old folks. I work with them all day long. They're fine.


The negativity can be broken down to the old fart classification. There are two types: standard cheerful old farts (most of us here), and the curmudgeonly old farts who don't want others - i.e. young people - to discover film photography so they can lord over them how they are not real photographers cuz they shoot iphones/digital. It's almost like they want film to die with them.
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Old 02-25-2017   #61
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Exactly.
It is a good project.
And the product is not replacing, but just supplementing the standard JOBO, Paterson and AP tanks. Horses for courses.
I wish them the best.

That's the way I look at it and if it brings in some new B&W film users in to the fold, it will be a good thing for all of us.
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Old 02-25-2017   #62
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Film IS dead ... but we need to process what little of it remains.

G
.... :P But there's still some being produced new.
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Old 02-26-2017   #63
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Looks like this will probably break through €400,000 today (with 29 days to go).
In other words, pretty soon a half-million dollars for this project!
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Old 02-27-2017   #64
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.... :P But there's still some being produced new.
Nothing in what I said implied that there was no film being produced today. Sure is, but it's a tiny amount compared to what was being produced even a decade ago.
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Old 02-27-2017   #65
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Nothing in what I said implied that there was no film being produced today. Sure is, but it's a tiny amount compared to what was being produced even a decade ago.
This sort of discussion never ends well, but I'm fascinated by some forum members' apparent need to rain on other peoples' parade.

I find it frankly amazing that this seemingly modest Kickstarter project is soon gonna break through a half-million dollars: it seems an inconceivably large amount for a daylight developing tool. Ten years ago there may well have been a lot more film being used - I have no idea. At that time, I wasn't even aware (or cared) whether film was still being made. For me the excitement of this project is just yet another sign that film has found its growing niche.

As I said, there's always - and I mean really always - at least one person who'll jump into any film-related thread and dampen the atmosphere. It might be a specific question asking for help with a particular button in Vuescan, and some forum member will be there to say that 'if you're converting your film to a digital format you should be shooting digital from the start', or it can be good news like this thread, or bad news saying a film type is being discontinued... It really doesn't matter - there's a wet blanket for every type of film-related thread.

Anyways, the Lab-Box project stands at around $425,000 (€401,000+) after four days. To me - a relative film newbie, with friends who've made the jump - that's just simply great news.
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Old 02-27-2017   #66
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This sort of discussion never ends well, but I'm fascinated by some forum members' apparent need to rain on other peoples' parade.

I find it frankly amazing that this seemingly modest Kickstarter project is soon gonna break through a half-million dollars: it seems an inconceivably large amount for a daylight developing tool. Ten years ago there may well have been a lot more film being used - I have no idea. At that time, I wasn't even aware (or cared) whether film was still being made. For me the excitement of this project is just yet another sign that film has found its growing niche.

As I said, there's always - and I mean really always - at least one person who'll jump into any film-related thread and dampen the atmosphere. It might be a specific question asking for help with a particular button in Vuescan, and some forum member will be there to say that 'if you're converting your film to a digital format you should be shooting digital from the start', or it can be good news like this thread, or bad news saying a film type is being discontinued... It really doesn't matter - there's a wet blanket for every type of film-related thread.

Anyways, the Lab-Box project stands at around $425,000 (€401,000+) after four days. To me - a relative film newbie, with friends who've made the jump - that's just simply great news.
Pretty sure he wasn't raining on anyone else's parade here, just stating an objective fact. I doubt there was any implied dampening of film enthusiasm here since he had already taken the time and effort to detail his film processing technique with a Rondinax earlier in this same thread.

Anyway, it is encouraging to see the success of this project.
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Old 02-27-2017   #67
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Pretty sure he wasn't raining on anyone else's parade here, just stating an objective fact.
Yep - my point is simply this: it's not always necessary to jump into a thread and state those 'objective' facts.

Sometimes a person can see a thread like this, and think to themselves "Well not as much film is being used now as ten years ago - but hey, maybe I don't need to jump into just this particular thread and state that objective fact. Hmmm - I'm gonna let it go, and find another thread I can contribute to in some meaningful way."

That's how I see it anyway. And naturally this was FAR from being a bad example of what I mean. It's just Monday morning, the Kickstarter just keeps growing and growing, and I felt I'd had enough of RFF's unnecessary negativity.
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Old 02-27-2017   #68
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Yep - my point is simply this: it's not always necessary to jump into a thread and state those 'objective' facts.
You have me confused. If you read the contents in their entirety - the same poster also states that he currently uses a Rondinax, has contributed to the start up fund and posted his formula on how he currently uses his Rondinax to process film. In short, he supports the Light Box project.
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Old 02-27-2017   #69
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This side conversation is damn funny.

Yes, it is extremely encouraging to see the success of the Lab Box on Kickstarter! Yay! Now get a sense of humor and enjoy the day!

G
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Old 02-27-2017   #70
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Yep - my point is simply this: it's not always necessary to jump into a thread and state those 'objective' facts.
.
Why are there scare quotes around the word "objective"? To differentiate from the other kind?
Seems a bit odd, decrying the placement of objective facts into a discussion. To me.
Or 'objective' facts. Perhaps those are the worse ones.
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Old 02-27-2017   #71
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Why are there scare quotes around the word "objective"? To differentiate from the other kind?
Seems a bit odd, decrying the placement of objective facts into a discussion. To me.
Or 'objective' facts. Perhaps those are the worse ones.
(bolded) LOL!!!

G
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Old 02-27-2017   #72
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Quite remarkable figures as quoted:€400,592 pledged of €70,000 goal
3,049 backers 29 days to go.

When completed Ferrania Kickstarter had:5,582 backers pledged $322,420 to help bring this project to life.
Note Dollars and Euros so not directly equivalent: Euro equivalent 303,525
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Old 02-28-2017   #73
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This side conversation is damn funny.

Yes, it is extremely encouraging to see the success of the Lab Box on Kickstarter! Yay! Now get a sense of humor and enjoy the day!

G
Hahahaha the 'get a sense of humor' internet reply went out of fashion from overuse about ten years ago.

In any case, the Kickstarter is at almost $447,000 after 5 days. I'd say definitely gonna go through half a million dollars before the deadline. Totally unbelievable.

To answer another 'side conversation' - I put 'objective' in inverted commas because these supposedly 'objective' facts don't tell the whole story. Let's suppose this Kickstarter had happened ten years ago - when a lot more film was being sold compared to the "tiny amount" now - how successful would the project have been then? How many Lab-Boxes would've sold even five years ago, when there was so much (frankly enthusiastic) chatter about film finally dying with the Kodak bankruptcy.

Anyway, yeah - the RFF negativity train rumbles onwards as usual. Just been reading in another thread that the reason Contax T2 and T3 prices are going sky-high is because they can't be repaired anymore and are in their "death throes" LOL. If nothing else, the grumpy old men of RFF can always find a grey cloud for every silver lining...
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Old 02-28-2017   #74
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Quite remarkable figures as quoted:€400,592 pledged of €70,000 goal
3,049 backers 29 days to go.

When completed Ferrania Kickstarter had:5,582 backers pledged $322,420 to help bring this project to life.
Note Dollars and Euros so not directly equivalent: Euro equivalent 303,525
It looks like the Lab Box will surpass the 500,000€ mark.

The Film Ferrania Kickstarter was in autumn 2014, so about two years ago.
The success of the Lab Box Kickstarter is another clear indicator that the film revival is getting stronger.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 03-03-2017   #75
roscoetuff
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I am delighted with the success of this Lab Box... and as a newly minted developer, can see how it might increase confidence among folks that they could in fact manage to do this whole "film thing". Whenever mine comes, however, I expect to have the whole down pat so that I'm just not impressed it will have the utility I'd want without the optional motor winder... as continuous rotation uses an amount of chemicals that are consistent with my Paterson tank, but the default approach uses twice the liquid. Convenience always has a price! Maybe Lab Box-II will solve that?

Maybe Film Ferrania's kickstarter was a piker by comparison 'cause they didn't go for 100 Euro chunks? Maybe the greater success simply follows as a result of Film Ferrania's success... and the same way it went with juice/tea companies: Timing plays a factor and the 2nd mover benefits to a greater degree.
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Old 03-03-2017   #76
greyelm
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This is a better link that will answer many of your questions.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ght-loading-fi
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Old 03-22-2017   #77
Skiff
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Only five days left.....for all who want one and have not ordered yet:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ght-loading-fi
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Old 03-23-2017   #78
newfilm
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Em... i'll pass, i had the original agfa dev tank that work the same that i eventually sold again (I assumed that tank was the inspiration of this one), due to the design the rotating nob is always bellow the liquid line and eventually the seal will leak (or maybe mine was worn out in some way?), and of course my biggest problem was that it give me surge line, weird, maybe is because the rotating thing that cause it.

right now I'm using the peterson tank with inversion and that seems to gives me the most consistent result.

Actually come to think of it, has anyone tried stand develop on this tank before? was curious would saying in different orientation actually would benefit from bromide drag?
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Old 03-28-2017   #79
HHPhoto
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Final spurt - just about 100 minutes left:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ght-loading-fi

Cheers, Jan
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